Low Cost VOIP Providers

[rickman]

SIP is "Session Initiation Protocol". It's the commonest way for
setting up and managing a VoIP call.

SIP uses a generalized "localpart@domainname" addressing system. If
you're using a VoIP provider to reach phones on the PSTN, you would
typically being contacting your VoIP provider and sending something
like "[email protected]" as the recipient ID. Your
provider would route the call to a PSTN switching interchange "near"
this 213-555-xxxx exchange, and then terminate the call onto the PSTN.

Obviously there is something going on that I don't understand. I am
picturing a small box, about the size of a router, which connects
between my phone and an Ethernet port on a router. I pick up the phone,
dial a number and the person at the other end says, "Hello", the call
has been connected. Where exactly would I enter such an ID?

This is the setup a friend has and pays $10 a month on top of her cell
phone bill. She gets unlimited calls and long distance to the best of
my knowledge. I'm looking for something like that. $10 a month would
be great.

You can also use SIP to make calls which go nowhere near the PSTN.
If, for example, you were to make a call addressed to
"[email protected]" (or whatever my Asterisk server's hostname
is) the call would end up being routed to my Asterisk server over the
Internet, and then to one of my SIP softphones (e.g. here at work),
and would never go over the PSTN.

You can make such "direct" SIP calls without having a VoIP provider at
all, in a strictly peer-to-peer fashion... you just need to know the
right address. Such calls can be made "for free" (i.e. they're just
data on your broadband connection).

Ok, this is what I'm thinking the Future Nine web site means by "SIP
calls", but who knows? Their site is obtuse and incomplete..., VERY
incomplete.

Nope. It's entirely possible for you to *make* calls over SIP, which
are then terminated to the PSTN, without having a DID (phone number)
to which calls can be made.

I don't get what you mean. What is "terminated to the PSTN"? You mean
the call goes to a phone on the PSTN, otherwise known as a land line?
How do you do that without a phone number, especially if you are using a
phone? Oh, you mean "I" don't have to have a phone number for outgoing
calls. Ok, I hadn't considered that since I am looking to replace a
standard phone with calls going both ways.

Ok, so that is still a bit unclear. Their pay as you go plan is "free"
with a $5/month fee for the phone number while their "Bare Essentials"
plan is just $7 a month but with a "free" phone number. So they are
only charging $2 a month for 250 minutes of outgoing calls. An odd way
of doing it, but I suppose there might be pay as you go customers who
don't need a phone number (commercial service) while the other plans
exclude commercial service.

The same is true in reverse. You can sign up for a DID, and for
inbound-call service (i.e. PSTN -> DID -> SIP -> your device), without
having the authority to make any *outbound* calls at all.

You'll pay monthly (usually) for having an inbound DID number, for
E911 service, and for a directory listing. You may pay a flat fee per
month, or per-minute, or both, for actual calls made and/or received.

This separation of "inbound call" and "outbound call" service is a bit
different than landline-phone users are used to thinking of. It's a
bit more complex but can have benefits.

Depending on rates and costs, you may want to have DID inbound
service from one company, and outbound-call service from one or more
other companies (better rates and coverage). One down-side to doing
this, is that you usually won't be able to persuade your "outbound
call" provider to place your "inbound DID" phone number in the
outbound calls' CallerID headers. If I call somebody using my Future
Nine account (outbound-only) the receipient sees a generic number
located somewhere in the midwest, not any of my own numbers.

Yes, it is *very* complex until someone explains it clearly. I think
this is the best I have seen to date. The part that bugs me about
Future Nine is that the web site sucks so bad and it looks like I would
be left on my own, no phone support, no email, no contact at all. I
don't want any headaches.

They talk about taking your phone unit with you on trips. Is it a
simple matter to change the E911 setup when you go other places? I
would likely be taking it between two locations and would want a *very*
simple way to adjust the E911 setup on hooking it up. At one location
it would be the most reliable means of reaching emergency services, so I
want that to work.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Rick,

On 8/14/2013 10:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Somewhere this is going right past everyone. I'm not asking about any
of the technical details of how the VOIP phones work. I'm asking about
what the vendor means when they say "Free outgoing SIP calls". Clearly
the user doesn't need to know anything about call setup and teardown or
what CODEC is being used. It's a phone. You make calls with it. When

Ah, there's the flaw in your assumption!

You *do* need to know these things! Else your SIP phone won't
talk to their SIP service!! :> You want to just pick up a phone
and be able to dial? There's a system for that: it's called POTS!

the user wants to know if he is being billed for a given call how does
he know if it is a "SIP" call according to the statement on the web
page? Does that mean you are calling another Internet phone and not
going through the PSTN?

You can call "whatever can be reached". If they only allow SIP URI's,
then your destination will be expressed in a form <foo>@<bar>.
E.g., a google voice phone number is <number>@sip.voice.google.com
(similar to an FTP, HTTP, HTTPS, etc. URI)

If they tell you how to configure an ATA for use with their service,
then you can pretty much expect to be able to just *dial* a PSTN
number (though the quality of the connection may vary greatly
over the course of the day or even the course of the *call*!)

Some providers will not have bridges to the PSTN. So, if your
destination can't be reached *entirely* over IP, you're SOL.
Most full featured providers have provisions to get you back
out to the PSTN. (People aren't patient enough to deal with the
"we're sorry, the party you are calling is not on our network"
crap, anymore.)

Try it and see. There are PC based SIP clients that should
allow you to use your PC as a "telephone" (even if you have
to resort to using a microphone and speakers instead of
a real handset)

All in all I am very unimpressed by the Future Nine web site. I don't
want to become an IT expert at VOIP. I want to buy a phone, sign up for
a plan, have it work and understand what it will cost me. That's all
I'm asking. Is that too much? I thought for some reason that this is a
place where I might find someone who has gone through all the "stuff" of
finding a decent service and save myself a little trouble. I guess
that's one advantage of Ooma, it just works and I don't have to learn
how it all operates.

You're paying them to sell you a product that is preconfigured
to talk to *their* servers! (can you later reconfigure it to
use someone *else's* servers?? dunno...)

 

[rickman]

I do much the same thing. I have a Linksys/Sipura SP921 at home, an
SPA 941 in the office, a Linksys PAP2 box for travel, and various
"soft phone" programs to run on the laptops and smartphones. They're
all on the same phone number. If you call my VoIP number, they all
ring. Of course, I can't call OUT on all the phones at the same time,
but since I'm the only one using the phones, it's not a problem.

I hadn't considered having multiple units at the different locations.
That could work for me. One unit set up all the time at one location
and a second unit for traveling. Yes, that could work great. Can you
even call yourself from one location to another or would it just ring
busy? lol

Ummm... do the jitter testing anyway. It's easy enough.

Some of my comments on Comcast bandwidth limiting and jitter.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=ba.broadcast/eHzRSfYQGvs/c04RtFDcAq0J>

However, if you have Comcast Xfinity phone service for the home, the
VoIP traffic is on a completely seperate RF channel from the internet
traffic. The internet can be comatose, and the phone service will
still be up. The Arris home internet/phone routers include a built in
battery for backup. For business class, you get two separate boxes
for internet and phone. With this separation of traffic, Comcast
really doesn't care about VoIP traffic on their internet service, when
they're in business to sell it to you separately.

My service is through a very small outfit (one guy I believe) off a
private tower using a 900 MHz radio link. I"m in the center of nowhere
basically and this is much better than satellite. I haven't found out
who he deals with for his connections. I'd love to get involved with
him. He seems to know how to make it all work, but he is no businessman
and especially no salesperson. In fact just the opposite, he drives
business away.

No, you need to determine if you need a full service provider, with
lots of support, or a cheap provider with an Asterisk box in the
closet.


Others have explained SIP quite adequately.

No, they have explained SIP as if I were building a system. I'm not,
I'm a user... at least for now.

If you're going to dive
into the VoIP quagmire, be advised that things are very different on
the telephone side of electronic fence. For example, everything is an
acronym. Every vendor has a different acronym for essentially the
same protocol and service. There are many ways to do simple things,
most of which are incompatible with each other. A good telecom
dictionary will be useful.

I don't need a dictionary, I need a supplier that knows how to talk to
*people*.

Again, others have already explained this.

No, that's the problem, they haven't, at least until I read one of
David's posts.

Very simply, if you want
to talk to someone, you can do it directly (SIP to SIP),

Again, this has no meaning to me since it doesn't fit the image in my
mind. You seem to have a different picture of making phone calls. I'm
guessing you are thinking in terms of some application on a PC or
something similar. I'm thinking of a phone that connects to a little
box that connects to the Internet.

indirectly
through a gateway to the PSTN, or through a service providers gateway.

Again, none of that means anything useful to me as a customer. If I
have to do anything more than dial a phone number I don't want it.

Along the way, you'll blunder into firewalls, STUN, STUNT, and TURN
servers, as well as RFC's for everything imaginable. (Aren't acronyms
wonderful)? To make it easy for users, there are also network to
network gateways:
<http://www.sipbroker.com/sipbroker/action/login>
and DNS directory servers.

Isn't it the job of the provider to figure all that out? Or are you
saying these are potential problems my Internet access provider might
create?

To make outgoing calls, your SIP phone will need a dial plan. Here's
mine:
(*xx|[3469]11|0|00|[2-9]xxxxxx|1xxx[2-9]xxxxxxS0|[2-9]xx[2-9]xxxxxxS0|xxxxxxxxxxxx.)
Note the general lack of an intuitive structure.

LOL! How do you punch the special chars into your phone?

However, little of this is really intended to be saved in the SIP
phone. My various Liksys boxes have NV memory, but no way to backup
or directly load settings into the phone. I would guess my SPA921 has
about 200 boxes to fill in. Defaults? Nope. Instead, you're
expected to have a TFTP server sitting at home or on the internet with
the settings stored. When you connect the phone to an internet
accessible LAN, it logs into the TFTP server, downloads the settings,
and provisions the phone.

Hint: If you don't want to deal with all this, find a vendor that
will do it for you.

Ok, so I assume this is *not* Future Nine?

You may not be able to do tricky things, like my
common ring, but at least you'll be sleeping at night instead of
hacking the SIP phone settings. I suggest trying Callcentric:
<http://www.callcentric.com>
I used to have an account with them before I learned enough about VoIP
to cause problems for the service provider. About $13/month. Note
that call in and call out are separate services.


You're being generous. Their site sucks. The support/faq section is
even worse. Like I mumbled... they're for users that can handle the
technology with minimum support.


Future-nine has good pricing and fairly good service. I don't care
about the web pile.

Hmmm... tracerout to incoming.future-nine.com shows 100 msec latency
and 15 hops through 4 server farms. Not the best route for VoIP. Also
try sip.future-nine.com and outgoing.future-nine.com. Check it from
your location to make sure it will work. This might also help:
<http://code.google.com/p/siphon/wiki/SIPSettings>

Ok, I think this is not the company for me. I want a phone, not a
gadget that I'll be constantly hacking with to keep it working.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Rick,

Obviously there is something going on that I don't understand. I am
picturing a small box, about the size of a router, which connects
between my phone and an Ethernet port on a router. I pick up the phone,
dial a number and the person at the other end says, "Hello", the call
has been connected. Where exactly would I enter such an ID?

You don't. You are limited to telephone numbers which that little
box ("ATA") will translate into a SIP URI of the form +<number>@telnum
(or, if it is a dedicated/proprietary device, it may convert it to
a special URI intended for use explicitly by it's own proxy server)

This is the setup a friend has and pays $10 a month on top of her cell
phone bill. She gets unlimited calls and long distance to the best of
my knowledge. I'm looking for something like that. $10 a month would
be great.


Ok, this is what I'm thinking the Future Nine web site means by "SIP
calls", but who knows? Their site is obtuse and incomplete..., VERY
incomplete.


I don't get what you mean. What is "terminated to the PSTN"? You mean
the call goes to a phone on the PSTN, otherwise known as a land line?

Yes. "Somewhere", there is a bridge located *near* (whatever that
means) the destination that you are trying to reach (ideally, so
it's a "local call" from that bridge to your destination). The
SIP protocol (messages) eventually results in that bridge *dialing*
a PSTN "phone number" on your behalf. And, connecting you to the
person who picks up the receiver! (it does this using regular SIP
messages to track the progress of the call/connection/disconnection)

How do you do that without a phone number, especially if you are using a
phone? Oh, you mean "I" don't have to have a phone number for outgoing
calls.

Exactly. You can't *receive* calls! You exist in IP-land and not
in PSTN-land ("But, for a small monthly fee, we will register your
PSTN phone number (or, SIP URI) so that you, too, can receive calls!")

Ok, I hadn't considered that since I am looking to replace a
standard phone with calls going both ways.

Ok, so that is still a bit unclear. Their pay as you go plan is "free"
with a $5/month fee for the phone number while their "Bare Essentials"
plan is just $7 a month but with a "free" phone number. So they are
only charging $2 a month for 250 minutes of outgoing calls. An odd way
of doing it, but I suppose there might be pay as you go customers who
don't need a phone number (commercial service) while the other plans
exclude commercial service.

They are letting you try to find the right price/service point based
on your expected needs.

Also note the fine print regarding the QoS quarantees that they
may (or, likely, may NOT) apply to each of these services! E.g.,
you might get an inexpensive (price) service only to discover it
is a *cheap* (quality) service -- high latency, one-way audio,
dropped connections, etc.

It's akin to the days of WATS lines where you literally had to
*pick* how you wanted to make each particular call to get the best
value.

Or, nowadays, having a "calling card" to handle certain long distance
calls while other LD calls may be handled by your regular carrier
(and "local" calls handled differently).

Yes, it is *very* complex until someone explains it clearly. I think
this is the best I have seen to date. The part that bugs me about
Future Nine is that the web site sucks so bad and it looks like I would
be left on my own, no phone support, no email, no contact at all. I
don't want any headaches.

They talk about taking your phone unit with you on trips. Is it a
simple matter to change the E911 setup when you go other places? I

E911 is how emergency services are notified of "where to find your
body". :> The phone also has to register itself (?) in its
new location for inward dialing (i.e., so your provider knows how
to send IP packets *to* your phone regardless of what your current
IP address happens to be)

 

[Joerg]

I've had not a problem with Ooma and number porting... everything went
smoothly, and faster than they predicted.

We do lay caregiving as one of our volunteer activities. Some of that
happens in person, some over long distance phone. So we have lined up
discount options because those sessions can be 1-1/2h regularly. One
person has signed up for a "deal" where the landline was dropped. Since
that time the discount carriers can no longer dial into that number.

Another example is at a large enterprise. They have a 1-866 service for
phone conferencing. Probably also some supposedly "good deal". 1-866
should be toll-free, right? Well, one fine day I got a message
"Deedle-deedle-dee ... We are sorry, this number requires a toll
connection".

 

[RobertMacy]

All those annoying call hide behind a CLEC. But so do a lot of legit
businesses. I wouldn't hang up on them immediately unless you are
forcing them to go to voicemail. Rachel from Credit Card Services
doesn't like voicemail.

My wife suspects Rachel...


Some intrepid soul on the Win98 group [I think 98Guy] made all his
answering machines answer with that irritating tone that your phone is no
longer an active telephone line, and then would transfer on through to
ring you.

Friends knew to wait.

Telemarketers took the number off their lists.

 

[Joerg]

Ooma? Or are you just whistling negatives?

Not Ooma. I was talking about people who went to VoIP deals. I am not
whistling, those are things that really happened.

The only issues I've heard of are recalcitrant land-line companies
refusing the porting, or uncooperative and slo-o-o-ow.

You're in Californica... need I say more ?>:-}

And no, not just in California. One recent case was in Ohio.

 

[Joerg]

Going cheap will get you screwed >:-}

Like I said before, not the cheapest, but works great...

First of May I changed from Centurylink (nee Qwest) to Ooma. I went
Premier, so I'm effectively $12.28/month (each line, I have two,
prepaid rate).

Nice features, including a personalized reject list, since the Federal
DoNotCall is a farce.

Internet down? Automatically forwards to my cellphone.

In Phoenix and surroundings that's possible. Out here, less so. We live
so far outside metropolis that cell coverage is spotty. Internet doesn't
go down as much as it used to but I would not want to rely on it.

The real comeuppance for most people who ditched their landlines happens
during a power outage and due to frequent wildfires we do have those.
This is why there is an old POTS phone-phone here in my office plus a
few spares in the garage. Internet and cordlesss phones will go down
instantly, cell towers may last a few hours but usually no more. I've
never had the landline go out.

For me it's important to be able to continue GoToMeeting or similar if
the power goes. Then I just dial in via landline.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

The real comeuppance for most people who ditched their landlines happens
during a power outage and due to frequent wildfires we do have those.
This is why there is an old POTS phone-phone here in my office plus a
few spares in the garage. Internet and cordlesss phones will go down
instantly, cell towers may last a few hours but usually no more. I've
never had the landline go out.

Agreed. The phone service *within* our house is moving to "over IP"
(though not strictly VoIP -- as I just deal with phones as "audio
devices" in much the same way I deal with "speakers" on the network).

But, there will be a bridge between the PSTN (landline) and the house
so I can avail myself of the high availability associated with that
legacy network while augmenting it (internally) with features that
wouldn't typically be available on a wired landline.

Unfortunately, I haven't found an FXS/FXO device that I'm happy with,
yet, and not sure I want to go down the "certification road" :<
One of the big issues is being able to fall back to an all-copper
connection between *a* handset and the CO -- for those cases when
power fails (UPS exhausted) or something else breaks. I want a
regular WE phone with a mechanical ringer (distinctive, nowadays)
to keep me "connected" and *aware* of the outage.

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

For me it's important to be able to continue GoToMeeting or similar if
the power goes. Then I just dial in via landline.

I'm far more concerned about getting EMS when/if I *need* it
("seconds count").

Our utilities are buried, here -- for the most part. Which tends to
keep the "up" more (except CATV which is barely 6 inches below
grade). OTOH, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition about
planting trees "wherever". I imagine root growth has probably been
responsible for several cable outages and wonder how long it will
be before a buried telephone trunk (hundreds of pairs) falls
victim?

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



Agreed. The phone service *within* our house is moving to "over IP"
(though not strictly VoIP -- as I just deal with phones as "audio
devices" in much the same way I deal with "speakers" on the network).

VoIP in the house is fine, as long as that doesn't use the regular
Ethernet. That's the problem in companies, they get suckered into deals
"Oh, it'll be low cost, we can use your existing LAN" and then they have
to live through phases of dismal voice quality.

But, there will be a bridge between the PSTN (landline) and the house
so I can avail myself of the high availability associated with that
legacy network while augmenting it (internally) with features that
wouldn't typically be available on a wired landline.

Unfortunately, I haven't found an FXS/FXO device that I'm happy with,
yet, and not sure I want to go down the "certification road" :<
One of the big issues is being able to fall back to an all-copper
connection between *a* handset and the CO -- for those cases when
power fails (UPS exhausted) or something else breaks. I want a
regular WE phone with a mechanical ringer (distinctive, nowadays)
to keep me "connected" and *aware* of the outage.

Just keep an older phone plugged in at all times.

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

What other color would you want?

I'm far more concerned about getting EMS when/if I *need* it
("seconds count").

Yes, that's the other advantage. People ditching their landlines usually
don't think about all this. It doesn't have to be the ambulance, it
could be something more simple, like getting the advice nurse on the
phone after a spider bite. If all you have left is the cell phone and
the tower already ran out of juice this can become harrowing.

Our utilities are buried, here -- for the most part. Which tends to
keep the "up" more (except CATV which is barely 6 inches below
grade). OTOH, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition about
planting trees "wherever". I imagine root growth has probably been
responsible for several cable outages and wonder how long it will
be before a buried telephone trunk (hundreds of pairs) falls
victim?

Not sure if it's done that way in the US but in Europe we learned to do
it this way: Make a trench much wider than needed. Fill with sand, lay
cable but in a way that it meanders a wee bit, more sand, then top it
off with thin bricks of commensurate width. The bricks won't let roots
get through but will also prevent a sharp whack with a shovel. The sand
has little nutrition in it even after years so roots don't like it much.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

Ummm... I think it's called a relay. Connect the solenoid to
something that monitors AC power, such as a common wall wart. The
contacts switch the POTS phone from the ATA when energized, to the
POTS line when the power drops.

Too trivial a control algorithm. You need to be able to "drop"
(in your example) the relay even when power is available (if
you sense something else has compromised the internal phone service).
Also, consuming electricity 24/7 to protect against something that
isn't *expected* to happen is wasteful. Smarter to use a latching
relay with a power reserve that you can "pulse" the latch/release
coil as needed.

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

Model 500, 1500, or 2500 phone? I vaguely recall some vendor selling
replacement cords in assorted colors. I just tried "red telephone
coil cord" on eBay search with lots of hits including "vintage" WE
cords (for $12 to $25/ea ouch).

<http://www.ericofon.com/catalog/classic3/images/trimline/wall/trw_green.jpg>

Phone has to reside *in* a closet (I don't want to "see"
any phones in the house!) and only accessed in times of
service outages, etc.

We just had Comcast business class service installed in our office
building. They had to run the coax across the roadway. The service
was highly reliable for exactly one week, when the city decided to
replace a sewer line, and dug up the Comcast cable.

Here, runs across the street are less than 2 inches into
the asphalt! E.g., it is not uncommon to come across an
"exposed" cable -- esp along the sides of the roadway,
away from the crown (more tire wear).

In this block, two such lines were recently reburied.
I suspect we'll be seeing them, again, sometime after
the winter rains...

The actual cable *feed* is barely down a foot along the
side of the roadway. It's been patched *twice* in front
of our house in the years we've lived here. No idea
how often it has failed elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Seeing individual feeds to residences ON TOP of the soil
(for months or years -- permanent tempporary fix!) is
not uncommon. And you want to rely on this for *what*??

I live in earthquake country. I'm visualizing thousands of wire
breaks after the next earthquake.

Uncle used to run a CO. Three memorable things from a private
tour he gave me as a kid:
- the room in the basement where *all* the lines come in
(think sewer pipe full of copper wires!)
- the room upstairs where all these individual pairs are
fanned out for access/interconnect
- the little jet engine in the shed out back that ran the
backup generator

Incidentally, the main PG&E natural gas line runs down the street in
front of my office. It's the same type that ruptured and blew up in
San Bruno in 2010. Yep, trees everywhere but I'm good at ignoring
impending disasters.

They just replaced the gas service throughout the neighborhood
this year. All new service drops, feeds, etc. I think they
are down a minimum of 36 inches *and* located under the roadway.
So, while a tree's root crown can easily be several feet "tall"
(thick? vertically), it's unlikely that any sizable roots would
be able to get at the pipes, there.

(though we've had contractors rip up lines through careless
use of back hoes...)

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Don Y wrote:

Just keep an older phone plugged in at all times.

Then that phone rings all the time! :< Did I mention I consider
a telephone (doorbell, etc.) to be an *interruption* and don't
think "others" should have the final say on whether and when I
am "interrupted"? :>

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

What other color would you want?

In this case, green (see URL in my reply to Jeff). Not my ideal
choice of color. Rather, dictated by the type of phone that I
wanted and what I had available in my "telephone stash".

Yes, that's the other advantage. People ditching their landlines usually
don't think about all this. It doesn't have to be the ambulance, it
could be something more simple, like getting the advice nurse on the
phone after a spider bite. If all you have left is the cell phone and
the tower already ran out of juice this can become harrowing.

Or, your (cell) *battery* dies while you're in mid sentence!! (oops!)

Not sure if it's done that way in the US but in Europe we learned to do
it this way: Make a trench much wider than needed. Fill with sand, lay
cable but in a way that it meanders a wee bit, more sand, then top it
off with thin bricks of commensurate width. The bricks won't let roots
get through but will also prevent a sharp whack with a shovel. The sand
has little nutrition in it even after years so roots don't like it much.

It's called "shading". Different utilities require it to different
extents -- no doubt related to the value of protecting the line!

E.g., gas mains are shaded 12" or more on all sides. Electric
is 6", I think. Goal is to prevent rocks and other "hard things"
from approaching the service line and physically damaging it
(e.g., a rock slowly being pressed into a gas main and causing
a small fracture -- gas then follows the pipe in each direction
until it can find an outlet... in a home, etc.)

We're very dry, here. So, plants go out of their way to exploit
any water sources available. Soil has a high clay content so
it doesn't drain well. Nor does water seep *into* it -- unless
it has already been disturbed (e.g., by someone digging a trench!).
Once water has a way to get down to a certain depth, it will pool
*at* that depth -- draining dreadfully slowly.

[When I planted the first orange tree, I initially dug a 4'x4'x4'
hole. (I was told, "imagine you are carving a flower pot out of
the soil... how big a pot do you think a *tree* needs?") You could
fill this hole with water and it would still be there *days* later!
I.e., "it's not deep enough -- keep digging until you break through
the clay layer..."]

 

[Don Y]

Hi Michael,

Is that modular, or does it have spade lugs?

Modular on both ends (there were some products that had a funky
flat & wide connector on the handset end)

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



Then that phone rings all the time! :< Did I mention I consider
a telephone (doorbell, etc.) to be an *interruption* and don't
think "others" should have the final say on whether and when I
am "interrupted"? :>

Well, just use a relay then. Safest might be a wall wart and a low
voltage relay. It can also be fed from some other apparatus that would
blitz off when power is lost. But reduce the relay current after
engagement to a safe hold current so it doesn't become too hot.

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

What other color would you want?

In this case, green (see URL in my reply to Jeff). Not my ideal
choice of color. Rather, dictated by the type of phone that I
wanted and what I had available in my "telephone stash".

Just get a beige phone?

In Germany I had a green phone on my fax line. It came with black cords
which looked good. Otherwise SWMBO would have said something.

Or, your (cell) *battery* dies while you're in mid sentence!! (oops!)

At least you can charge it from the car battery.

It's called "shading". Different utilities require it to different
extents -- no doubt related to the value of protecting the line!

E.g., gas mains are shaded 12" or more on all sides. Electric
is 6", I think. Goal is to prevent rocks and other "hard things"
from approaching the service line and physically damaging it
(e.g., a rock slowly being pressed into a gas main and causing
a small fracture -- gas then follows the pipe in each direction
until it can find an outlet... in a home, etc.)

We're very dry, here. So, plants go out of their way to exploit
any water sources available. Soil has a high clay content so
it doesn't drain well. Nor does water seep *into* it -- unless
it has already been disturbed (e.g., by someone digging a trench!).
Once water has a way to get down to a certain depth, it will pool
*at* that depth -- draining dreadfully slowly.

Probably good policy to run the auger every few feet and drill down a
bit more from the bottom of the trench, then fill those holes with
gravel and sand.

[When I planted the first orange tree, I initially dug a 4'x4'x4'
hole. (I was told, "imagine you are carving a flower pot out of
the soil... how big a pot do you think a *tree* needs?") You could
fill this hole with water and it would still be there *days* later!
I.e., "it's not deep enough -- keep digging until you break through
the clay layer..."]

However, then you lose a lot of water because it gets slurped into the
lower layers where it does no good in watering plants.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

What other color would you want?

In this case, green (see URL in my reply to Jeff). Not my ideal
choice of color. Rather, dictated by the type of phone that I
wanted and what I had available in my "telephone stash".

Just get a beige phone?

Hard finding a trimline *wall* phone with a mechanical ringer.
And, the integrated "dual stud" mounting. Ideally, WE and not
some crap clone. (i.e., do I spend my time finding a phone
or a coiled cord? :> )

In Germany I had a green phone on my fax line. It came with black cords
which looked good. Otherwise SWMBO would have said something.

Currently has a long (25'?) green cord. But, I want a *short* cord
as it hangs on the wall, reasonably close to the ground (so I don't
want the excess coiled cord spooling on the ground beneath it).

It's out of sight so I've replaced the long cord with a black
short cord (more in line with the cords you would find on a
500 series desk set). But, it will bug me that it's not
"right"... :-/

At least you can charge it from the car battery.

Sure! As long as the spider's venom isn't fast acting! :>

Probably good policy to run the auger every few feet and drill down a
bit more from the bottom of the trench, then fill those holes with
gravel and sand.

Thats what I did with all the (hand dug) holes for the various
valve boxes (irrigation) scattered around the yard. Poured a
small concrete slab *under* each set of valves (so there is a
"finished" surface to support them and keep the soil from
intruding) with a weep hole in the center that feeds a bed
of sand *beneath* the slab.

So, heavy rains (think Monsoon) and/or leaking valves don't
result in a water-filled hole!

[When I planted the first orange tree, I initially dug a 4'x4'x4'
hole. (I was told, "imagine you are carving a flower pot out of
the soil... how big a pot do you think a *tree* needs?") You could
fill this hole with water and it would still be there *days* later!
I.e., "it's not deep enough -- keep digging until you break through
the clay layer..."]

However, then you lose a lot of water because it gets slurped into the
lower layers where it does no good in watering plants.

For water to percolate through 4 ft of soil, the tree has had
a good deal of time to absorb that moisture "on its way down"
(an inch of water will penetrate soil to a depth of 10 inches).

You don't want the roots to sit in "pooled" water (it leads to
"root rot"). Also, you want the water to end up *below* the
roots so you can flush the salts down below their level
(e.g., we water the citrus by quickly filling the earthen "basin"
that surrounds the tree with water to a 3" depth. Let it drain.
Then repeat -- twice more.) It appears to make a big difference
in the health of the trees and quality of the fruit. Neighbors
(same microclimate) who water regularly don't have anywhere near
the yield (nor sweetness) that we get.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Michael,

I may still have a hundred or so, if you don't need 25'.

Gack! *Green*? (I've probably got a hundred black, white, beige,
etc. but no *green*) I *don't* want 25'. I want a SHORT cord
(i.e., so that *coiled* it is perhaps 2 ft long?). Phone is
mounted about 3 ft above the "floor" so I want the cord to
"remain dangling" at all times instead of curling up on the
floor...

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jeff,

Ummm... I think it's called a relay. Connect the solenoid to
something that monitors AC power, such as a common wall wart. The
contacts switch the POTS phone from the ATA when energized, to the
POTS line when the power drops.

Too trivial a control algorithm. You need to be able to "drop"
(in your example) the relay even when power is available (if
you sense something else has compromised the internal phone service).
Also, consuming electricity 24/7 to protect against something that
isn't *expected* to happen is wasteful. Smarter to use a latching
relay with a power reserve that you can "pulse" the latch/release
coil as needed.

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

Model 500, 1500, or 2500 phone? I vaguely recall some vendor selling
replacement cords in assorted colors. I just tried "red telephone
coil cord" on eBay search with lots of hits including "vintage" WE
cords (for $12 to $25/ea ouch).

<http://www.ericofon.com/catalog/classic3/images/trimline/wall/trw_green.jpg>

Make sure your phone company will support pulse dial for the foreseeable
future.

Phone has to reside *in* a closet (I don't want to "see"
any phones in the house!) and only accessed in times of
service outages, etc.

In order to keep in sync with your level of automation provide a little
slot in the wall, with a big fat electrolytic down in there somewhere.
Power goes (or you push some button) ... *THWOCK* ... a flap falls down
.... phssssssssst .. click ... phone automagically glides out of wall and
locks into emergency position.

Here, runs across the street are less than 2 inches into
the asphalt! E.g., it is not uncommon to come across an
"exposed" cable -- esp along the sides of the roadway,
away from the crown (more tire wear).

In this block, two such lines were recently reburied.
I suspect we'll be seeing them, again, sometime after
the winter rains...

The actual cable *feed* is barely down a foot along the
side of the roadway. It's been patched *twice* in front
of our house in the years we've lived here. No idea
how often it has failed elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Seeing individual feeds to residences ON TOP of the soil
(for months or years -- permanent tempporary fix!) is
not uncommon. And you want to rely on this for *what*??

That's what has kept me from the much faster cable TV Internet. The
previous owners had cable TV and the just plopped the cable into the
landscape. Zero inch burying depth. Here and there one can see tooth
marks from who knows which critter.

DSL is hopelessly behind in technology out here. 1.2Mbit/sec down and
256k up.

Uncle used to run a CO. Three memorable things from a private
tour he gave me as a kid:
- the room in the basement where *all* the lines come in
(think sewer pipe full of copper wires!)
- the room upstairs where all these individual pairs are
fanned out for access/interconnect
- the little jet engine in the shed out back that ran the
backup generator

There wasn't the usual carton of contact spray cans in a corner?

[...]

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

What other color would you want?

In this case, green (see URL in my reply to Jeff). Not my ideal
choice of color. Rather, dictated by the type of phone that I
wanted and what I had available in my "telephone stash".

Just get a beige phone?

Hard finding a trimline *wall* phone with a mechanical ringer.

Why a mechanical ringer?

And, the integrated "dual stud" mounting. Ideally, WE and not
some crap clone. (i.e., do I spend my time finding a phone
or a coiled cord? :> )

Here's several of them:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Uniden-1100BK-Slimline-Corded-Phone-Black/21805373

But if it has to be Western Electric (probably made in China these days
anyhow), dual-stud (whatever that is), green and with mechanical ringer
then I guess it'll be the yard sale tour. Or thrift stores.

Currently has a long (25'?) green cord. But, I want a *short* cord
as it hangs on the wall, reasonably close to the ground (so I don't
want the excess coiled cord spooling on the ground beneath it).

It's out of sight so I've replaced the long cord with a black
short cord (more in line with the cords you would find on a
500 series desk set). But, it will bug me that it's not
"right"... :-/

Man, you are picky

Sure! As long as the spider's venom isn't fast acting! :>

A friend was bitten by a recluse. That was no fun at all, it can start
rotting your flesh away.

[...]

[When I planted the first orange tree, I initially dug a 4'x4'x4'
hole. (I was told, "imagine you are carving a flower pot out of
the soil... how big a pot do you think a *tree* needs?") You could
fill this hole with water and it would still be there *days* later!
I.e., "it's not deep enough -- keep digging until you break through
the clay layer..."]

However, then you lose a lot of water because it gets slurped into the
lower layers where it does no good in watering plants.

For water to percolate through 4 ft of soil, the tree has had
a good deal of time to absorb that moisture "on its way down"
(an inch of water will penetrate soil to a depth of 10 inches).

You don't want the roots to sit in "pooled" water (it leads to
"root rot"). Also, you want the water to end up *below* the
roots so you can flush the salts down below their level
(e.g., we water the citrus by quickly filling the earthen "basin"
that surrounds the tree with water to a 3" depth. Let it drain.
Then repeat -- twice more.) It appears to make a big difference
in the health of the trees and quality of the fruit. Neighbors
(same microclimate) who water regularly don't have anywhere near
the yield (nor sweetness) that we get.

Hmm, maybe that's why some trees here just don't want to catch. We have
bedrock very few feet below, some of it sticks out the surface. No
amount of TLC and fertilizing helps.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Don Y wrote:

[Actually, I've been looking for a new coiled cord for the WE phone
I've chosen as this "backup" but they only sell "vanilla" colors
for coiled cords, nowadays -- white, black, beige]

Model 500, 1500, or 2500 phone? I vaguely recall some vendor selling
replacement cords in assorted colors. I just tried "red telephone
coil cord" on eBay search with lots of hits including "vintage" WE
cords (for $12 to $25/ea ouch).

<http://www.ericofon.com/catalog/classic3/images/trimline/wall/trw_green.jpg>

Make sure your phone company will support pulse dial for the foreseeable
future.

So far, every place I have lived has been backward compatible in
that regard. E.g., I have an old handset from the early 20th
century (one of those HEAVY black *cast* phones) that still
works (I've been sorely tempted to put a little MCU inside it
to count dial pulses and generate touch tones -- just for the
head games it would play with users! I.e., you can understand
a pushbutton phone being able to generate DTMF or pulse. But,
having a *dial* phone generating DTMF? WTF???)

[I think pulse will work on noisier line conditions than DTMF.
Many years ago, we were having terrible phone service. Esp
with the dialup modems! (I *did* say "many years ago"!) A
tech came out to troubleshoot the line one day -- big orange?
box that monitors the condition of the line. He was just getting
ready to walk off with a shrug of his shoulders: "I don't see
anything wrong..." when the noise level shot through the roof.
I.e., you could barely hear *voice* on the line! I suspect I
would have still been able to dial out in those conditions
with the dial pulse phone! (tech ended up switching us to a
different pair and marking the old pair as out of service)]

In order to keep in sync with your level of automation provide a little
slot in the wall, with a big fat electrolytic down in there somewhere.
Power goes (or you push some button) ... *THWOCK* ... a flap falls down
.... phssssssssst .. click ... phone automagically glides out of wall and
locks into emergency position.

That would be cool if I could put it someplace "visible" (so it's
presence would tell me "something is wrong"). But, would require
a lot of work to make it "look good" in each scenario (retracted
and deployed) -- consider SWMBO. Not sure I would want to tackle
that (I have tried really hard to remove everything techy from the
walls, rooms, etc. Even removing the texture from the walls! :-/ )

I've been looking for a motorized projection screen that I could
recess into the ceiling in front of the bookshelves in the front
hallway. That would allow me to get rid of the TV in the living
room, too!

That's what has kept me from the much faster cable TV Internet. The
previous owners had cable TV and the just plopped the cable into the
landscape. Zero inch burying depth. Here and there one can see tooth
marks from who knows which critter.

Someone in the neighborhood is *always* complaining of an outage.
I don't know if this is a consequence of damage to the (shallow)
cables, faulty insulation/water penetration, etc.

And, they all have horror stories about trying to *contact*
the cable company for service (and, having to wait around
all day for someone to show up: "We'll have a guy there
between 8 and 5..." "Gee! Thanks! I was afraid he might
show up AFTER BEDTIME!!!")

DSL is hopelessly behind in technology out here. 1.2Mbit/sec down and
256k up.

We can easily get 12Mb service. I just don't like TPC (arrogant
bastards).

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Why a mechanical ringer?

You will *notice* a mechanical ringer. "What the hell is that noise?"
Not "yet another chirping cricket".

Here's several of them:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Uniden-1100BK-Slimline-Corded-Phone-Black/21805373

But if it has to be Western Electric (probably made in China these days
anyhow), dual-stud (whatever that is), green and with mechanical ringer
then I guess it'll be the yard sale tour. Or thrift stores.

Thrift stores are the route I've been taking. You can find lots
of cheap/crappy phones but few of the original WE units seem to
have survived (or, maybe folks just hold onto them?).

"Trimline" and "Princess" phones are relatively common. But, the
wall mounted variety seem harder to come by. I wouldn't trust
a traditional trimline mounted on a wall to retain the handset
(esp if you can't visually verify its placement "often")

Man, you are picky

Yeah, I also want both my shoes to be the same size! :>

A friend was bitten by a recluse. That was no fun at all, it can start
rotting your flesh away.

Yup. Lots of critters here that can make you very uncomfortable,
at the very least. My other half is very sensitive to scorpion
stings (e.g., a visit to the ER). I, OTOH, appear not to notice
them until some time later. <shrug>

I refuse to play chicken with the black widows, etc. And rattle
snakes, bob cats, bears, javelina, etc.

Hmm, maybe that's why some trees here just don't want to catch. We have
bedrock very few feet below, some of it sticks out the surface. No
amount of TLC and fertilizing helps.

We had rose bushes out by the front door. Never did well. I
finally decided to dig them up and plant something else in their
place (had been there from previous owner).

Imagine my thoughts when I discovered a slab of concrete about
12" beneath the soil level! "Sheesh! No wonder the damn things
never thrived!" (Apparently, builder had dumped all his surplus
concrete in that location, then covered it up with dirt...)