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lateral mosfets vs. bjts in audio amplifier design

E

Eeyore

Matching for one. I can't believe how dumb you guys are.

I've produced the product, you merely say masty things about it. We have
a word fot that here. TWAT.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
---
Really?

You make those claims and then, conveniently, fail to back them up
because of the restrictions you claim are placed upon you by copyright
and contractual limitations.

Fine. Pay me and I'll do something similar for you and you'll own the
copyright.

<snip bollocks>

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
ONE supplier indeed. How much does that gadget cost?

And how do you get 500 watts out of a TO-3 can? Put it under a fire
hose?

Ask my friend who makes them.

Graham
 
P

Phil Allison

"Eeysore the congenital LIAR "
(a) they're not 100 watt - in fact one supplier does a dual die 500W
device in
TO-3. With an internal copper heat speader btw.


** More arrant nonsense.

The dual chip, TO3 lateral devices are rated at 250 watts.



...... Phil
 
And it was developed under contract for a client so it's not really mine to give
away.



I don't care for Doug Self too much come to that. Long story.

Graham


You don't care for Doug Self? Then why, in the Class A thread, did
you point the OP to Doug Self's website???

Michael
 
K

Kevin Aylward

John said:
Either needs lots of negative feedback to be really linear, so THD+N
depends on the overall circuit design, not much on the final output
devices. It's generally easier to drive mosfets than bipolars, but in
audio bandwidths it doesn't matter much.

I don't really understand to what aspect you are referring to with this last
phrase. The low drive requirements of mosfets can be the difference between
a slow output triple and a simple low current class A buffer. This has a
major effect in the stabilization of the amp.




Kevin Aylward
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
www.blonddee.co.uk
www.anasoft.co.uk -SuperSpice
 
K

Kevin Aylward

John said:
Not too bad,

Yes. "not too bad" in the strict sense of the phrase. That is, it is a bad
design, but not so bad as to be totally unusable. However, this does depend
on the definition of "good" somewhat. Assuming we give meaning to the term
"average", then this design can not in any reasonable way be classed as a
"good" or even an average design". It is a quick knock up, that serious
audio designers don't even give a second look to, well except when
commenting on how bad it is.
except for the biasing. Iq could have been set by a
pot+resistor from IC1 pin 4 to 7, and the DC offset trim should be
into the opamp, not fighting it.

A "good" audio amp, imo, will have at most, only one trim pot, and this is
to set the output bias.
The biasing/crossover of this type of circuit is potentially perfect,
in that both stages run at some idle current and signal makes one pick
up,

For very high speed, audiophile performance, this output device
configuration is very poor. The gates of the transistors are connected via
two much speed lag. This usually results in very, large shot through
currents when hit by 100n pulses.
but leaves the opposite side idling. As opposed to a lot of
circuits where conduction on one side actively shuts off the other.

DC bias on the output fets depends on their thresholds, not so good;
closing local loops on the fets (with more opamps) would be better.

Oh...a sure-fire recipe for disaster, if done correctly...It will generate
additional de-stabilising poles. That particular technique can be useful for
reducing LF. distortion, but it does it at the expense of BW, i.e. higher HF
distortion. I would be surprised if this "design" could stand having its HF
IMD compromised any further.
Driving the load from the drains means the amp has a very high
open-loop output impedance,

Well, not so high in this particular case. Assuming a nominal early voltage
of 30V, at 1A would be 30 ohms. Its highly variable though.
which makes it harder to stabilize.

Can be. This is actually a bit subtle. Depending on just what the actuall
compansation is. A correctly designed amp will have a stabilastion load
network, in which case, the stability may well be dominated by a higher
frequency unity gain point In which case, it turns out that the high
frequency UGF of a source follower and a drain ouput is the same.
Flipping things over, driving from sources, makes the crossover
biasing more interesting and costs swing.

At least it's not the same old 40-year vintage class AB thing.

Maybe it should be. It would then, presumably have the output inductor and
|| resistor with an output RC zobel network, that is pretty much mandatory
for stability under all load conditions. I would also suggest looking at a
direct zener clamp on the mosfets.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go over the other considerable
shortcomings of this er.. "design":)

Kevin Aylward
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
www.blonddee.co.uk
www.anasoft.co.uk -SuperSpice
 
E

Eeyore

Phil said:
"Eeysore the congenital LIAR "

** More arrant nonsense.

The dual chip, TO3 lateral devices are rated at 250 watts.

Apologies. I was getting over-excited at the prospect.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

You don't care for Doug Self? Then why, in the Class A thread, did
you point the OP to Doug Self's website???

Because whatever I may feel about him, the info is good.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Kevin said:
I don't really understand to what aspect you are referring to with this last
phrase. The low drive requirements of mosfets can be the difference between
a slow output triple and a simple low current class A buffer. This has a
major effect in the stabilization of the amp.

Class A buffer for me, as for you too it would seem. Makes all the difference
taking the gate input capacitance off that node.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Kevin said:
A "good" audio amp, imo, will have at most, only one trim pot, and this is
to set the output bias.

I was delighted with the consistency of my D Series of bipolar amps. No trim
pots at all. Designed out in the design process. In fact the entire amp had not
one trimpot. That means faster production and final test plus a cost reduction.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

It would cost you LOTS more to build one yourself and you wouldn't replicate the
pcb pattern which can be critical for top performance.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
Finally, I'll add that even if you did manage to, somehow, produce the
documentation I'd suspect that, from your hemming and hawing and
absolute refusal to publish anything concrete, here, for us to view, it
wasn't work done by you in the first place.

Oh you're becoming like Phildo in aapl-s. Faced with evidence he simply says
'you made it up'.

Therefore there's absolutely no point in doing so.

Smarter people than you here understand what I'm saying.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Sorry it's dual die 250W in TO-3 but he does some larger devices too.

It's 500W in SOT227/ISOTOP
http://www.magnatec-uk.com/mosdata.shtml

Of course you're not free to tell us who that might be because the
volume of business that might generate for him would inundate him with
orders he couldn't fill and, therefore, drive him out of business.

Roger Bacon Managing Director of Magnatec and Semelab and I believe the owner or at
least the majority owner. I've known him for years.YES a British semiconductor maker.

http://www.magnatec-uk.com/latmos.shtml

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
---
You wish.

I cut my teeth on audio and was designing and building bridge amplifiers
in the early '60's, even before RCA came out with them, as I recall.

The world has moved on John.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
I'd argue
that adding an opamp per power fet makes things faster, stability
better, and compensation simpler, since the gate/Miller capacitance
disappears... each fet now looks like a very fast, pF input
capacitance, DC-perfect device, and essentially disappears from the
overall loop dynamics. Now just pile on as many opamp+fet pairs as you
need. DC balance and current sharing become as good as the opamp
offset voltages, microvolts if you like, so fet gate threshold
variations and transfer curves don't matter any more. So use very
small source resistors and cut losses.

It's certainly a very interesting topology.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jamie said:
Make sure you have a shovel, you'll need it for that hole
your about to dig for your self.

I'm quite sure that JF is far too out of touch with the technology currently
used in the best audio amplification.

Also, it has to be economic to manufacture. That's easily half of it.

Graham
 
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