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Jet streams could carry radioactivity from Japan to the US

N

Nobody

Is this the same "event" shown on NHK English broadcast.

The cabinet minister reported 400 mSv/hr, but the specialists present
on the same press conference said in a polite way that the minister
had mixed millisieverts and microsieverts.

The 400mSv/hr event (on the 13th) was real (at least, not retracted) but
localised and transient; that triggered the evacuation of non-essential
staff.

The[1] prefix mix-up was more recent, and related to "ongoing" levels.

[1] The one where the government official actually said mSv then
corrected. Cases where the media have confused the two (or confused
per-hour and per-year) are too numerous to count.
 
N

Nobody

Unfortunately, where fuel cycle radionucleides are concerned the average
radiation level doesn't really hack it. If it really is a smooth average
dose then fair enough but if there is particulate alpha emitting
material in the smoke then as hotspots in the lungs it can do a great
deal of harm.

+1

It's a bit like measuring the risk of being in the middle of a gunfight in
terms of atmospheric lead concentration.

Measuring radiation levels with a Geiger counter is reasonable enough for
determining the risk from direct exposure to plant workers. To measure the
risk to the public from pollution, you need to move a known amount of air
through a filter and see what it catches.
 
N

Nobody

Reasonably managed nuclear power is safe.

It also seems to be an oxymoron.

It's difficult to manage a very small risk with very serious consequences.
If you start with adequate safety margins, you can screw up quite a lot
and you'll probably get away with it most of the time. Probably.

This results in pressure to tolerate corner-cutting.

I suspect that Japan is more susceptible to this issue than the west.
Their emphasis on agreement and compromise may make for a orderly society,
but it doesn't necessarily make for sound nuclear safety policy. The
Confucianist notion that important people (e.g. CEOs) are owed deference
from the little people (which includes the bureaucrats who are supposed to
be regulating them) probably doesn't help.
Coal mines kill more people, and coal plants put more radiation into the
air, than nukes do. Oil rig workers die every year.

But those accidents aren't a danger to people who don't actually work in
those industries (i.e. most of the population). And people seem to think
that radiation from coal is just something the tree-huggers made up to try
to scare people away from coal.
Putting a nuke at sea level, in a tsunami zone, is sort of crazy. A
50-foot high plateau wouldn't have been a lot of dirt to move, and
would have saved the plants.

I don't know about the height issue. But putting 4 reactors next to each
other seems to have been an issue. A hydrogen explosion at #2 damaged the
pumps used to cool #3, operation of #3 was temporarily abandoned due to
radiation from the spent fuel pool at #4.

OTOH, I suppose that one exclusion zone is better than four.
 
C

Charlie E.

And, I imagine, in conditions which are at least halfway normal,
having the reactors in close proximity probably adds to the safety of
the operation. As long as at least one reactor is operating, it would
be producing far more power than is needed to keep the cooling pumps
in the other reactors functioning correctly.

The emergency diesel generators would be needed for this purpose only
if (1) all of the reactors are shut down at the same time and (2) the
power grid is sufficiently damaged that power cannot be brought in
from other power plants.

In effect, having multiple reactors on-site allows you to maintain
an extra level of backup for the cooling-pump power: your other
reactor(s), grid feed, and on-site generators.

Unfortunately, that's just what happened last week... the massive
damage from the quake and tsunami was enough to knock out all of these
power sources within a few minutes.

I wonder whether, paradoxically, it might even have been safer in this
case to leave one or more of the reactors running at reduced power
rather than hitting the SCRAM button on all of them... darned hard to
make a decision about that "in the moment", though.

Of course, I ain't there, but to me, I wonder...

Don't they have mobile diesel generators, like in their military?

Have they heard of fireships?

Can't they put a ship off shore, and run power lines from it to the
plant? Most ships have plenty of spare electrical power, esp.
military vessels.

How long to rehab those wet diesels?

At San Onefre (sp?) they have a 30 foot tsunami wall around the plant,
just in case!

Charlie
 
R

Rich Grise

Michael said:
The Crystal River nuclear power plant in Florida is 60+ feet above
sea level.
I didn't know there was anyplace in Florida that was at that high of an
elevation.

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

John said:
The Crystal River nuclear power plant in Florida is 60+ feet above
sea level.

The Diablo Canyon plant starts at about +80, but that's natural.
[/QUOTE]
In Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer," there's a reactor
that has the local NIMBYs up in arms, so the reactor folks get ordered to
hide it, based on "out of sight, out of mind," just to get the NIMBYs off
their back. So they build a big dirt dike, or berm, around the reactor just
in time to protect it when this big killer comet lands and devastates Earth
with tsunamis everywhere; the dike keeps the reactor dry, but it's about
the only thing on the planet that survives intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer's_Hammer

It's kind of long, and gets off to a slow start, but once you're past the
introductions of all the characters and scene-setting, it's sort of a
can't-put-it-down kind of story; Niven and Pournelle are always fun to
read!

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Charlie said:
And, I imagine, in conditions which are at least halfway normal,
having the reactors in close proximity probably adds to the safety of
the operation. As long as at least one reactor is operating, it would
be producing far more power than is needed to keep the cooling pumps
in the other reactors functioning correctly.

The emergency diesel generators would be needed for this purpose only
if (1) all of the reactors are shut down at the same time and (2) the
power grid is sufficiently damaged that power cannot be brought in
from other power plants.

In effect, having multiple reactors on-site allows you to maintain
an extra level of backup for the cooling-pump power: your other
reactor(s), grid feed, and on-site generators.

Unfortunately, that's just what happened last week... the massive
damage from the quake and tsunami was enough to knock out all of these
power sources within a few minutes.

I wonder whether, paradoxically, it might even have been safer in this
case to leave one or more of the reactors running at reduced power
rather than hitting the SCRAM button on all of them... darned hard to
make a decision about that "in the moment", though.

Of course, I ain't there, but to me, I wonder...

Don't they have mobile diesel generators, like in their military?

Have they heard of fireships?

Can't they put a ship off shore, and run power lines from it to the
plant? Most ships have plenty of spare electrical power, esp.
military vessels.

How long to rehab those wet diesels?

At San Onefre (sp?) they have a 30 foot tsunami wall around the plant,
just in case!
[/QUOTE]
It's not so much a wall as a cliff face, with the plant on top of the
plateau.

It's kind of fun driving down "The PCH (Pacific Coast Highway)", AKA
Highway 1; when you approach the plant, the first thing you see is the
tops of the reactor domes with those titty thingies on top; usually
someone in the car who hasn't seen it before will usually quip, "Hey!
Look! Dolly Parton's nude sunbathing!"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eW8U4L0niRE/SGfnZS5jtWI/AAAAAAAABfM/5noyC1tTJnY/s320/san+onofre.jpg

Cheers!
Rich

Cheers!
Rich
 
E

Ecnerwal

The Crystal River nuclear power plant in Florida is 60+ feet above
Mt Garbage (well, that's what I call their dump - I don't know what they
call it, or if they just pretend it's not there) near Miami is much
higher than that. I assume it's the highest (albeit somewhat variable)
point in South Florida.
 
N

Nobody

And, I imagine, in conditions which are at least halfway normal,
having the reactors in close proximity probably adds to the safety of
the operation. As long as at least one reactor is operating, it would
be producing far more power than is needed to keep the cooling pumps
in the other reactors functioning correctly.

The emergency diesel generators would be needed for this purpose only
if (1) all of the reactors are shut down at the same time

Standard procedure is to shut down the reactor in the event of a quake.
and (2) the
power grid is sufficiently damaged that power cannot be brought in
from other power plants.

Unfortunately, natural disasters often cause that.
I wonder whether, paradoxically, it might even have been safer in this
case to leave one or more of the reactors running at reduced power
rather than hitting the SCRAM button on all of them... darned hard to
make a decision about that "in the moment", though.

Hindsight is 20:20. I don't think anyone was expecting all of the backup
generators to fail.

No amount of redundancy helps against events which affect all instances
equally. Incorrect assumptions of independence have been at the root of
a great many incidents which had been considered "can't happen" (due
to the level of redundancy) until all of the redundant instances failed
simultaneously for the same reason.
 
N

Nobody

Don't they have mobile diesel generators, like in their military?

They brought some in after the on-site generators failed, but they "had
the wrong connectors". At least, that's the media's version, which seems a
bit unlikely; how long does it take to change a connector? It seems more
likely that they have specific constraints (900V @ 400Hz, 5-phase or
whatever) which mobile generators can't provide.
 
C

Charlie E.

They brought some in after the on-site generators failed, but they "had
the wrong connectors". At least, that's the media's version, which seems a
bit unlikely; how long does it take to change a connector? It seems more
likely that they have specific constraints (900V @ 400Hz, 5-phase or
whatever) which mobile generators can't provide.

Could be. Its not like it would have hurt in the design specs to have
called for STANDARD voltages and connectors... ;-)

Charlie
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

I'm worried about radiation leaking upwards and making the sun radioactive.
Then it would radiate everyone.

The Sun is not "up", you fucking idiot.
 
R

Rich Grise

John said:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:15:02 -0400, Ecnerwal


I grew up in New Orleans. The highest I'd ever been up through high
school, excepting the Hibernia Bank building and the river levee, was
Monkey Hill in the park, +12 feet.

In geography class, they taught us about rocks, sedimentary and
igneous and metamorphic. Nobody believed them: the world was made of
mud, and rocks come down the river in barges from rock factories.
They make them at the prison - they have the convicts glue grains of
sand together. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Jan Panteltje

They make them at the prison - they have the convicts glue grains of
sand together. ;-)

I grew up in the city of Amsterdam.
One day we went by train to granny, and passing through the country
I did notice those big animals with white and black spots.
Cows.
 
M

Martin Brown

I was also surprised that they could not bring in some portable diesel
generators, enough fuel to run them and patch them into the plants
switchgear at some level. It must have been a priority from early on.

Given that they had fire tenders involved in crucial pumping operations
running out of fuel there too there must be some additional logistical
complications that are not being reported. No single generator was up to
the job and no way to synchronise them perhaps?

I got the impression from something broadcast on the BBC that as well as
flooding the generators and some electronic control gear the tsunami
also washed away the external bulk kerosene storage tanks. Not having
them bunded or generators behind watertight doors was clearly a mistake.
Part of Japan is 50 Hz, the other is 60 Hz.

But that usually means that their kit is very catholic in what voltage
and frequency inputs it will tolerate and still work OK.

Doubtless it will become clear in due course what problems they
encountered and why a lashed up power supply was not possible.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
I grew up in the city of Amsterdam.
One day we went by train to granny, and passing through the country
I did notice those big animals with white and black spots.
Cows.

From the Amsterdam Rotterdam motorway, you can see a lot of those
animals and suddenly there is a small ship going between these
animals:). There are no clues that there might be any channels or
other waterways in that area, so it is quite surprising to see a boat
in the middle of the field. Hopefully the tsunamis stay away from
these places.
 
M

Martin Brown

It also seems to be an oxymoron.

It's difficult to manage a very small risk with very serious consequences.
If you start with adequate safety margins, you can screw up quite a lot
and you'll probably get away with it most of the time. Probably.

Though to be fair to the plant operators in this instance it was the
largest quake since the industrial era began and it scored an almost
direct hit on these reactors. Not too surprising the turbines shutdown
on vibration monitoring - shame there wasn't a small sacrificial turbine
to maintain critical circuits when under duress in the aftermath of a
SCRAM. Once they ran out of batteries they were stuck.

Modern designs are meant to have intrinsic safety systems based on
convection emergency cooling and not relying on pumps.
This results in pressure to tolerate corner-cutting.

I suspect that Japan is more susceptible to this issue than the west.

I don't know about that. Scientists and engineers status in Japan is
higher than in the West and penny pinching beancounters & MBAs lower.
Their emphasis on agreement and compromise may make for a orderly society,
but it doesn't necessarily make for sound nuclear safety policy. The
Confucianist notion that important people (e.g. CEOs) are owed deference
from the little people (which includes the bureaucrats who are supposed to
be regulating them) probably doesn't help.

The deference works both ways. The good CEOs know when they need expert
advice and rather disconcertingly come to your office (not too bad for a
Westerner but possibly quite disconcerting for a Japanese worker).

I would be far more worried about the naked maximise profit now and let
the future go hang attitude prevalent in US style energy companies of
which Enron was the prime exponent.
But those accidents aren't a danger to people who don't actually work in
those industries (i.e. most of the population). And people seem to think
that radiation from coal is just something the tree-huggers made up to try
to scare people away from coal.

The radiation from impurities in coal are real enough. Uranium is a lot
more common than most people imagine there is 2ppm in almost everything
and slightly more in most igneous rocks. Mineable uranium ore is rare.
I don't know about the height issue. But putting 4 reactors next to each
other seems to have been an issue. A hydrogen explosion at #2 damaged the
pumps used to cool #3, operation of #3 was temporarily abandoned due to
radiation from the spent fuel pool at #4.

OTOH, I suppose that one exclusion zone is better than four.

They are a bit too close together for comfort, with the benefit of
hindsight.

But I'd have thought that once a site is researched and has obtained
planning permission putting more than one in place makes best use of
infrastructure and expertise. In the UK getting planning permission for
a new nuclear site runs into tremendous NIMBY opposition. As a result
all new build will be on existing nuclear sites (if they go ahead).

And the high level waste repository will by built under an existing
remote site with entirely unsuitable geology because the correct site is
under land in the prosperous south where the rich and powerful live.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
I was also surprised that they could not bring in some portable diesel
generators, enough fuel to run them and patch them into the plants
switchgear at some level. It must have been a priority from early on.

Given that they had fire tenders involved in crucial pumping operations
running out of fuel there too there must be some additional logistical
complications that are not being reported. No single generator was up to
the job and no way to synchronise them perhaps?

I would expect logistics problems on a power plant high in the
mountains at the end of a single narrow road :).

However, these problematic power plants are at the coast (and hence
tsunami damage), so it should not be too difficult to receive supplies
by ships.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan said:
I grew up in the city of Amsterdam.
One day we went by train to granny, and passing through the country
I did notice those big animals with white and black spots.
Cows.

If they have white spots and black spots, what color is the part
between the spots?

Thanks,
Rich
 
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