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Jet streams could carry radioactivity from Japan to the US

P

PeterD

Within a few weeks after the Chernobyl fire, detectable radiation
increments were detected all the way around that Earth. Most of that
was trivial, and dissipated quickly. However, a Chernobyl-sized
control area impressed on Honshu would include about half the island
or more, depending on wind speed and direction.

Apparently people are missing that this reactor is a totally different
design, with a viable containment system, as compared to Chernobyl,
which had, for all intents and purposes, no containment system.

If this was an old Russian designed reactor, I'd panic too, but it is not.
 
A

amdx

Jet streams could carry radioactivity from Japan to the US.
In the second world war Japan used balloons carried by the jet stream
to send bombs to the US.
Some bombs actually made it.
It seems to me, that in the same way, if radioactive substances
get high enough in the atmosphere, those may be carried at high speed
towards the US.
Time to buy or build your radiation counter.
http://www.panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic/
http://www.panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
FWIW--
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/16/japan-prepares-to-send-to-workers-back-in-dai-ichi-plant-after-e/
"Elevated levels of radiation were detected well outside the 20-mile
(30-kilometer) emergency area around the plants. In Ibaraki
prefecture, just south of Fukushima, officials said radiation levels
were about 300 times normal levels by late morning. It would take
three years of constant exposure to these higher levels to raise a
person's risk of cancer."

If we weren't so good a measuring low levels of almost everything,
society would have a lot less to fear and we would be just as safe.
We used to worry about parts per million, now it's parts per billion, won't
be long and it will be parts per trillion. At that point all water will be
contaminated and not fit for human consumption.
And while I'm on the subject of, not fit for human consumption,
please be aware of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
Mikek
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

Apparently people are missing that this reactor is a totally different
design, with a viable containment system, as compared to Chernobyl,
which had, for all intents and purposes, no containment system.

If this was an old Russian designed reactor, I'd panic too, but it is not.

This deal is three orders of magnitude less than the mess that was
Chernobyl, minimum. Hell it could be even less than that.

We would see a quarter of a chest x-ray exposure.

That mess could still be gurgling. All they did essentially was cap it
off in concrete after killing a huge number of men getting some of it
doused and removed.
 
J

Jeroen Belleman

Rich said:
How about that abandoned salt mine at 2000 feet depth in New Mexico
where they've been dumping the stuff since the Manhattan Project?
http://www.miller-mccune.com/science-environment/the-salt-mine-solution-3797/#

It has always seemed to me that it's stupid to bury long-
term dangerous waste in a layer of stuff that is plastic,
soluble and corrosive. I think the real reason they want
to store waste in salt mines is that it is cheap to dig
holes in salt.

Jeroen Belleman
 
M

Martin Brown

Unfortunately, where fuel cycle radionucleides are concerned the average
radiation level doesn't really hack it. If it really is a smooth average
dose then fair enough but if there is particulate alpha emitting
material in the smoke then as hotspots in the lungs it can do a great
deal of harm. Sheep in parts of Wales are still not safe to eat because
of Chernobyl it turns out highland plants and moss sequester caesium and
it stays biologically available for a very long time.
If we weren't so good a measuring low levels of almost everything,
society would have a lot less to fear and we would be just as safe.
We used to worry about parts per million, now it's parts per billion, won't
be long and it will be parts per trillion. At that point all water will be
contaminated and not fit for human consumption.

We can already measure to sub ppq for most inorganic species (provided
that the solvent is pure enough) and important organic ones. How else do
you think they make modern semiconductors and the processing reagents? I
helped a group in Japan that first pushed the detection limits beyond
ppq (10^-15) in the 1990's and had to apply to IUPAC for a novel
designation for the next scale down 10^18. The standard pattern breaks
down because parts per quadrillion has already used ppq so the
quintillion was poorly named. No-one expected it to be a problem.

Today some measurements are routinely done sub to ppq detection limits.
You need the right kit and it isn't cheap but it is routine now. It was
bleeding edge in the 1990's. There are even lab services that will do it
for you with a periodic table of detection limits (for a price):

http://www.elementalanalysis.com/services/inductively-coupled-plasma-icp#high-resolution

They are not prepared to handle radionucleides. The kit will but you
need a much more expensive glove box version to handle open sources.

We were banned from demonstrating uranium and lead in tapwater to VIPs
after a customer (the local water company) complained about it.
And while I'm on the subject of, not fit for human consumption,
please be aware of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
Mikek

It is amusing to note that older adults are generally not fit for human
consumption due to accumulated doses of organochlorines DDT etc.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
W

Wond

Say, Does anyone know why the reactor stays hot after the control rods
have been pulled out. Is it the 'secondary' radiation from all the
other stuff in the reactor or maybe spontaneous fission of the Uranium?
Something else? Too many banana's?

George H.

Shouldn't that be "pushed in"? AIUI pulling the control rods allows
the neutrons to sustain the reaction? Or is my info too old?
 
R

Rich Webb

Shouldn't that be "pushed in"? AIUI pulling the control rods allows
the neutrons to sustain the reaction? Or is my info too old?

No, you're correct. Even the original Chicago Pile was constructed so
that removing neutron-absorbing control rods would add reactivity to the
core (fewer neutrons absorbed -> more fissions).

I do seem to recall some designs (or at least Gedankenexperiments) where
some control rods acted as neutron moderators rather than absorbers, so
that inserting those rods would add reactivity by increasing the thermal
neutron flux in their vicinity.
 
M

Martin Brown

It is the newly formed and hot daughter fragments of uranium fission
which are excessively neutron rich and have to sort themselves out by
radioactive decay. The first few decay steps are fairly energetic and
moderately fast with half lives mostly of hours and days. A rough rule
of thumb for fallout after the first hour is that for every 7x increase
in time the fallout level decays by a factor of 10. This crude rule
doesn't apply when the reactor is still leaking fresh hot material.
You are correct. In the earliest designs the control rods were arranged
so that they would passively gravity feed and there was a guy employed
to scram the reactor if anything ever went wrong.

He was apocrophally designated the Safety Control Rod Axe Man. Hence to
SCRAM a reactor for an emergency shutdown.
It's been a while since I took a nuclear course, but for Uranium you
have to slow the neutrons down so they can be absorbed. I thought
that was the control rods job. They 'moderate' the neutrons, so they
can be absorbed by the next Uranium atom they run into. But I very
well could have my terms mixed up.

Slowing the thermal neutrons down is the job of the moderator which in
the first generation were graphite cores and D2O has been used. Modern
designs can use light water.

Control rods contain powerful neutron absorbers like boron and take the
reactor gain down breaking the sustainability of the fission reaction.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
Fukushima had a spike of 400mSv/hr a couple of days ago.

Is this the same "event" shown on NHK English broadcast.

The cabinet minister reported 400 mSv/hr, but the specialists present
on the same press conference said in a polite way that the minister
had mixed millisieverts and microsieverts.

The specialist then listed measurements in the 0.4-6 mSv/hr range.
Thus, at least this "400 mSv/hr" reading is not very plausible.
 
Shouldn't that be "pushed in"? AIUI pulling the control rods allows
the neutrons to sustain the reaction? Or is my info too old?

I do not know about the GE PWR reactor designs used in Japan, but at
least the ASEA Atom PWRs have the control rod mechanism below the core
and in order to perform a SCRAM (shutdown) the control rods are
actually shout into the core from below with pneumatics.

This might cause some ambiguity in terminology.
 
I do not know about the GE PWR reactor designs used in Japan, but at
least the ASEA Atom PWRs have the control rod mechanism below the core

Correction: The plants that have problems in Japan are all Boiling
Water Reactors (BWR) built by GE or licensed by Toshiba and Hitachi.

The Asea Atom constructions are also BWRs.
 
M

Martin Brown

Reasonably managed nuclear power is safe. Coal mines kill more people,

Unfortunately, reasonable management is more a matter of good luck than
good judgement. The profit motive tends to want to cut corners which is
unacceptable in something as safety critical as a nuclear reactor.

The UK was extremely lucky that Cockcroft's follies *were* installed at
Calder Hall (later Windscale and now Sellafield). They rename it after
each major nuclear incident. Arguably it is due for another renaming
since although it didn't fail catastrophically the new THORPE
reprocessing plant is as dead in the water as it is possible to be.
and coal plants put more radiation into the air, than nukes do. Oil
rig workers die every year. The TMI meltdown was stupid and expensive,
but didn't kill anyone.

Uranium mining is a hell of a job though and it kills people. But they
are only peons in mostly poor countries and out of sight out of mind.
Energy is dangerous.

Indeed. You would never get a licence to store bulk gasoline in cities
or sell it directly to the public if we didn't already do it.
Putting a nuke at sea level, in a tsunami zone, is sort of crazy. A
50-foot high plateau wouldn't have been a lot of dirt to move, and
would have saved the plants.

No. It would have compromised them during the earthquake. You should
know this living in an earthquake zone like SF. Things attached to
bedrock survive and things on soil keel over when the stuff fluidises in
a quake. Reclaimed land by the sea invariably fails catastrophically.

I do think they were asking for trouble by not having the emergency
generators bunded against flooding though. There are a lot of coastal
nuclear plants globally at less than 10m above mean sea level -
convenient for cooling. It could be a real embarrassment as AGW makes
sea levels rise and storm surges more likely to overtop the facilities.
Note we

Used fuel rods should be reprocessed into new fuel rods. That would
burn more isotopes and make more energy, and greatly reduce the volume
of stuff that has to be sequestered for 100K years or whatever.

Reprocessing spent fuel is pretty tricky. You tend to end up with huge
amounts of moderate level waste and fuel that is never quite as good.
The US won't do this for illogical reasons.

Possibly although they have done it in the past for military reasons.
There are cold war waste ponds at ORNL that are still self boiling today.

Like Jan it has inspired me to build a Geiger counter. I have a cold war
dosimeter somewhere but that is only really any good for wartime
emergency dose measurements which are a bit on the high side.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
R

Rich Grise

George said:
It's been a while since I took a nuclear course, but for Uranium you
have to slow the neutrons down so they can be absorbed. I thought
that was the control rods job. They 'moderate' the neutrons, so they
can be absorbed by the next Uranium atom they run into. But I very
well could have my terms mixed up.
The control rods slow down the neutrons; to make the reactor work,
they're pulled out - to slow it down, they're dropped (or pushed)
in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod

Cheers!
Rich
 
G

Grant

It's been a while since I took a nuclear course, but for Uranium you
have to slow the neutrons down so they can be absorbed. I thought
that was the control rods job. They 'moderate' the neutrons, so they
can be absorbed by the next Uranium atom they run into. But I very
well could have my terms mixed up.

Or, you're the type to confuse up/down, in/out, hi/lo and so on?

They push all the control rods in and the reactor output goes from 100% to 7%/.

It's that 7% of full output which is causing the trouble, from my recent
reading. The other source of trouble is the storage pond for used rods,
adjacent to the reactor. The water level goes down exposes fuel rods to
air, they heat up and crack the water to produce hydrogen, which explodes,
blowing the buildings roof off. But not hurting the reactor containment.

Thus the radioactive materials coming out of the damaged plants is from
the spent rods, not the reactor core.

Grant.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

The TMI meltdown was stupid and expensive, but didn't kill anyone.

Perhaps. But that isn't much of a decent threshold of
acceptance, either. And the story provides an interesting
series of failures, which gives one pause:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html

"The accident began about 4:00 a.m. on March 28, 1979,
when the plant experienced a failure in the secondary,
non-nuclear section of the plant. The main feedwater
pumps stopped running, caused by either a mechanical
or electrical failure, which prevented the steam
generators from removing heat. First the turbine,
then the reactor automatically shut down. Immediately,
the pressure in the primary system (the nuclear portion
of the plant) began to increase. In order to prevent
that pressure from becoming excessive, the pilot-
operated relief valve (a valve located at the top of
the pressurizer) opened. The valve should have closed
when the pressure decreased by a certain amount, but it
did not. Signals available to the operator failed to
show that the valve was still open. As a result,
cooling water poured out of the stuck-open valve and
caused the core of the reactor to overheat.

"As coolant flowed from the core through the pressurizer,
the instruments available to reactor operators provided
confusing information. There was no instrument that
showed the level of coolant in the core. Instead, the
operators judged the level of water in the core by the
level in the pressurizer, and since it was high, they
assumed that the core was properly covered with coolant.
In addition, there was no clear signal that the pilot-
operated relief valve was open. As a result, as alarms
rang and warning lights flashed, the operators did not
realize that the plant was experiencing a loss-of-coolant
accident. They took a series of actions that made
conditions worse by simply reducing the flow of coolant
through the core."

So,
* man feedwater pump __fails__
* turbine and reactor shuts down and pressures increase
* pilot valve opens but __fails__ to close
* signals to the operator __failed__ to show this fact
* so cooling water vented out of the open pilot valve
* no instrument existed to show the level of coolant!!

Worth noting. Design failures (no instrumentation for more
directly measuring coolant level, for example) combined with
ad-hoc failures of a pump system, pilot valve, and pilot
valve condition readout, at the very least. Makes you wonder
what other design lacks, instrumentation failures, or
component or system failures were present and unaccounted for
because they were not tested by the event.

By the way, I support nuclear power in the US and the people
who, I believe, do work very hard and at-risk to provide a
resource we use with far too little appreciation. But that
doesn't mean I do so with eyes closed.

There is a cozy relationship between the NRC and plant
operators (MOA between INPO and NRC, for example) an NRC
licensing process for early site approval and certification
of plant designs by rule (avoiding public hearings for each
plant) that provides for simultaneous issuances of both a
construction permit and an operating license as a one-stop
licensing called "combined licenses," the Price-Anderson Act
capping to ridiculously low numbers their liability and
completely hides the costing out of risk (and would be better
handled via the usual private business insurance mechanisms),
to name a few things. I'd also like a mechanism for
adversarial, informed disputes to take place. There is none,
right now.

We can do better, and should.

Jon
 
T

TheQuickBrownFox

in a layer of stuff that is plastic,
soluble and corrosive.

Salt domes do not move. Salt domes do not 'flow'. They are about as
static and stable as it gets, and that even through earthquakes.

It isn't a layer, it is a giant monolith. Think Mt. Everest upside
down.

Get a clue after that.
 
N

Nobody

It's been a while since I took a nuclear course, but for Uranium you
have to slow the neutrons down so they can be absorbed. I thought
that was the control rods job. They 'moderate' the neutrons, so they
can be absorbed by the next Uranium atom they run into. But I very
well could have my terms mixed up.

You have.

Control rods (boron) absorb neutrons, which decreases the energy output.

The moderator (typically water or graphite; water at Fukushima, graphite
at Chernobyl) slows down neutrons, which increases the probability of
collision and thus increases the energy output.

An advantage of a water-cooled, water-moderated reactor is that the
coolant is the moderator, so a loss of coolant naturally decreases the
energy output. Unfortunately, the decrease in energy output takes some
time to take effect, while the decrease in cooling doesn't.
 
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