How not to wire up an electric grill

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

My guess is they're not plugged in at the wall, and it's a staged
photo.

That was my first response, except I didn't use the term "wall".

 

[Do I really need to say?]

Nah, it's in Germany. Haven't them yer-a-peein's been subject to
imperial rule for centuries? I'm guessing they have mandatory GFCIs,
such that their rulers can speechify about "giving" people "safety"
and "security".

In Heaven, the British run the police, the French do the cooking, the
Germans do the repairs, the Swiss run the trains, and the Italians are
the lovers.

In Hell, the Germans run the police, the British do the cooking, the
French do the repairs, the Italians run the trains, and the Swiss are the
lovers.

And in either, you're still the idiot!

 

[Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:46:05 GMT, "Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie"

And in either, you're still the idiot!

Well, it takes one to know one! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[John O'Flaherty]

Yes, but it also requires that the body be IN the PATH, not some lame
imaginary field lines.

Sorry, but you are thinking about it incorrectly. There isn't any
unique "the path". When there is an electric dipole in a uniformly
conductive medium (such as water), an electric field is established
that can be represented by directional lines perpendicular to
equipotential lines. Current will flow along those directional lines
in proportion to the electric field gradient there. Insertion of
something more conductive at any point will distort the field so as to
concentrate current through the more conductive area.

 

[John O'Flaherty]

This is called a PATH. Of course even a dope like you
??

knows that
current flows THROUGH paths, from a source to its return (or attractor),
so of course there would be some of that current flowing through a body
within the PATH.

Are you that terrified that someone disagrees with you?

 

[John O'Flaherty]

A couple mA actually.

That's true for someone who has a normal heart, and who is not
electrically susceptible due to a catheter or some other intrusion
that would concentrate the current. In any case, a couple of mA is
quite easily reached when there is very little resistance, such as the
100 ohms or so when a body is immersed in water.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Sorry, but you are thinking about it incorrectly. There isn't any
unique "the path". When there is an electric dipole in a uniformly
conductive medium (such as water), an electric field is established
that can be represented by directional lines perpendicular to
equipotential lines. Current will flow along those directional lines
in proportion to the electric field gradient there. Insertion of
something more conductive at any point will distort the field so as to
concentrate current through the more conductive area.

Take a copper cube with two attachments on opposite faces that are less
than one tenth the size of the cube. Place a silver rod that is one
tenth the cube face width in diameter over in the corner of the cube,
between the two nodes. Pass current... I'd say that the silver rod
never sees any of it.

The two guys in the pool represent even less percentage than the rod,
AND the two nodes are NOT across the face of the pool, and the bottom of
the pool, they are across two nodes of a fucking power strip. 90% of
that pool's body of water sees ZERO current.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

That's true for someone who has a normal heart, and who is not
electrically susceptible due to a catheter or some other intrusion
that would concentrate the current. In any case, a couple of mA is
quite easily reached when there is very little resistance, such as the
100 ohms or so when a body is immersed in water.

Yes, wet body means lower resistance, HOWEVER, there has to be a path.
Two contact points where the heart lies BETWEEN them.

There was (is) a lady reporter in LA CA that got one of her arms burnt
nearly completely off by a high current... a current that never passed
through her heart because the path between entry and exit points for the
HV did not have her heart in line with them.

 

[John O'Flaherty]

Take a copper cube with two attachments on opposite faces that are less
than one tenth the size of the cube. Place a silver rod that is one
tenth the cube face width in diameter over in the corner of the cube,
between the two nodes. Pass current... I'd say that the silver rod
never sees any of it.

I don't agree. You aren't going to see all the current flowing in an
infinitely narrow line between the corners- it's going to spread, and
in an even sort of way. For example, take a line between the corners
of 1 cm^2 cross-section. That will have a certain resistance. In the
next layer outward, whatever shell has an equal resistance to that
core will carry about the same current.

In any case, there's much more contrast between the conductivity of a
body full of ions and a pool full of water than between copper and
silver, even allowing for hard water and chlorine.

The two guys in the pool represent even less percentage than the rod,
AND the two nodes are NOT across the face of the pool, and the bottom of
the pool, they are across two nodes of a fucking power strip. 90% of
that pool's body of water sees ZERO current.

You don't know that both sides of the line make contact with the pool
at the same time, or with the same surface area. You don't know that
the guy smiling in the background doesn't have his wet hand lying on
the cement patio.

Even if both contacts have equal area and are centered in the pool,
there will be nowhere in the pool that actually has zero current. If
you believe in electric fields and that they have direction, then
field lines aren't imaginary.

My point is not that this situation will result in certain death, but
that it is dangerous.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Even if both contacts have equal area and are centered in the pool,
there will be nowhere in the pool that actually has zero current.

Bullshit.

 

[z]

  Theirs is not a center tapped setup at all.  Both sides are HOT if Iam
not mistaken.  Still, there is no path from one node to its return node
that passes THROUGH the folks in the pool.

that's what I'm thinking. it's like before gfis, when they used to
stick an isolation transformer in the bathroom outlets for shavers, so
you would be floating with respect to any current leaks, despite the
fact that you were solidly grounded to the pipes.

 

[[email protected]]

My guess is they're not plugged in at the wall, and it's a staged
photo.

Mark

Our industrial hygienist (safety specialist) at work concurs - he
noticed there's nothing cooking, nothing on the grill, no smoke...

Michael

 

[Joerg]

"Raises" the question. "Beg the question" is a special term - see def.
9:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/beg the question

Ok, ok, I lived in too many places. That confuses the tongue a bit.
After a while you are fluent in many languages but none of them 100%
"poifect".

But, quote: "beg the question, to assume the truth of the very point
raised in a question."

I believe that definition hits it on the nail. My impression is that VLC
doesn't really do what FlashPlayer is supposed to do. For example this
morning someone in Europe had spooled that movie to MP4. VLC took it,
showed the first (still) image. Then after finishing the download, poof,
all gone. Downloaded it again to file, this time it worked.

 

[[email protected]]

Ok, ok, I lived in too many places. That confuses the tongue a bit.
After a while you are fluent in many languages but none of them 100%
"poifect".

But, quote: "beg the question, to assume the truth of the very point
raised in a question."

I believe that definition hits it on the nail. My impression is that VLC
doesn't really do what FlashPlayer is supposed to do. For example this
morning someone in Europe had spooled that movie to MP4. VLC took it,
showed the first (still) image. Then after finishing the download, poof,
all gone. Downloaded it again to file, this time it worked.

Get mplayer. Works great even on downloaded Flash movies ripped from
Firefox's cache.

Michael

 

[Frithiof Andreas Jensen]

"z" <[email protected]> skrev i en meddelelse

come to think of it... does european 220 volt have an earthed neutral,
or is it like US 220, but without the earthed neutral that gives us
110?

It's earthed alrite - all the way back at the substation maybe a couple of
km away. So it's not a good idea to touch the neutral.

 

[Joerg]

Get mplayer. Works great even on downloaded Flash movies ripped from
Firefox's cache.

Thanks. Lots of download sites. Do you know which one would be safe?

 

[Richard Rasker]

come to think of it... does european 220 volt have an earthed neutral,
or is it like US 220, but without the earthed neutral that gives us
110?

Western Europe nowadays has 230 volts, with one neutral conductor, connected
to earth, and one live conductor, carrying 230 volts AC.

The pool situation could be extremely dangerous, even if the plastic
insulation is perfect -- the whole setup acts as a giant capacitor, with
roughly the following capacity:

mu0 x mur x A 8.9E-12 x 3.8 x 15
C = ------------- = ------------------ ~= 0.5uF
d 1E-3
(with A in square meters, d in meters, and mur the relative mu of PVC)

This capacitor creates the necessary path to ground. At 50Hz and 115 volts
(the resulting AC voltage with a 230 wire and a neutral wire under water),
this capacitor would allow for an AC current of well over 10mA, a lot of
which will flow through the body if positioned between the conductors and
the pool floor. Although this is not considered immediately lethal, it will
cause spasms and loss of muscle control, most probably resulting in
drowning of the victim. Anyone getting within a meter or so from the wires
would start feeling anything from slight tingling to severe discomfort.
I'd recommend only foolish people do as shown in the picture, so as to
improve the general level of intelligence of the human population.

Richard Rasker

 

[Rich Grise]

Thanks. Lots of download sites. Do you know which one would be safe?

With Linux, they all are. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Thanks. Lots of download sites. Do you know which one would be safe?

Mplayer. Go to the source page or get the subversion.

What makes you think any would be unsafe, and why do you not scan
downloaded executables yourself, regardless of the source?

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Western Europe nowadays has 230 volts, with one neutral conductor, connected
to earth, and one live conductor, carrying 230 volts AC.

The pool situation could be extremely dangerous, even if the plastic
insulation is perfect -- the whole setup acts as a giant capacitor, with
roughly the following capacity:

mu0 x mur x A 8.9E-12 x 3.8 x 15
C = ------------- = ------------------ ~= 0.5uF
d 1E-3
(with A in square meters, d in meters, and mur the relative mu of PVC)

This capacitor creates the necessary path to ground. At 50Hz and 115 volts
(the resulting AC voltage with a 230 wire and a neutral wire under water),
this capacitor would allow for an AC current of well over 10mA, a lot of
which will flow through the body if positioned between the conductors and
the pool floor. Although this is not considered immediately lethal, it will
cause spasms and loss of muscle control, most probably resulting in
drowning of the victim. Anyone getting within a meter or so from the wires
would start feeling anything from slight tingling to severe discomfort.
I'd recommend only foolish people do as shown in the picture, so as to
improve the general level of intelligence of the human population.

Richard Rasker

Hahahaha! First it was a field current, now it's a capacitor!

Jeez. Who is going to speculate next?