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High output current audio driver

R

rickman

"rickman"




** Your absurd PCB space and dissipation requirements are the only issue.

SO YOU FUCKED UP.

Make the PCB bigger.

Dickhead.

........ Phil

Not having a good day Phil? Sorry about that. I hope things get
better for you.
 
R

rickman

In <86a74c7a-4fb8-460d-af2c-3092d8368...@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
rickman wrote (edited for space):





How about LM386 and add in series with your board's output the lowest
value and wattage resistor that according to the datasheet with your
supply voltage will cause no problem if that resistor from LM386 output
(after any series capacitor) goes to ground?


As I said a bit earlier, I would be wary of positive feedback. If the
ultimate load has impedance varying with frequency and is on a line of
length no more than a few percent of a wavelength of the highest frequency
that matters (I would guess about 15-20 KHz), positive feedback will at
least largely reinforce the gain variations that correspond to impedance
variations with frequency. Your ultimate load may be a loudspeaker
preceded by a matching transformer.

If you use positive feedback or even substantial output impedance, be
prepared to explain how your device meets the spec but fails to satisfy
the customer. You will be better off if the customer is satisfied even if
the device meets the spec.
Prime example: Many, probably most loudspeakers (especially in
unported enclosures) that have frequency response peaks in low or
lower-middle audio frequencies have corresponding impedance peaks.
Significant output impedance and positive feedback will worsen these.
There are other loudspeakers with flatter frequency response, especially
at lower and lower-middle frequencies, but with impedance varying greatly
with frequency over some frequencies where ratio of output SPL to input
voltage is more constant. Having significant output impedance will make
frequency response peaks out of load impedance (as a function of
frequency) peaks. Keep in mind that loudspeaker frequency response (ratio
of listener SPL to input voltage as a function of frequency) is generally
determined with zero or approaching-zero source impedance.

Thanks for the insight. Actually, I am designing more than one device
with the same circuit board, but different populations are allowed.
The requirement for driving the 50 ohm line unfortunately is in the
same configuration that requires 10 Vpp output. It does not, however,
require wide bandwidth, transmitting only a 1 kHz AM signal modulated
at 100 baud. The other two modes can change values of filter
components, gain settings and the termination components. So if the
load has a complex impedance the positive feedback can be removed and
the output can be driven with the initial 50 ohm or higher
resistance.

Is that any more clear? I know this sounds like an unusual
application, but mine is to do or die... however I will be asking
questions about this later this week. Right now I want to be able to
say I have covered the bases and considered every technical
approach.
 
R

rickman

In <a9c5db61-3675-45fd-b3e5-7eff4a209...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,



I thought you said before 10 Vpp. Are you counting on a
same-as-load-impedance series resistor?

Yes, for the 50 ohm load configuration, that is exactly what I am
considering.

If so and if that is tolerable, I consider it no worse to have a scheme
with a combination of current and voltage feedbacks (maybe negative
voltage feedback and positive current feedback) to generate an output
impedance same as that of such a series resistor - that can reduce your
amplifier voltage requirement by half.

Yes, that is what I was thinking about. I have read a couple of
articles about positive feedback to multiply the output resistor.
This reduces the power spent in the output resistor, although not in
the total circuit unless you can lower the supply voltages. But the
total power is not my immediate concern. The dissipation in the
resistors is since they get very large with power. The amps can be
effectively heatsinked to help remove the heat, so they are better
equipped to dissipate the Watt or so required.

If you have a severe supply voltage requirement, consider having two
amplifiers, with their inputs driven inverted from each other.
Maybe or maybe-not so-good if this device has to feed an "unbalanced
line", such as 50 or 52 ohm coaxial cable whose shield is a ground that
your supply rails must have low AC voltage/potential with-respect-to.

Yes, I have been thinking about this and unless you are referring to a
differential arrangement, I don't understand what you mean about the
two amplifiers. I don't think I can use a differential output for the
10 Vpp, 50 ohm configuration.
 
A

Arie de Muynck

"rickman" ...
Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, I don't get to pick the specs
I am designing to. I am building a board, not the system. I may go
back to my customer to ask for a change to the specs, but this is what
I have. When they spec'd the design I guess they have to account for
any number of situations. I know that there are three different
applications for this design which will only differ in the line
impedance and the frequency range. Some are voice, some are "high
resolution" and the main use is for IRIG-B. My spec is for 50 ohm
line with 50 ohm resistive termination. It's the resistive
termination I find difficult to deal with.

High resolution? I hope it is not also high accuracy.
A long cable with a 50 Ohm load will have a gain certainly less than one.
And temperature dependent. How are you (is your) customer dealing with that?
You are not doing remote sensing, are you?

Arie.
 
P

Phil Allison

"rickman the prickman "


** **** OFF !!!!!!!!!

YOU VILE, ASD FUCKED PIG.






........ Phil
 
E

Eeyore

rickman said:
Thanks for the reply. I am not concerned about the power in the board
as a whole. I am concerned about the board space of having to use
large power resistors to handle unspec'ed error conditions such as a
shorted output. That is why I am asking about alternate circuits.

You should be concerned about local temperatures though. It may be a concern.

Graham
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Eeyore a écrit :
So how are you going to deal with the power dissipation issues into 50 ohms ?

Synthesizing as the driver output impedance.
That's what's done with ADSL line drivers and helps dissipation a lot
because of the lower required supply voltage.
 
E

Eeyore

Fred said:
Eeyore a écrit :

Synthesizing as the driver output impedance.
That's what's done with ADSL line drivers and helps dissipation a lot
because of the lower required supply voltage.

What's this synthesising you talk of ?

AIUI, the OP intended to *voltage drive* the cable, not 'match' it. Note his
concerns about shorting the output. Not that 'matching' audio to 50 ohms makes any
sense in the first place.

Graham
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Eeyore a écrit :
What's this synthesising you talk of ?

AIUI, the OP intended to *voltage drive* the cable, not 'match' it. Note his
concerns about shorting the output. Not that 'matching' audio to 50 ohms makes any
sense in the first place.

Sorry, I thought so and I've think I've read this was a requirement.

Of course the way to go is to voltage drive the line but what's the
resistor dissipation he's worrying about then?
The fact that he's somewhere else speaking of positive feedback to
increase the apparent series output resistance (hence reducing the real
series resistor dissipation) does seem to speak in my favor don't you think?
 
E

Eeyore

Fred said:
Eeyore a écrit :

Sorry, I thought so and I've think I've read this was a requirement.

Of course the way to go is to voltage drive the line but what's the
resistor dissipation he's worrying about then?

It seems he was latterly thinking of adding a series R in the output to stop a true
short circuit. I guess he's not aware that op-amps already have current limiting ?

The fact that he's somewhere else speaking of positive feedback to
increase the apparent series output resistance (hence reducing the real
series resistor dissipation) does seem to speak in my favor don't you think?

Since when did any feedback reduce *real dissipation* ? Any effect would be 'virtual'.


Graham
 
J

John Devereux

Phil Allison said:
"rickman"



** Your absurd PCB space and dissipation requirements are the only issue.

SO YOU FUCKED UP.

Make the PCB bigger.

Dickhead.

Is there anything suitable in Class D?
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Eeyore a écrit :
It seems he was latterly thinking of adding a series R in the output to stop a true
short circuit. I guess he's not aware that op-amps already have current limiting ?



Since when did any feedback reduce *real dissipation* ? Any effect would be 'virtual'.

For a given output capability it allows using lower resistance so lower
dissipation in that resistance.
Also lower voltage drop in that lower resistance means less supply
voltage needed, hence lower output stage dissipation for the same
driving capability.

Can't be more basic.
 
R

rickman

What's this synthesising you talk of ?

AIUI, the OP intended to *voltage drive* the cable, not 'match' it. Note his
concerns about shorting the output. Not that 'matching' audio to 50 ohms makes any
sense in the first place.

I know that I often don't write clearly, but I thought I made this
clean in my OP. I mentioned "series matching resistors of 50 ohms"
which also help prevent damage with an output short.

Obviously I didn't explain my problem very well as so many people
don't seem to understand what my concern is. If the physics of
dissipating a watt on a small PCB cause a large temperature rise my
customer will have to deal with providing adequate cooling. But I am
responsible for adding the circuit and making it drive the cable
correctly.

The opamps I have found that will drive this line (100 mA) have a very
high output short current, typically much higher than this level. The
largest output resistor I can use is 50 ohms when driving a 50 ohm
load to 10 Vpp with these supply levels. This limits the output
current to 200 mA. But the power into this resistor with shorted
output is a full watt. The power in the driver in the two cases does
not differ much, 0.6 Watts into 50 ohms and 0.7 watts with shorted
output (and 50 ohm series resistor, of course). The series resistor
has to be *very* large to handle a full watt in the shorted output
case. I found a 2512 part rated at 1.5 watts, but it is hard to get.
I picked an 0805 part which is 0.25 Watts and I can use four of them
and still be smaller than a 2512. But this is HUGE on this small
board. I have four outputs and I was incorrectly thinking that I
needed four on each input. They, along with the other passives on the
board, uses up so much space on the back side (as well as around the
chips on the front side) that there is no room left for the vias
required.

I am well aware of the physics of heat generation and removal. The
current solution is not workable. One alternative circuit which would
meet my requirements (perhaps) is to use positive feedback to sense
the current in the output series resistor to, in effect, multiply the
series resistor value. This reduces the power in the resistor while
raising the power in the amp unless the supply voltage is reduced.
Using a factor of 5, the power in the now 10 ohm output resistor is
only 50 mW. Even shorted, the power is only 200 mW, so now a single
0805 part will do the job.

I could use a switcher to supply a lower voltage and reduce the opamp
power level, but I am not eager to do that, even if I could make it
fit.

So I am looking for a part better matched to the application. I think
I mention an audio part that was a perfect fit in every regard except
for the output current limitation of around 60 mA. But this is not
spec'ed at +-12 V supplies, so I will be simulating this morning to
see what it does with this power level.

Thanks for all the comments. Explaining it has really made me think
about it clearly.
 
R

rickman

"rickman the prickman "

** **** OFF !!!!!!!!!

YOU VILE, ASD FUCKED PIG.

....... Phil


I see that you not only are not capable of civil conversation, you
repeatedly can't spell, or is ASD an abbreviation of some sort?

I bet I can guess what the response is...
 
R

rickman

Is there anything suitable in Class D?

That is a very good question. Of the parts I have looked at, the
answer is no... mainly because they don't operate at the required
voltages, or they use too many components.

Thanks for the suggestion though.
 
R

rickman

You should be concerned about local temperatures though. It may be a concern.

Yes, I understand that. I am using the best heat sinking I can in a
limited design such as this. The parts have a thermal pad and I am
using vias to connect to one of three power planes underneath (four
counting the copper pad on the opposite side). If push comes to
shove, I can layout the board to put the active parts on the top and
use actual heat sinks as will fit in the height provided. But it will
really be up to the customer to provide adequate cooling air.
Besides, the heat generated on board in normal operation is not so bad
at about 0.6 watts total in normal operation (per channel). I think
that is workable and higher heat with a shorted output should be
survivable; I calculate a max junction temp rise of 20C over ambient
which is entirely acceptable. Of course, that depends on the heat
getting off of the board at some point which is the customer's design
problem.
 
R

RST Engineering \(jw\)

--


The opamps I have found that will drive this line (100 mA) have a very
high output short current, typically much higher than this level. The
largest output resistor I can use is 50 ohms when driving a 50 ohm
load to 10 Vpp with these supply levels. This limits the output
current to 200 mA.


What is wrong with capacitively coupling the output so that you don't have
to worry about dc dissipation?

Jim
 
J

John Devereux

rickman said:
That is a very good question. Of the parts I have looked at, the
answer is no... mainly because they don't operate at the required
voltages, or they use too many components. OK...

Thanks for the suggestion though.

I have not thought this through... but how about a LM317 or similar
configured as a 100mA constant current source, supplying an
unprotected rail-to-rail output opamp. E.g. AD8531. Opamp is single
supply, feed the LM317 from 12V. If there is a short circuit, the
current limits and the opamp supply is reduced. The LM317 can heat up
and eventually will go into thermal shutdown depending on heat
sinking.

The point is to do the current limit externally, which means you don't
have use a higher supply voltage than needed to drive the load -
although perhaps there is a better way to do it.
 
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