Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

[[email protected]]

No, you have to subscribe, but if you want to send me a personal e-mail
and give me your addy, I can send one to you once they come out. We
are a ways from that at this point. If you are an installing dealer,
you can subscribe to the mag for free by going to the web site at
http://www.securitysales.com. It's a free subscription, but it
wouldn't be processed in time to get June I'd say.

Al

 

[[email protected]]

I'll take that back, they will have an abridged version of the story on
line at that URL. You might be able to get the essance of what it's
all about by reading it on line.

Al

 

[Frank Olson]

I would not go so far as to say that it's a go in every case. You will
find AHJ's who will say no.

Who's going to be the wiser?? In most new homes, the alarm system is
usually completed after the electrical inspection is and the place is
"cleared for occupancy". A homeowner signs a contract with a dealer that's
"sold him" on the "cheap fix" and figures he's getting one whale of a good
deal from a "professional" that he assumes is pretty "code savvy" to be in
the business in the first place. There are some alarmco's that will install
a security system without pulling the requisite permits. These are the guys
we all have to deal with on rare occasions.

You will find many who will say yes. For
homeowners who misunderstand what's been said, believe me, it will be
the AHJ who sets them straight in areas where it is not endorsed.

Most homeowners wouldn't even know to ask. They'd trust the guy that
offered them the "great deal". Most don't even call the BBB to find out the
standing of the company. I'm amazed at the amount of money people will fork
over as a deposit to some stranger that hasn't even presented proper
credentials (alarm sales license, etc.). I've seen contracts where the
direct sales act provisions haven't even been included and people are
clueless as to what to do if they have second thoughts and want to cancel.

However, I did not run across any who said no to me, but I did not do a
real survey covering one end of the country to the other. There are
many issues concerning this topic that must be considered, and that is
why I did not flat out say that Robert is wrong. This is certainly a
gray area where the AHJ will have to make a call, or the installer
based on his own judgement.

The problem is the AHJ is rarely involved and the unscrupulous dealer who's
read your article will jump at the chance at pulling another "trick" out of
his sales bag.

I would suggest waiting until you have a chance to read my Fire Side
Chat column in June to pass judgement either way. Obviously I cannot
reproduce it here, but if you check out Chapter 11, 2002, it does cover
some of this issue.

IMO, you should have considered more carefully whom it is you're
representing. Many security professionals consider your magazine a
worthwhile read. We all make mistakes, but in your case the effects are
more far reaching than even you probably realize.

 

[Group Moderator]

More typical trash talking from the vice chair of the Florida ECLB. Nice,
professionalism there, Mugford.

Hmmm... I think he posts here as Norman Mugford - ONLY

 

[Group Moderator]

Before commenting in a public forum, I suggest you try to be a bit more
professional. When a member of the ECLB behaves as you do in public you
debase the industry, not to mention the Florida ECLB.


Like Bob Campbell, I've no inclination to spend the time looking it up.

Mike Said:
The only thing stated in that answer that is true and correct is **LIKE BOB
CAMPBELL** you must have been twins in a past life. If you don't want to
spend the time to look it up, then you should not spend the time to say that
it is neither correct or incorrect. But we all understand the Bassology of
it. You think that you know everything BUT when challenged to proof it you
forgot where you plagiarized it from.

Http://www.AlarmSuperStore.com
"Your One Stop Alarm Shop"

 

[Group Moderator]

No, Mugford. I said you shouldn't do that because it's dumb to use the
wrong detector for the job.

Mike Said:
Ever hear of air conditioned attics?

http://www.AlarmSuperStore.com
"Your One Stop Alarm Shop"

 

[Norm Mugford]

Mr Colombo

It would only be fair to make you aware of who the person
is that is challenging your informative writings.

Mr. Robert L. Bass is the apparent owner of BassHomeAlarms in Sarasota, Fl.
A "DIY" internet only sales outlet. He does not install or service
equipment.
He is not a licensed Fire Alarm or Burglar Alarm Contractor.

I could go on about his misgivings, but, I will hold my comments.

Norm Mugford
Vice-Chairman
Florida Electrical Contractors Licensing Board
Department of Business & Professional Regulation
Florida Fire Alarm Contractor License EF 0001097

Your comments are well taken. After I resigned from the other magazine
in the fall of 2000, I went back to the field. I ended up forming a new
low-voltage company for a large electrical contractor in Canton, Ohio,
a union shop with 125 commercial and residential electricians and
teledata technicians. I did small to large projects, and as you can
well imagine, our electrical side drug in a lot of very big projects
for me to engineer for architects we partnered with, as well as bid
along side other project managers. Right now they are busy doing the
largest hopsital job in the state of Ohio.

All of this is to say that where we are located, the county building
department requires 120VAC smoke alarms in all new homes without
exception. You can add system smoke detectors if you wish, as a
homeowner, but you will install the 120 VAC smoke alarms first and they
must comply with Chapter 11, 72. There is no choice. Because we did the
structural cabling system as well as home automation, intercom, simple
security, along with home video surveillance in many cases, we already
were into the client for a good bit of money. Our residential division
did the smoke alarms and CO detection systems but it was my job to tie
them into the home automation or security panel. It was my job to
assist the client in any way I could to 1) provide life safety
protection and 2) to help protect his property.

Yes, I could have taken the hardnose point of view and said no, you
will have to install smoke detectors along side what you already have,
but that did not seem right to me. Of course I would always mention it.
Some did indeed elect to do it. Most did not. Again, these folks did
not have a choice in the matter and, even though 72 will allow me to
install one or two system smoke detectors anywhere I wish, simply
because the intent of Chapter 11 was met by the smoke alarms, it did
not seem ethical.

Believe me, if the county building dept. did not require 120VAC smoke
alarms, I would have insisted on the real deal, which is system-type
smoke detectors. The issue of the relay is an add-on, so long as 1)
the smoke alarms fulfill the intent and conditions of code, and 2) as
long as the relay cannot in any way interfere with the proper operation
of the smoke alarms, which is all part of code.

Here is what one AHJ said about this:

"I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Even if the
burglar alarm panel failed to report, the [smoke alarm] system is
designed only as a local alarm in the house. The [smoke alarm] system
will still do that, so the intent of the code has been met."

I hope I've explained myself well enough as to why I came up with this
and have tried to provide this help to our readers. The bottom line
is, smoke alarms equal life safety whereas our unlisted relay and
monitoring equals property protection.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Michael Sabodish, Sr., 894 Highway 34, Matawan, NJ 07747, 732-494-0288
wrote:

Hmmm... I think he posts here as Norman Mugford - ONLY

Everyone here knows who he is and he often mentions his position on the
ECLB.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Michael Sabodish, Sr., 894 Highway 34, Matawan, NJ 07747, 732-494-0288
wrote:

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Michael Sabodish, Sr., 894 Highway 34, Matawan, NJ 07747, 732-494-0288
wrote:

Ever hear of air conditioned attics?

Yes, but that was not the subject at hand.

 

[[email protected]]

Frank, you and I know that in retrofit situations, the AHJ hardly ever
gets a phone call. So, you will always find tradesmen who will install
stuff to suit themselves all the while ignoring code. What I published
is not new and the issue of dealing in two venues, one code compliant
and the other not, is not new as well.

When the AHJ sees nothing wrong with it, it's a go. When the AHJ says
no, it's no. The world of code has two distinctly different venues as
well. One is what's in the book and the other one is what's in the
field. Some of us go entirely by the book for everything we do, some
of us don't even own a code book and know nothing about what's in one,
and the other of us try to go by the book when it's practical while
doing what seems right for the client. I see no absolute black and
white associated with this issue.

I respect your position, for where you now stand I stood at one time.
Believe me, I'm a dealer through and through, and what I write should
show that. I guess I can't please everyone, although I sure try to.
It's a difficult business I am in, but someone has to do it.

Wait until you read my June story before you pass final judgement on
where I stand. Frankly (no pun intended), if you want to know my
personal opinion on this issue, if I were in business again, I would
not use this method of connection. NOT because of code, but because of
the possible legal issues. My story goes into this area as well to a
small degree. Believe me, I present both sides of the arguement and I
believe I presented them fairly.

Unfortunately, I wrote it before Robert Bass ever raised the question,
so I did not quote anyone who has discussed this issue in the news
group. Perhaps we can all work together on a story of some kind in the
future though. Would you and others who frequent this news group be
willing to do that?

Thanks for being concerned about this industry enough to voice your
opposition to what I wrote. I thank Robert Bass as well. It's always
good to have the other take on things. Believe me, I don't take any of
this personal, or I certainly try not to.

Al

 

[Frank Olson]

That might be true in some places but where I worked it was not. We had
to pull electrical permits for low voltage work in most CT towns. With
new construction the alarm wiring was inspected along with the electrical
system.

In my experience the alarm wiring is rarely questioned or even looked at.
It falls into the same category as Cat 5, telephone, and TV cable wiring.
All "low priority" stuff. What the inspector looks for is proper placement
of the 110VAC smoke alarms and that's about as far as he goes with anything
to do with "alarms".

On completion of new construction jobs, if there were smokes involved, the
alarm system was also inspected. On retrofit jobs some towns would
inspect the installation and some did not.

Inspectors here don't even inquire what the alarm wiring's for. We run
18-5 fire cable to the smoke alarm locations on every pre-wire, then, when
the homeowner elects to install his security system we can replace the
110VAC units with supervised 12VDC photo-electric ones if the customer so
desires. This, of course is done with the "blessing" of the AHJ, but even
if we didn't have it, I seriously doubt any would complain as what we're
providing far exceeds the 110V "cheapies".

 

[Frank Olson]

Frank, you and I know that in retrofit situations, the AHJ hardly ever
gets a phone call. So, you will always find tradesmen who will install
stuff to suit themselves all the while ignoring code. What I published
is not new and the issue of dealing in two venues, one code compliant
and the other not, is not new as well.

Check. What you stated however was completely code compliant. Robert
disagreed and he's been proven wrong... *again*. I'm concerned with
providing the very best the industry has to offer to my customers and I
don't believe in compromising one thing just to get an order. If any of my
people did this, they'd be hustled out the door so fast the rubber on the
soles of their shoes would melt from the friction.

When the AHJ sees nothing wrong with it, it's a go. When the AHJ says
no, it's no. The world of code has two distinctly different venues as
well. One is what's in the book and the other one is what's in the
field. Some of us go entirely by the book for everything we do, some
of us don't even own a code book and know nothing about what's in one,
and the other of us try to go by the book when it's practical while
doing what seems right for the client. I see no absolute black and
white associated with this issue.

That's interesting. I live in a world of absolutes. I don't compromise
life safety. There is no "cheap solution" or "fix". Period. What I took
exception to was Robert's assertion that you were wrong in that what you
suggested was a code violation. It's not. Robert's frequently accused me
of not knowing "US Code" (or any code for that matter) and that I don't
install for a living. I've proven him wrong on the one, and drat! We're
out of apple pies!

I respect your position, for where you now stand I stood at one time.
Believe me, I'm a dealer through and through, and what I write should
show that. I guess I can't please everyone, although I sure try to.
It's a difficult business I am in, but someone has to do it.

It's not that difficult I should think. Nice office. Nice computer.
Probably a nice secretary too. When do I start?? )

Wait until you read my June story before you pass final judgement on
where I stand.

I'm glad you've decided to "clarify" the matter somewhat either way. That's
what I call being a "professional".

Frankly (no pun intended), if you want to know my
personal opinion on this issue, if I were in business again, I would
not use this method of connection. NOT because of code, but because of
the possible legal issues. My story goes into this area as well to a
small degree. Believe me, I present both sides of the arguement and I
believe I presented them fairly.

I couldn't give a "tinkers damn" over the "legalities". I do right by my
customers and sleep very well at night to boot.

Unfortunately, I wrote it before Robert Bass ever raised the question,
so I did not quote anyone who has discussed this issue in the news
group. Perhaps we can all work together on a story of some kind in the
future though. Would you and others who frequent this news group be
willing to do that?

Having written several articles for other journals as well as hosted a
couple of radio talk shows that discussed security issues, I certainly
wouldn't mind one bit.

Thanks for being concerned about this industry enough to voice your
opposition to what I wrote. I thank Robert Bass as well. It's always
good to have the other take on things. Believe me, I don't take any of
this personal, or I certainly try not to.

I'm still trying to get over the "frankly" pun... Grrr!!!

 

[Robert L. Bass]

In my experience the alarm wiring is

rarely questioned or even looked at.

Needless to say, your experience and mine are from different locations. It
should come as no surprise that we differ.

It falls into the same category as Cat 5,
telephone, and TV cable wiring...

All of which are supposed to be permitted, inspected and approved (or not)
where I worked.

All "low priority" stuff. What the inspector
looks for is proper placement of the 110VAC
smoke alarms and that's about as far as he
goes with anything to do with "alarms".

In most town is CT any current carrying conductors, even including coax
antenna leads were subject to inspection by the AHJ. Some towns were
stricter than others. Some places didn't care about anything carrying less
than 50 Volts. Others required a permit and inspection for every piece of
copper you installed -- hint: more permit fees. :^)

Inspectors here don't even inquire what the
alarm wiring's for. We run 18-5 fire cable to
the smoke alarm locations on every pre-wire...

Presumably you leave the 18-gauge outside the octo-boxes until you're ready
to do the takeover, yes?

then, when the homeowner elects to install
his security system we can replace the 110VAC units with supervised 12VDC
photo-electric ones if the customer so desires.
This, of course is done with the "blessing" of
the AHJ, but even if we didn't have it, I
seriously doubt any would complain as what
we're providing far exceeds the 110V "cheapies".

I brought that up with an inspector once when the client only wanted one
system smoke in an older home. The inspector insisted that if we put in a
single smoke we must install the whole kit and caboodle per NFPA standards.
The homeowner declined any smoke protection at all rather than pay for a
major project. That particular inspector also had a habit of refusing to
accept fire/burg combo panels on residences. He said that he was worried
the homeowner might decide to take the panel with him when he sells, leaving
the smokes inoperable. That was Windsor, CT. There was nothing we could do
but install a separate, small FACP next to the burglar alarm control panel.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Check. What you stated however was completely code compliant. Robert

disagreed and he's been proven wrong... *again*.

Nope. You've only got some folks stating their opinions... *again*.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

I've truly enjoyed debating this with you Robert.

It proves to me that someone can seriously
disagree with you and you will treat them civilly
and with respect.

But of course. You've been civil and I've tried to return the courtesy.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Why are you telling me that?

I snipped your garbage, leaving only Frank's quote. I'm fairly certain you
know I don't consider you civil.

 

[Frank Olson]

Needless to say, your experience and mine are from different locations.
It should come as no surprise that we differ.


All of which are supposed to be permitted, inspected and approved (or not)
where I worked.


In most town is CT any current carrying conductors, even including coax
antenna leads were subject to inspection by the AHJ. Some towns were
stricter than others. Some places didn't care about anything carrying
less than 50 Volts. Others required a permit and inspection for every
piece of copper you installed -- hint: more permit fees. :^)


Presumably you leave the 18-gauge outside the octo-boxes until you're
ready to do the takeover, yes?

Nope. They're tagged "for alarm system use only".

I brought that up with an inspector once when the client only wanted one
system smoke in an older home. The inspector insisted that if we put in a
single smoke we must install the whole kit and caboodle per NFPA
standards.

The inspector has a valid point. If it's an "older home", it probably
doesn't have smoke alarms installed at all. I can understand his
reservations and why he would insist on the whole "kit and kaboodle". I'd
have argued that on most older multi-level homes a single smoke wouldn't be
adequate anyway, but at least it's better than "none at all". In my "neck
of the woods", most of the electrical inspectors are pretty reasonable to
deal with (except for Port Coquitlam).

The homeowner declined any smoke protection at all rather than pay for a
major project. That particular inspector also had a habit of refusing to
accept fire/burg combo panels on residences. He said that he was worried
the homeowner might decide to take the panel with him when he sells,
leaving the smokes inoperable. That was Windsor, CT. There was nothing
we could do but install a separate, small FACP next to the burglar alarm
control panel.

Hmmm... I thought the "homeowner declined".

 

[Group Moderator]

Michael Sabodish, Sr., 894 Highway 34, Matawan, NJ 07747, 732-494-0288
wrote:

Yes, but that was not the subject at hand.

Mike Said:
What as http://www.goofysplace.com ?
Or was it your hostile divorce? See it on the Web:
http://www.jud2.state.ct.us/Civil_Inquiry/DispDetail.asp?DocNum=HHD-FA-00-0724905-S
I do live close to your step sister ; Virginia (Harry BUSH Bass)

What happened she never got married after you played doctor with her?

Organization:
Lakeside Systems Ltd
Virginia Bass
12 Wanamassa Point Road
Ocean, NJ 07712-4853
US
Phone: 732-988-6325
Email: [email protected]

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Nope. They're tagged "for alarm system use only".

Do you wait until the 110 VAC cables are removed from the breaker panel
before inserting the low voltage cables into the boxes?

The inspector has a valid point.

Agreed. Fortunately, the code has recently recognized the predicament this
creates for some owners of existing homes wanting to upgrade protection but
unable to afford a full-blown fire alarm system. They are finally being
allowed to add partial system protection where a system is not mandatory,
such as existing structures or places where interconnected 110 VAC smokes
are already in place.

Hmmm... I thought the "homeowner declined".

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. The last sentence referred to other clients in
that town. The first was an existing home with 110VAC smokes. In that case
he did decline. In other (mainly new construction) jobs in Windsor we had
to install separate panels.

The situation was all the more frustrating because there were two inspectors
in Windsor and only one refused to sign off on a combined system. You never
knew in advance which one was going to inspect the job.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>