Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

[Robert L. Bass]

A "listed FACP" can be a residential security system, but not the other

way around.

You are wrong once again. A burg/fire panel which bears a UL fire listing
is indeed a FACP.

Yes. I see the reference in NFPA. What I fail to see (and still don't)
is any reference to it being UL listed in either the "help file" or the
program...

I wrote the help file and helped design the app. My partners wrote the app.
When I finished my work the app as a whole, including the integral help
system, was submitted to UL. It passed on the first round.

The help system is as essential to the app as the installation manual is to
the panel itself. Just as the installation manual is UL listed, so is the
downloading software which we wrote.

The UL listing was provided to Edwards by UL after we finished our work and
I do not have (nor do I need) a copy of the certificate. If you want to see
the listing, order the software from Edwards or research it through UL.

If you'd be so good as to point out where
it *is* listed, I'd be much obliged and will
promptly "shut-the-flock-up".

The UL listing information is included in the printed materials supplied
with the software. I'm not sure but I thought Leuck said he has a copy.
It's questionable whether he is honest enough to confirm what I've said
though.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

We're talking about a residential security system (or auto-dialler), *not*

a listed fire alarm system.

You fail to understand that residential fire alarms are covered by the same
code.

Attaching a fire detection device to your
residential security system does *not* turn
it into a fire alarm system!

That's where you are mistaken. When you use an alarm system to detect fire
the system and all of components must comply with fire alarm code.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

And once again you've misunderstood code. You cannot use a non-listed
panel for fire alarm.

It's *not* a fire alarm!! I'll say it again... "It's not a fire alarm".
And no matter what "spin" you put on it you can't turn a residential
security panel into a listed fire alarm system (no matter what you do to
it).

That's a code violation all by itself. Are you suggesting that Al
intended for techs to install non-listed panels in fire alarms?

Nope. I'm not suggesting that at all. You can connect a 110VAC smoke alarm
to any residential alarm panel though (as long as you're using a relay
that's compatible with the smoke alarm).

He makes occasional mistakes but nothing like that. Let's not be
unduly hard on the guy.

He hasn't made *any* suggestion here that violates any specific code,
statute or local bylaw. To even suggest such a thing and support it with
this type of phraseology is just your speed.

Yes, and it's clearly wrong.

In your opinion as well as mine. It's not a "code violation" though.

Well, there you have it. But just because you haven't read the code does
not make it OK to ignore it. I realize you're not in the USA so it's
almost that you don't understand our codes and laws.

Now you're saying I haven't read the code as well as stating that I don't
understand what I've read. You're wrong on both counts. What's next??
You're going to go back to telling people I work behind a counter??

 

[Frank Olson]

You fail to understand that residential fire alarms are covered by the
same code.

Residential fire alarms are, yes. Residential security systems are not.
Every residential security system out there is capable of being programmed
to monitor fire detection devices (even the non-UL listed ones). There is
no requirement to upgrade such a panel to one that's UL listed for fire if
the homeowner decides to add a relay to monitor his smoke alarms.

That's where you are mistaken. When you use an alarm system to detect
fire the system and all of components must comply with fire alarm code.

A *fire* alarm system, yes. A burg system that the customer's decided to
terminate his smoke alarms into... No. There is no code or statute that
magically transforms a residential security system into a listed fire alarm
system (even the connection of fire alarm devices that are listed for use
with the basic alarm panel). If you were to extend this argument along the
lines you advocate, you'd have to provide manual initiating stations, ADA
approved visual appliances, etc. Get real, Robert. There's no harm in
admitting you're wrong.

 

[Frank Olson]

The NFPA code says you're wrong.

What "NFPA code"?? Everything you've posted so far to support your argument
has to do with listed fire alarm systems. We're talking an over-the-counter
residential alarm panel (or auto-dialler take your pick). There is no NFPA
code that states I can't hook up my 110VAC smoke alarms (through a relay
compatible with the smoke alarm) to my home's monitored alarm system. You
can twist and turn any which way you want, but you're still wrong. There's
no statute or code that will magically transform my home's monitored alarm
system into a fire alarm system either. I suppose everyone with the earlier
versions of the ELK M-1 Gold (that purchased smoke detectors from you to
connect to it as well) were sold an UL listed fire alarm panel and those
unfortunate customers have two keypads mounted next to each other. Hope you
managed to find one that looks nice sitting to the ELK keypad.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Frank.......the code he references is the
code according to Bass.......
He gets like that when he leaves the country for
long periods.......

Norm Mugford

 

[Norm Mugford]

Mr Bass wrote:

"I suspect that if anyone else had brought this up Frank would agree with
them".

Support your comments with fact Mr. Bass or forever shut up.
You lied, and got caught at it again..........

Tick, tick, ti,,,,,,,..........._____________________


Norm Mugford

 

[Robert L. Bass]

It's *not* a fire alarm!! I'll say it again...

and again... and again...

And you will still be wrong.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

You fail to understand that residential

Residential fire alarms are, yes.
Residential security systems are not.

That's where you've got it wrong. The UL Residential Fire listing makes no
distinction between a residential fire only system (which is practically
unheard of) and a fire / burg system. If the panel is listed, use it for
fire. If not, don't. Either way, anything you use to connect smokes to an
alarm system must be listed for the purpose. The code is clear and simple
about that.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Frank.......the code he references is the
code according to Bass.......
He gets like that when he leaves the country for
long periods.......

As usual, Mr. Mugford contributes nothing of value to the discussion.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

If I was to add anything to the discussion...

So far you have yet to offer anything but vulgar, personal attacks.

 

[Norm Mugford]

If I was to add anything to the discussion,
I would back it up with fact.....in this case
I'd offer the code up for discussion.

Norm Mugford

 

[Frank Olson]

This is where you misunderstand the US code. You cannot use a non-listed
panel for fire detection in the US.

I can use any panel I like to monitor my home's smoke alarms without
restriction. There is no code requirement except the one stipulating to the
proper placement and use of 110VAC smoke alarms (for a single family
dwelling). If I decide to use the listed relay sold with most 110VAC smoke
alarms to hook into an on premise bell, strobe, auto-dialler, or burg panel
zone there's nothing in the code that says I *can't* and no AHJ who's going
to forbid me from doing it.

If you do so, you then have a fire alarm which violates code.

B.S.! I don't have a "fire alarm" at all. I have a monitored security
system that happens to have several fire detection components attached to
it. The fact that it's UL listed for burg/fire doesn't make it a fire alarm
panel anymore than I require a second digital communicator if I intend to
send signals to my CS that include fire. You're saying that any residential
burg system that is also listed for fire would have to meet "code" if you're
going to add even one smoke detector. This would mean additional sounders,
manual stations, strobes, smokes, heats, etc. Like I'm really sure you're
ensuring your customers meet that requirement when they order from you...

Using a non-listed panel is a violation all by itself.

Uh-huh... sure... Please provide chapter and verse of any code, statute or
local bylaw you care to name. I suppose you've advised every customer (and
their AHJ) that you've sold an M1 Gold to, that their system violates
code... Ri-i-g-ght!!

Using the Firex relay with a non-listed control panel only compounds the
code violation.

Well, Robert... the relay provides a normally open/normally closed switch.
I can wire that to pretty well anything I darn well please including my
washing machine (nothing like the scent of Lemon Tide to overcome that nasty
smoke odor).

This is so fundamental that I suspect you know I'm right but you won't
ever admit it.

What's patently obvious is that you don't understand the difference between
a listed fire alarm system and a residential security system (or
auto-dialler). You keep trying to equate one with the other and no matter
how much you try, that square peg won't go into the round hole.

 

[Frank Olson]

and again... and again...

And you will still be wrong.

NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of
single-or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such
as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone
dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be
permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to
these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the
single- or multiple-station alarm.

 

[Frank Olson]

That's where you've got it wrong. The UL Residential Fire listing makes
no distinction between a residential fire only system (which is
practically unheard of) and a fire / burg system. If the panel is listed,
use it for fire. If not, don't. Either way, anything you use to connect
smokes to an alarm system must be listed for the purpose. The code is
clear and simple about that.

NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of
single-or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such
as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone
dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be
permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to
these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the
single- or multiple-station alarm.

 

[Frank Olson]

If I was to add anything to the discussion,
I would back it up with fact.....in this case
I'd offer the code up for discussion.

You mean this one??

NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of
single-or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such
as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone
dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be
permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to
these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the
single- or multiple-station alarm.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Thank You Frank.......your a man of honorable mention.

BTW....does that code refer to 135 degree heat
detectors in attics too.....:^)

Norm Mugford

 

[Robert L. Bass]

I can use any panel I like to monitor my home's smoke alarms without

restriction...

You are in Canada. I'll leave that matter to Canadian authorities. I'm in
the US and my comments refer to US installations.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of

single-or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such
as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone
dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall
be
permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading
to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the
single- or multiple-station alarm.

The devices also have to be listed for the purpose.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Thank You Frank.......your a man of honorable mention.

BTW....does that code refer to 135 degree heat
detectors in attics too.....:^)

Nope. That one's not in the code. The code writers figured no one would be
stupid enough to suggest using 135 degree heats in an attic...