Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

[Robert L. Bass]

So you're saying...
--- snip ---

I said I've no interest in digging it up. Look for yourself if you want to
learn.

you keep referring to a residential security system (or an auto dialler)
as a "listed FACP"...

I made no such reference. The rest of your comments were irrelevant to the
discussion at hand.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Heh... A permit may be required...

--- snip ---

That has nothing to do with the fact that code does not allow connection of
smoke detectors, using the device in question to an alarm control panel.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

What part of what Al wrote about

interconnecting smoke alarms to a
security system says "fire alarm"?

In the USA fire alarm code applies to smoke detectors and anything else used
to detect and warn of fire. Using something which is not listed for the
purpose doesn't turn a non-compliant installation into a compliant one. If
the system includes smoke or fire detectors then it is a fire alarm and it
is subject to code (wherever code actually exists). I included the
parenthetical phrase only because there are still a small percentage of
communities where there is no code at all.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

I sent Al an e-mail expressing my concerns regarding use of the non-listed
device at the same time as I opened this discussion. We'll to see his
comments in SSI. Since he and I have disagreed on politics (though not on
trade practices) I'll be interested to see to whom he gives credit for the
correction. :^)

All kidding aside, Al's a good guy. I enjoy his articles. He knows a lot
but he's not infallible and this was a mistake on his part.

There is no "correction" required, Robert (other than you now have to remove
the other foot from your mouth). Al's only mistake (in my opinion at least)
was advocating this method as a means of saving the client money. I don't
think life safety should ever be compromised with what I can only term a
"band-aid" solution.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Frank, you're being too sensitive to things ! I didn't respond with any
kind of authority of any kind. My sources in the industry tell me things
which unless I have reason to doubt them (and in this case I don't...), I
usually take them at face value until I find out otherwise. Nor does it
really matter to me whether it is true or not; it's a damn stupid thing to
do to hook up anything that has a known problem that could potentially
cause a false alarm that costs the city $1500 every time they send out a
fire truck (and no...I don't know that $ figure for sure either....just
what I've been told)

Lean back Frank....take a deep breath....life can be beautiful....)))

I suspect that if anyone else had brought this up Frank would agree with
them.

 

[Frank Olson]

In the USA fire alarm code applies to smoke detectors and anything else
used to detect and warn of fire. Using something which is not listed for
the purpose doesn't turn a non-compliant installation into a compliant
one. If the system includes smoke or fire detectors then it is a fire
alarm and it is subject to code (wherever code actually exists). I
included the parenthetical phrase only because there are still a small
percentage of communities where there is no code at all.

Show me the part of the code that magically converts a burglar alarm panel
to a fire alarm system with the addition of fire detectors! You keep
"flogging this poor horse" Robert. Give it up. You are wrong.

 

[Frank Olson]

I suspect that if anyone else had brought this up Frank would agree with
them.

Wrong again!!

 

[Frank Olson]

That has nothing to do with the fact that code does not allow connection
of smoke detectors, using the device in question to an alarm control
panel.

I'd suggest you read the code before you comment further. I have, and
there's nothing in it prohibiting me from connecting 110VAC smoke alarms to
a monitored security system (or auto dialler) as long as you're using a
relay compatible with the smoke alarms. "Doug L" has also commented on
this.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

IMO this is wide open to interpretation

by the AHJ, since using auxilary contacts...

[sigh] This is so basic that even Doug ought to know it. Note the word,
"fundamentals" below. Anyone who actually does this stuff for a living
ought to be familiar with the code. Those who don't know are welcome to
speculate as to whether some inspector might or might not allow them to use
a non-listed device in a manner which is non-compliant.

"NFPA72 FUNDAMENTALS OF FIRE ALARM SYSTEMS 72-21
1-5 Fundamentals.
1-5.1 Common System Fundamentals.
1-5.1.2 Equipment. Equipment constructed and installed in conformity with
this code shall be listed for the purpose for which it is used."

"1-5.3 Compatibility. All fire detection devices that receive their power
from the initiating device circuit or signaling line circuit of a fire alarm
control unit shall be listed for use with the control unit."

Oh by the way, the following is in reply to Frank's repeated challenges
regarding the UL listing of the software which my company wrote for Edwards.

"3-2.3 Software and Firmware Control.
3-2.3.1 All software and firmware provided with a fire alarm system shall be
listed for use with the fire alarm control unit."

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Check my reply to Doug. I quoted chapter and verse from NFPA.

Separate subject -- I also quoted the part where a UL listing is required
for the software which my company wrote for Edwards. You might recall the
discussion.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

All kidding aside, Al's a good guy. I enjoy

There is no "correction" required, Robert

The NFPA code says you're wrong.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Residential 110VAC smoke detectors are

generally not required to be supervised...

However, smoke detectors which are connected to a FACP are required to be
supervised. Even you ought to know that much.

The operation of the required devices, IE
the smoke detectors would be the critical
code issue, not the auxiliary relay.

To be connected to a FACP the devices must be listed for the purpose.
110VAC smokes are not listed for connection to a FACP. You can disregard
Frank's erroneous comments to the effect that a panel which is not listed
for fire obviates code compliance.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Show me the part of the code that

magically converts a burglar alarm
panel to a fire alarm system with
the addition of fire detectors!...

This is where you misunderstand the US code. You cannot use a non-listed
panel for fire detection in the US. If you do so, you then have a fire
alarm which violates code. Using a non-listed panel is a violation all by
itself. Using the Firex relay with a non-listed control panel only
compounds the code violation.

This is so fundamental that I suspect you know I'm right but you won't ever
admit it.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

However, smoke detectors which are connected to a FACP are required to be
supervised. Even you ought to know that much.


To be connected to a FACP the devices must be listed for the purpose.
110VAC smokes are not listed for connection to a FACP. You can disregard
Frank's erroneous comments to the effect that a panel which is not listed
for fire obviates code compliance.

And once again you've missed the point of Al's article. He wasn't talking
about connecting a smoke alarm to a *listed FACP*. If you read the article
it's very clearly stated. There is nothing in any code, statute or bylaw
that I've found however, that forbids anyone from connecting a 110VAC smoke
alarm to any monitored security system (whether it's UL Listed or not) as
long as the interconnecting relay is compatible with the *smoke alarm*.
This applies to both US and Canadian (including inter-Provincial) codes. We
keep going around in circles because you refuse to read what's been put
before you in black and white (or whatever the heck colours you're using for
your Newsreader).

 

[Frank Olson]

Addendum:

In the last go around regarding this issue, Michael Baker quoted both
chapter and verse of NFPA (just as Doug has done here). You are wrong
Robert, but your heart is in the right place. I've maintained throughtout
this discussion (and the previous iterations as well) that using an
unsupervised life safety device in this manner is unsound, unprofessional,
and unsafe. I don't think anyone here (including you) would disagree on
that point.

 

[Frank Olson]

Check my reply to Doug. I quoted chapter and verse from NFPA.

Wrong chapter. Wrong verse. A "listed FACP" can be a residential security
system, but not the other way around.

Separate subject -- I also quoted the part where a UL listing is required
for the software which my company wrote for Edwards. You might recall the
discussion.

Yes. I see the reference in NFPA. What I fail to see (and still don't) is
any reference to it being UL listed in either the "help file" or the
program. If you'd be so good as to point out where it *is* listed, I'd be
much obliged and will promptly "shut-the-flock-up".

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Note the phrase...

Note the phrase "shall be listed," friend. It applies to virtually every
device which is connected to a fire alarm system except things like screws,
batteries, etc. Even the alarm circuit wire must be listed for the purpose.
Explain how it suddenly becomes code compliant to interconnect 110VAC smokes
are not listed for use with an alarm control panel and a relay which is also
not listed for the purpose.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

To be connected to a FACP the devices must be listed for the purpose.

And once again you've missed the point of Al's article. He wasn't talking
about connecting a smoke alarm to a *listed FACP*...

And once again you've misunderstood code. You cannot use a non-listed panel
for fire alarm. That's a code violation all by itself. Are you suggesting
that Al intended for techs to install non-listed panels in fire alarms? He
makes occasional mistakes but nothing like that. Let's not be unduly hard
on the guy.

If you read the article it's very clearly stated...

Yes, and it's clearly wrong.

There is nothing in any code, statute or bylaw that I've found however...

Well, there you have it. But just because you haven't read the code does
not make it OK to ignore it. I realize you're not in the USA so it's almost
that you don't understand our codes and laws.

We keep going around in circles...

Speak for yourself.

 

[Frank Olson]

I said I've no interest in digging it up. Look for yourself if you want
to learn.

I have, and have yet to come across anything to support your argument.

I made no such reference.

You have repeatedly. Even in the response in which you quoted "chapter and
verse" of NFPA you're referencing *listed fire alarm systems* and not
residential security systems. You continually try to equate the two in
order to support your arguments. It's not working.

 

[Frank Olson]

Note the phrase "shall be listed," friend. It applies to virtually every
device which is connected to a fire alarm system

<snip>

You're doing it again!! We're talking about a residential security system
(or auto-dialler), *not* a listed fire alarm system. Attaching a fire
detection device to your residential security system does *not* turn it into
a fire alarm system!