Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

[Norm Mugford]

The code Mr. Bass speaks of is the "USA" code.
More commonly known as a referrence to himself.
"U Stupid Ass".

What he says must be officiated by someone with
common sense of which Mr. Bass has none, nor does he
have a fire alarm license (which he can't pass the test)
to backup his stupid comments.

Norm Mugford

 

[coord]

news:[email protected]...

The NEC mandates smoke detection in every single family dwelling and specifies the areas that
are required to be covered. There is nothing in the NEC that states you can't hook up your AC
smoke alarm to your security system or an auto-dialler. I can do anything I damn well please
in my own house. I don't even have to pull a permit.

Hmmm....believe it or not there are some US jurisdictions where a permit is required for interior
*painting*..."my home is my castle" may not apply... ;-)

 

[Norm Mugford]

Mr. Bass...before you put you mouth in motion,
make sure your brain is engaged...........

Quote the code, NEC or NFPA not the code of Bass.

Next, your gonna say you can't hook a 135 degree heat detector
when installed in an attic, to a burg/fire panel because it
violates the code of Bass........

Beside who are you to publicly challenge an article
written in an industry magazine.

It's the man's opinion, not fact Mr. Bass.

The more you open your mouth Mr. Bass.
The more you demonstrate why you're unlicensed.

Norm Mugford

 

[Nick Markowitz]

I talked to Al about that piece and he is doing additonal research and will
have additional comments covering the issue for clarification.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.
Qualified Electrical- Fire Alarm Contractor
Registered EPA Freon Recovery

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contributor www.monyoughfire.com
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

Irish Diplomacy

The ability to tell a man to go to hell and he tells you how much he is
going to enjoy the trip.

 

[Nick Markowitz]

Once again It looks like Bob is wrong again.
It apears to be left up to the AHJ for the decision
but personally I would not do it out of concern of false alarms failure to
work during power failure ad I have seen some of the earlier relays which
dropped durng a power faiure as well. From what Al tells me he will be
covering all the aspects in the follow up.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.
Qualified Electrical- Fire Alarm Contractor
Registered EPA Freon Recovery

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contributor www.monyoughfire.com
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

Irish Diplomacy

The ability to tell a man to go to hell and he tells you how much he is
going to enjoy the trip.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Thank You Nick.....the proper comment to address the issue.
No challenge, nor derogitory statements, just a follow up
to a concern.

Norm Mugford

PS...Maybe Mr. Bass can learn from it.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Don't try to act like a "Professional Alarm Installer"
of which you are not Mr. Bass. You're just a "DIY"
salesperson with a multiple felony background, and you
don't have the "trust" from any professional to comment on
real industry issues that relate to fire alarms or any other
alarms.

Norm Mugford

 

[Robert L. Bass]

The instructions from Firex state: "The

Relay Module is not recommended for use with authomatic dialers or
security
alarm panels". That's a far cry from "specifically stating" you can't
use it like
that, though.

In order to use it with a fire alarm it must be *listed for the purpose.*
What part of "not recommended" do you read as making it listed for the
purpose?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

The code Mr. Bass speaks of is the "USA" code.
More commonly known as a referrence to himself.
"U Stupid Ass".

More typical trash talking from the vice chair of the Florida ECLB. Nice,
professionalism there, Mugford.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Mr. Bass...before you put you mouth in motion,
make sure your brain is engaged...........

Before commenting in a public forum, I suggest you try to be a bit more
professional. When a member of the ECLB behaves as you do in public you
debase the industry, not to mention the Florida ECLB.

Quote the code, NEC or NFPA not the code of Bass.

Like Bob Campbell, I've no inclination to spend the time looking it up.

Next, your gonna say you can't hook a 135 degree heat detector
when installed in an attic, to a burg/fire panel because it
violates the code of Bass........

No, Mugford. I said you shouldn't do that because it's dumb to use the
wrong detector for the job.

Beside who are you to publicly challenge an article
written in an industry magazine.

Since I have more experience in the industry than you and (judging from your
recent gaff related to ROR detectors) more knowledge of fire alarm
practices, I'd say I have every right to correct a colleague's error.

It's the man's opinion, not fact Mr. Bass.

Since it was published in a trade rag which is read by thousands of new
techs, it's extremely important that errorneous statements be corrected.
Perhaps you don't think that matters, but I do.

The more you open your mouth Mr. Bass.
The more you demonstrate why you're unlicensed.

Norm Mugford

The more you post to this forum, the more you demonstrate your lack of
professionalism, Mr. Mugford. How unfortunate for the tradesmen who come
before your board.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Once again It looks like Bob is wrong again.
It apears to be left up to the AHJ for the decision

The interpretation and application of the fire code is always left to the
discretion of the AHJ. That does not obviate adherence to the code. By
such logic you could claim that it's OK to advise people to connect smokes
to a lawnmower. After all, it's up to the AHJ to decide... :^)

but personally I would not do it out of concern
of false alarms failure to work during power
failure ad I have seen some of the earlier relays
which dropped durng a power faiure as well...

There are at least two problems with these relays which make them
unacceptable to code. First, there is no way to supervise them or the
110VAC smokes to which they are connected. Wiring to system smoke detectors
must be supervised. Second, the relay is inoperable during a power outage.
These are critical code issues -- not minor questions of application.

From what Al tells me he will be
covering all the aspects in the follow up.

I notified Al of his error at the same time that I brought the matter up
here. Presumably he will display the integrity to admit the mistake in an
upcoming issue of SSI. I don't anticipate anything similar on the part of
certain participants here though.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Don't try to act like a "Professional Alarm Installer"
of which you are not Mr. Bass. You're just a "DIY"
salesperson with a multiple felony background, and you
don't have the "trust" from any professional to comment on
real industry issues that relate to fire alarms or any other
alarms.

Norm Mugford

You are a liar.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Mr. Bass wrote:

"Since I have more experience in the industry than you and (judging from
your
recent gaff related to ROR detectors) more knowledge of fire alarm
practices", I'd say I have every right to correct a colleague's error.

Did I say ROR?......you're lieing again Mr. Bass.

Mr. BAss wrote:

"I'd say I have every right to correct a colleague's error".


You have every right to keep your opinions to yourself,
Mr. Bass, and we all know you can't do that.....You
are not a colleague of Al Colombo....You are a
"DIY" salesperson, with a felony background........
Not an Alarm Professional. IMO.
When will you get that through your thick skull.

Norm Mugford

 

[Frank Olson]

In order to use it with a fire alarm it must be *listed for the purpose.*
What part of "not recommended" do you read as making it listed for the
purpose?

What part of what Al wrote about interconnecting smoke alarms to a security
system says "fire alarm"?

 

[Frank Olson]

Dunno Frank on both counts. Since I don't do it anyway, and based on how
many dealers have told me it is so, I take it on good faith. I don't
really have the inclination to chase down the exact code amendment on
it...

This certainly isn't meant as a flame Bob, but you responded to my post with
the "authority" of what you've *heard*?? Without checking the facts first??
You're getting to be as bad as Robert. )

 

[Frank Olson]

Hmmm....believe it or not there are some US jurisdictions where a permit
is required for interior *painting*..."my home is my castle" may not
apply... ;-)

Heh... A permit may be required to change the oil in the car parked in your
own garage, but how many would take the time (or even be inclined to spend
the money) to get one?? Who's going to be the wiser if you're doing your
own renovations?? There are hundreds of homes in BC that have been *ruined*
by idiots with Pot grow-ops who've made "interior renovations" without their
landlord's knowledge (ie. cored holes through foundations for venting, run
bypasses on the electric and gas meters, etc.). In many instances the homes
have been left in such a state (due to the high humidity, the damage to
partition walls, etc.) that they have to be demolished. And those are only
the ones where the growers have been "busted"...

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Frank, you're being too sensitive to things ! I didn't respond with any kind
of authority of any kind. My sources in the industry tell me things which
unless I have reason to doubt them (and in this case I don't...), I usually
take them at face value until I find out otherwise. Nor does it really
matter to me whether it is true or not; it's a damn stupid thing to do to
hook up anything that has a known problem that could potentially cause a
false alarm that costs the city $1500 every time they send out a fire truck
(and no...I don't know that $ figure for sure either....just what I've been
told)

Lean back Frank....take a deep breath....life can be beautiful....)))

RHC

 

[Frank Olson]

Like Bob Campbell, I've no inclination to spend the time looking it up.

So you're saying you don't really know for sure and this "storm in a teapot"
is based on the fact that you keep referring to a residential security
system (or an auto dialler) as a "listed FACP". I have two copies of the
NEC here (a hard cover from 1999 and the subscription binder which is kept
current at our local library) and there is *NO* specific prohibition on
interconnecting an AC smoke alarm to a residential (or commercial) security
panel or auto dialler. You cannot connect a smoke alarm to a listed FACP,
and that isn't what Al was suggesting in his article. There's also no
provision for upgrading the status of a residential burg system to a "listed
FACP" with the connection of even listed fire detetection devices (which you
seem to *think* there is). And no mention of using a control that's UL
Listed for fire in a monitored residential system that incorporates fire
detection. The "UL Listing" is at best a method of "massaging" your
insurance company into believing you've got a "quality alarm product"
installed in your home and used as a sales tool by the local alarm company.
NEC (and the local AHJ) could care less what a company (or even a homeowner
doing DIY) installs as long as the wiring meets code and the detectors are
UL Listed for the purpose.

 

[Frank Olson]

Frank, you're being too sensitive to things ! I didn't respond with any
kind of authority of any kind. My sources in the industry tell me things
which unless I have reason to doubt them (and in this case I don't...), I
usually take them at face value until I find out otherwise. Nor does it
really matter to me whether it is true or not; it's a damn stupid thing to
do to hook up anything that has a known problem that could potentially
cause a false alarm that costs the city $1500 every time they send out a
fire truck (and no...I don't know that $ figure for sure either....just
what I've been told)

Lean back Frank....take a deep breath....life can be beautiful....)))

Heh. Life *is* beautiful. I just don't believe everything I read in this
Newsgroup (or what I hear) unless it can be substantiated with a bona-fide
reference. I'll check the Ontario Building Code and let you know.

If you read my responses in this thread (and in the others where Robert's
mentioned this issue), you'll find I don't advocate doing this either. IMO,
a professional installer should recommend the best methods of protecting his
clients and not compromise for the sake of $40.00 or even $100.00.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

I talked to Al about that piece and he is doing additonal research and will
have additional comments covering the issue for clarification.

I sent Al an e-mail expressing my concerns regarding use of the non-listed
device at the same time as I opened this discussion. We'll to see his
comments in SSI. Since he and I have disagreed on politics (though not on
trade practices) I'll be interested to see to whom he gives credit for the
correction. :^)

All kidding aside, Al's a good guy. I enjoy his articles. He knows a lot
but he's not infallible and this was a mistake on his part.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>