E
Eeyore
Phil said:"Scott Dorsey Notorious Charlatan"
path.
** Huh ??
A few HUNDRED times ???????
The colossal fool must be on LSD.
The EQ section alone on a Neve V series (and derivatives) has 18 op-amp stages.
Graham
Phil said:"Scott Dorsey Notorious Charlatan"
path.
** Huh ??
A few HUNDRED times ???????
The colossal fool must be on LSD.
Phil said:The EQ section alone on a Neve V series (and derivatives) has 18 op-amp
stages.
Arny Krueger said:Something like The Second Coming?
The EQ section alone on a Neve V series (and derivatives) has 18 op-amp stages.
MooseFET said:It isn't hard to end up with that many. 1 per band per channel plus a
few will get you to 20 without working at it. To get above 100, you
are talking about a serious amount of more signal processing.
take something like crossover distortiuon for example...
in an open loop amp, crossover dist. creates lots of harmonics.
add neg feedback and they are all reduced. The high order ones are
not reduced AS MUCH as the low order ones, but they are certainly not
increased (assumming a proper design not on the verge of instability
and assuming the feedback componets themselves are linear, resistors
are usually linear for our purposes).
That's because of the falling loop gain with frequency of the amplifier. Not what I was
referring to.
You've missed the point I was making entirely. Other posters have explained it better than
myself however.
I guess I think phase for repeating waveforms.
Audio is like noise.
I haven't heard someone say "That noise is lagging by 40 degrees."
2 sine waves out of sync can be expressed by degrees or time delay.
Sure it can. Just put something that creates harmonics in the feedback
path.
Negative feedback relies on the feedback path being linear and having
low group delay. If these aren't the case, bad things can happen.
--scott
MooseFET said:No, I don't want crossover distortion.
How about thinking about a distortion that only adds, lets say the 2nd
harmonic to a sine wave. Think about what happens when that is
enclosed in a feedback loop. You take some of that second harmonic
from the output and feed it back into the input. The nonlinear
circuit takes the 2nd harmonic of the 2nd harmonic giving the forth
and sends that out the output. That forth comes back around and
around and around. A nonlinear cicrcuit that only made 2nd a harmonic
is now resulting in an infinite chain of frequencies.
This is not correct. You have to have an extraordinarily large phase
margin to not have a boost in the harmonic near the gain crossover.
If G is the forward gain from the point where the distortion is made
to the output and H is the rest feedback the math looks like:
G /(1 + GH)
Here's the very ugly bit:
The distortion is often created in the output section making the G
part unity or nearly so. A stable servo loop can have a phase margin
of 30 degrees.
1/(1 + 1 * 1@(180-30)) = 1/(1 - 0.866 + j0.5)
= 1/(0.134 + j0.5)
Take ABS()
ABS(1/(0.134 + j0.5)) = 1/sqrt(0.134^2 + 0.5^2) = 1.93
Even though this amplifier is very stable, the feedback loop doubles
the amplitude of the harmonic near the gain crossover.
[snip]No, I don't want crossover distortion.
How about thinking about a distortion that only adds, lets say the 2nd
harmonic to a sine wave. Think about what happens when that is
enclosed in a feedback loop. You take some of that second harmonic
from the output and feed it back into the input. The nonlinear
circuit takes the 2nd harmonic of the 2nd harmonic giving the forth
and sends that out the output. That forth comes back around and
around and around. A nonlinear cicrcuit that only made 2nd a harmonic
is now resulting in an infinite chain of frequencies.
Eeyore said:What's the K1 like then ?
MooseFET said:It isn't hard to end up with that many. 1 per band per channel plus a
few will get you to 20 without working at it. To get above 100, you
are talking about a serious amount of more signal processing.
Eeyore said:The idea that you can 'get away' with sloppy circuitry for replay because the
source was in some way 'impaired' is totally false.
William said:I'm not sure that's right. My memory (which could be faulty) is that this
can be shown mathematically.
I'll ask around (I know a few people in high places) and see if I can get a
reference.
46 dB down, and 2 KHz that is 46 dB down. Run the output back through again,
and you get a nearly FS 1 KHz tone, DC that is still about 46 dB down, a 2
KHz tone that is about 46 dB down, and a 3 KHz tone that is about 92 dB
down.
Robert said:["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
Eeyore said:The idea that you can 'get away' with sloppy circuitry for replay because the
source was in some way 'impaired' is totally false.
I don't think anybody proposed "sloppy" circuitry for replay. The point is
that studio audio gear is just solid, reliable, conventional good audio
stuff (none of that high-end low-oxygen power cord crap). Plenty of opamps,
plenty of NFB, plenty of digital processing, plenty of all the things that
high-enders loathe.
Since the recording studio already did 90% of the work of completely
destroying the audio signal beyond repair, it doesn't matter how much your
home audio gear adds to that.
** Huh ??
A few HUNDRED times ???????
The colossal fool must be on LSD.
No, more like something out of Revelations.