Energy to build a PV cell?

[Don Lancaster]

OTOH, 5hrs a day insolation seems a bit light.

Cheers,
James Arthur

nope, that's all you get normalized for full output.

But you have to derate that for days of available sunshine and then for
tracking error and then for dirt and then for aging.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Don Lancaster]

nope, that's all you get normalized for full output.

But you have to derate that for days of available sunshine and then for
tracking error and then for dirt and then for aging.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

There is, of course, no point whatsoever in using conventional silicon
pv solar cells.

Conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and never will be capable
of ever becoming a renewabls and sustainable energy source.

Not one net watthour of silicon pv solar electrical energy has ever been
generated.

New technology involving CIGS may eventually get us as much as one third
of the way towards renewability and sustainability.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.
And http://www.tinaja.com/whanu06.asp for ongoing updates.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Joel Kolstad]

Hi Don,

I take it you're aware that Wikipedia disagrees with you insofar as whether or
not PV cells generate any net energy? -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell .

 

[Don Lancaster]

Hi Don,

I take it you're aware that Wikipedia disagrees with you insofar as whether or
not PV cells generate any net energy? -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell .

Wikipedia is, of course, not even wrong.

Yes, a silicon cell may be able to return as much as five times its
manufacturing energy at its terminals. This is not remotely enough for
NET energy breakeven.

The net energy analysis has to be done on the SYSTEM level, not the
panel level.

Use of an equivalence of one dime = one kilowatthour (as contractually
agreed to with your utility) greatly simplifies understanding why
conventional silicon pv never will be able to become renewable or
sustainable.

The amortization cost today of the synchronous inverter alone consumes
far more than 100 percent of the panel net energy.

Even if the cells were totally free.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/whtnu05.pdf for analysis of the inverter
situation. Particularly the February 17,2005 entry.


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Joel Kolstad]

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/whtnu05.pdf for analysis of the inverter
situation. Particularly the February 17,2005 entry.

That link doesn't work (the other one was OK).

 

[Don Lancaster]

That link doesn't work (the other one was OK).

Oops. should be -A

http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu05a.asp


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Hi Don,

I take it you're aware that Wikipedia disagrees with you insofar as whether or
not PV cells generate any net energy? -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell .

I grabbed a copy of the analysis they cite:
http://jupiter.clarion.edu/~jpearce/Papers/netenergy.pdf

Maybe my eyes are getting old, but I didn't see where they give a cost
per kW for the cells themselves, the system cost, maintenence costs or
anything. (I just did a search for '$').

 

[Glen Walpert]

There is, of course, no point whatsoever in using conventional silicon
pv solar cells.

Conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and never will be capable
of ever becoming a renewabls and sustainable energy source.

Until you redo that calculation at a future power price of about
$.50/KWH ... $.10 is already ancient history in most places, .50 and
higher is on the way.

For an 8 kW system at $45k installed, financing cost is about
$300/month and your avoided cost for a net metering hookup (you
wouldn't consider it if net metering wasn't available in your area) is
about 8 kW * 5 hours/day * 30 day/month * $.15 /KWH = $180/month saved
on your electricity bill right now if you live in sunny southern
California for example.

In another decade power prices will probably double and net metered
solar probably will pay back in some areas even if you don't use it to
avoid the cost of a diesel generator backup power system.

Not one net watthour of silicon pv solar electrical energy has ever been
generated.

Only true because you are comparing to the watthours you could buy
with the same money at todays prices, not true of actual electrical
watthours produced vs consumed in mfgr of the complete solar power
system.

New technology involving CIGS may eventually get us as much as one third
of the way towards renewability and sustainability.

Copper Indium Galliun Selenide solar cells may eventually replace
silicon solar cells, or mabey it will work out to be some other solar
cell technology, but they are still solar cells in my book, not yet to
be counted out as potentially useful.

And there are places where conventional silicon solar makes sense
right now, like my tree farm where I avoided the cost of 4 miles of
utility poles and wire required for a grid connection by using a 100
watt panel and a battery .

 

[Glen Walpert]

AFAIK, it starts with white sand -- clean enough for clear glass, about 99
to 99.5% pure -- which is smelted with carbon and sometimes iron to make
silicon or ferrosilicon, respectively. This requires an electric arc
furnace. (This can also make silicon carbide, but using more sand prevents
it, since 2SiC + SiO2 = 3Si + 2CO.) Most goes to metallurgy (all those 2 to
4% Si alloys for transformers don'tcha know..oh and cast iron....), but some
goes elsewhere.

You can react silicon with hot chlorine gas (tasty..) and fractionally
distill the silicon tetrachloride. This gets it to reasonable purity. The
gas can be decomposed on a hot wire, forming chlorine gas and silicon again.
Or does it need hydrogen (to reduce it, 2H2 + SiCl4 = 4HCl + Si), I forget.
You can run a continuous process where halogens come in and spirit away
metal, then deposit it on a hotwire. Since different chlorides decompose at
different temperatures, you can precisely control purity.

Afterwards, you get a polycrystalline rod of rather pure silicon, with a
thin impurity of say, tungsten in the middle, which can be thin enough
inside a thick bar of silicon that it doesn't matter (else you could...bore
it out, or, something). This stock is pure enough to melt in a silica bowl
and pull crystals from (Czochralski(sp?) method or zone refining).

Speaking of zone refining, you can also start with only somewhat pure
silicon and draw a melt zone across it (with fire or resistance or induction
heating). I don't know how they do that in a band, through the entire
thickness of a rod, without it falling, or if they just heat up a section so
impurities *diffuse* along, rather than actual melting. It might be they
fit the silicon inside a fused quartz tube, then remove it with hydrofluoric
acid to get bare silicon.

Nice info, but I think zone refining is ancient history today and most
purfication is done on gasseous SiH4 which is made from the SiCl4
which you have described the production of. Certainly all epitaxial
deposition is done from SiH4 which has been purified with molecular
sieves and the like.

 

[Don Lancaster]

For an 8 kW system at $45k installed, financing cost is about
$300/month and your avoided cost for a net metering hookup (you
wouldn't consider it if net metering wasn't available in your area) is
about 8 kW * 5 hours/day * 30 day/month * $.15 /KWH = $180/month saved
on your electricity bill right now if you live in sunny southern
California for example.

Net metering is a subsidy and a hideous tax on other users.
Simply stealing electricity from your neighbor makes more economic sense.

Further, a typical domestic synchronous inverter when fully and properly
amortized today requires more than 100 percent of the electricity sent
through it to pay for itself.

Proof of all this is very simple: Not one power utility anyplace
anywhere is routinely using conventional silicon pv for cost competitive
electrical generation.

The reason is that conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and
never will be renewable or sustainable. The latest of CIGS technology
MAY get us as much as one third of the way towards renewability and
sustainability.

And those utilities with solar array research facilities will not tell
you their avoided cost equivalence because it is ludicrously noncompetitive.

Note that when a pv panel matches the utility avoided cost, you have
gained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. All you have is an elaborate smoke and
mirrors "paint it green" use of conventional power sources.

Only when pv panels can provide energy at substantially under current
utility rates does sustainability emerge. And only on THAT FRACTION that
is below and displaces conventional sources.

The more conventional silicon pv panels that are installed, the FURTHER
in the future any possible renewability or sustainability will occur.

A reasonable estimate of the California energy subsidy is that it will
SET BACK pv renewability and sustainability by at least FIFTY YEARS.

See http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu06.asp for February 19th for an analysis.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a tutorial.



--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Jim Thompson]

[snip]

Conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and never will be capable
of ever becoming a renewabls and sustainable energy source.

Until you redo that calculation at a future power price of about
$.50/KWH ... $.10 is already ancient history in most places, .50 and
higher is on the way.

For an 8 kW system at $45k installed, financing cost is about
$300/month and your avoided cost for a net metering hookup (you
wouldn't consider it if net metering wasn't available in your area) is
about 8 kW * 5 hours/day * 30 day/month * $.15 /KWH = $180/month saved
on your electricity bill right now if you live in sunny southern
California for example.

[snip]

Wonder why it is that gasoline and electricity prices are highest in
California?

Fortunately most of us haven't been Californicated ;-)

I paid 9.2¢/KWH this past month (including excessive taxation).

Unfortunately it was for 6821 KWH :-(

...Jim Thompson

 

[Robert Baer]

AFAIK, it starts with white sand --

[snip]

Naaah! It comes from outer space and is brought here by alien space
travelers ;-)

...Jim Thompson

You say that it is their....*poop* ??

 

[Jim Thompson]

But, I have heard that the silicon in chips and stuff doesn't come from
sand - I wonder where they actually get it? Silicon ore?

AFAIK, it starts with white sand --

[snip]

Naaah! It comes from outer space and is brought here by alien space
travelers ;-)

...Jim Thompson

You say that it is their....*poop* ??

Yep ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Chris Jones]

Tim Williams wrote:

[snip]

Speaking of zone refining, you can also start with only somewhat pure
silicon and draw a melt zone across it (with fire or resistance or
induction
heating). I don't know how they do that in a band, through the entire
thickness of a rod, without it falling, or if they just heat up a section
so
impurities *diffuse* along, rather than actual melting. It might be they
fit the silicon inside a fused quartz tube, then remove it with
hydrofluoric acid to get bare silicon.

Tim

I think I read somewhere that they pass direct current axially from one end
of the rod to the other end so that the current passes from the solid rod
through the liquid section and then back into the other solid section of
the rod. Because of the difference between the solid and liquid silicon,
the Peltier effect causes the solid-to-liquid boundary at one side of the
molten zone to be heated and the other boundary to be cooled, thus moving
the molten section along the rod.

Chris

 

[Jim Thompson]

Tim Williams wrote:

[snip]

Speaking of zone refining, you can also start with only somewhat pure
silicon and draw a melt zone across it (with fire or resistance or
induction
heating). I don't know how they do that in a band,

RF heating.

They move the "zone" from one end to the other, "sweeping" the
impurities to one end, where they are sawed off.

I think I read somewhere that they pass direct current axially from one end
of the rod to the other end so that the current passes from the solid rod
through the liquid section and then back into the other solid section of
the rod. Because of the difference between the solid and liquid silicon,
the Peltier effect causes the solid-to-liquid boundary at one side of the
molten zone to be heated and the other boundary to be cooled, thus moving
the molten section along the rod.

Chris

I haven't heard of that one, though I'm certainly no expert anymore on
silicon refining.

...Jim Thompson

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Net metering is a subsidy and a hideous tax on other users.

Not always. In some cases, the net metered rate (essentially the same as
the residential rate) is lower than the utilities avoided cost. If this
is true, paying the net rate makes a lot of sense for a utility.

Simply stealing electricity from your neighbor makes more economic sense.

Further, a typical domestic synchronous inverter when fully and properly
amortized today requires more than 100 percent of the electricity sent
through it to pay for itself.

Proof of all this is very simple: Not one power utility anyplace
anywhere is routinely using conventional silicon pv for cost competitive
electrical generation.

Which is all the more reason that utilities should be grinning from ear
to ear whenever some moron invests in such a system and then only
accepts net rates in return.

Many utilities have high capital costs, particularly in places that have
hydro power (essentially zero fuel cost) or thermal plants used for
peaking (gotta keep paying the bond whether the turbines are spinning or
not). The ability to get a private producer to pick up the investment
risk in return for a payment per delivered kWh is worth quite a bit to a
utility.

If the utility power mix includes both high priced peaking thermal
sources (gas turbines, for example) plus cheaper base load (hydro or
coal), the spot market price can be many times the net metering rate.
Enron figured this one out in California.

The reason is that conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and
never will be renewable or sustainable. The latest of CIGS technology
MAY get us as much as one third of the way towards renewability and
sustainability.

And those utilities with solar array research facilities will not tell
you their avoided cost equivalence because it is ludicrously noncompetitive.

They will tell the state utilities commission, if they expect to include
its cost in their rate base.

 

[joseph2k]

Tim Williams wrote:

[snip]

Speaking of zone refining, you can also start with only somewhat pure
silicon and draw a melt zone across it (with fire or resistance or
induction
heating). I don't know how they do that in a band,

RF heating.

They move the "zone" from one end to the other, "sweeping" the
impurities to one end, where they are sawed off.

I think I read somewhere that they pass direct current axially from one end
of the rod to the other end so that the current passes from the solid rod
through the liquid section and then back into the other solid section of
the rod. Because of the difference between the solid and liquid silicon,
the Peltier effect causes the solid-to-liquid boundary at one side of the
molten zone to be heated and the other boundary to be cooled, thus moving
the molten section along the rod.

Chris

I haven't heard of that one, though I'm certainly no expert anymore on
silicon refining.

...Jim Thompson

Not that i would call myself an expert, more of a casual historian really,
(molten) zone refining was primarily used on Germanium {GE Transistor
Manual, 7th edition}. Silicon refining has primarily been done with
liquid / vapor phase change on Silane SiH(4) and or Silicon tetrachloride
SiCl(4). Typical semiconductor industry Silicon purities are better than
0.999999999 (9 nines) today.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

[snip]

Conventional silicon pv never was, is not now, and never will be capable
of ever becoming a renewabls and sustainable energy source.

Until you redo that calculation at a future power price of about
$.50/KWH ... $.10 is already ancient history in most places, .50 and
higher is on the way.

For an 8 kW system at $45k installed, financing cost is about
$300/month and your avoided cost for a net metering hookup (you
wouldn't consider it if net metering wasn't available in your area) is
about 8 kW * 5 hours/day * 30 day/month * $.15 /KWH = $180/month saved
on your electricity bill right now if you live in sunny southern
California for example.

[snip]

Wonder why it is that gasoline and electricity prices are highest in
California?

Fortunately most of us haven't been Californicated ;-)

I paid 9.2¢/KWH this past month (including excessive taxation).

Unfortunately it was for 6821 KWH :-(

Jim Thompson

My last bill was 4.9 cents/KWH & 4.979 cents/KWH fuel charge (9.879
cents/KWH) for 883 KWH.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida