Decline of E+WW

[Kryten]

Yeah, it comes off as maniacal rantings of a lunatic.

And just how _do_ we spot the difference between you and a lunatic?

I'm here to enjoy a spot of loonie baiting.

So what? I'm a scientist, after all - that means one who endeavours to
find
answers, no?

No you're not.

Science is not just the search for answers, it is also the way you find
them.

You hypothesise a description of how part of the universe behaves,
you devise experiments, you observe, and see if the results match those
predicted.
these experiments must be repeatable by others, and get the same results.

Just because you say you feel a divine presence in your butt,
doesn't mean there is one.

Paranoid schizos are damn sure people are out to get them,
but that doesn't make it true.

Let's face it, if you are experience strange feelings that most people
don't,
then what is more likely

(a) omnipotent supernatural being

or

(b) some form of brain disorder


Hmm, the more likely you are to choose (a),
then the more likely you are to have (b).

And if the existing tools can't reach the object of your
investigation, you have to invent new tools, right?

I have no desire to invent a botto-stim-recorder for you.

Nor insert it for that matter.

And is it not true that a declaration of
"It couldn't possibly be" is about the most
blockheaded fundie-level faith, that's actually contrary to the spirit of
science itself?

No, some things can't possibly be, like a statement being true and false at
the same time.

It just that a supernatural being stimulating your bottom
seems _incredibly_ unlikely in the extreme.

Or, more importantly, who told _you_ that what they told you about
the way reality works is all there is to the way reality works?

Nobody insinuated that at all.

Science has never said "that's all there is".
It is a growing body of knowledge growing all the time.

Are you having an electronics crisis,
No.

and so don't want to hear irrelevant
suggestions about "spirit"?

That's just it. They are irrelevant.

Well, show me the experiment that says it's not!

I'd want a damn sight more plausible proposal before experimenting with
human beings.

Anyway, it is your hypothesis, you are the one who has to prove it is so.



For example you could hypothesise that the universe is the dream of a giant
sunflower
(named Dinsdale) orbiting Pluto.
Who just happens to be invisible and undetectable by scientific instruments
and omnipotent yet never bothers to do anything that would prove his
existence.

It is not our job to prove the highly implausible Dinsdale _isn't_ there,
but yours to prove that he is.


And if a mere sunflower is laughably implausible,
how much more so is an omnipotent superbeing?

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

I know you cannot read anything I've said with understanding or care.
That's fine. I don't expect you to. Just keep ranting and,
occasionally, I will be bothered to chip in and point out the lesson of
the day from it.

I rather *like* having you around, Rich. Really, I do.

<sarcasm>
Oh, gee, thanks so much for your gracious magnanimity.
</sarcasm>

If you're not interested in visiting a higher dimensionality, and learning
the answer to pain and suffering, ending said pain and suffering, and
introducing eternal life to manifestation, then fine. Go ahead and do the
same crap everybody else has done for thousands, maybe millions, of years.
Like I said to Kevin, it's no skin off my nose.

It's an experiment, that "could" open the door to a greater vision of
reality itself.

Or not.

Bottom line, whatever you decide to do, do it because that is what you
feel like doing.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

And just how _do_ we spot the difference between you and a lunatic?

By feeling into the essence of the information presented.

I'm here to enjoy a spot of loonie baiting.

Rotsa Ruck!

No you're not.

Science is not just the search for answers, it is also the way you find
them.

You hypothesise a description of how part of the universe behaves,
you devise experiments, you observe, and see if the results match those
predicted.
these experiments must be repeatable by others, and get the same results.

Well, I _have_ done the experiments that have been devised for my
observing, and have found that the results do, in fact, match those
predicted. But the instrument with which these experiments are performed
is the investigator's own body. People have an imprint of aversion to
knowing one's own body, because, for example, it's icky. This is one of
the things that needs to be overcome, and it is also direct evidence of
prejudice on the part of those who adamantly refuse to even contemplate
that there could be a higher dimensionality that could actually be
accessible to mere humans.

Just because you say you feel a divine presence in your butt, doesn't
mean there is one.

Oh, this is where you are in error. If it's in mine, it _must_ be in
everybody else's, because I don't have a different set of organs from
everyone else. I have seven chakras, and I know I have them. So do you.
Continuing to refuse to even admit that you have chakras, just because you
don't yet know what they are, is folly.

But that's OK. Like I said, if you're satisfied to just go through life
putting one foot in front of the other until you get old, wear out, and
die forever, then fine. Do the same thing everybody else has done since
the beginning of time.

I'm trying something different, that I believe has a greater probablity of
eventually leading to something significant than just doing the same old
shit. If you're not interested in investigating a multidimensional
playground with infinite possiblilties, then fine. Don't read my lunatical
rantings. Or read them and laugh up your sleeve. Or, bottom line, as I
said to Kevin and Jonathan, do whatever you feel like doing.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

<snip>
Bottom line, whatever you decide to do, do it because that is what you
feel like doing.

Whatever gave you the thought that I wasn't?

Jon

 

[mc]

You hypothesise a description of how part of the universe behaves,
you devise experiments, you observe, and see if the results match those
predicted.
these experiments must be repeatable by others, and get the same results.

Is astronomy a science, then? No experiments.

Is all knowledge acquired through the scientific method? Mathematics, for
instance, or knowledge of scientific method itself?

 

[Kryten]

I rather *like* having you around, Rich. Really, I do.

I bloody don't.

If you're not interested in visiting a higher dimensionality, and learning
the answer to pain and suffering, ending said pain and suffering, and
introducing eternal life to manifestation, then fine.

Yes, we electronic engineers are just a bunch of ingrates who don't can't
tell the words of a spiritual genius from those of a mental case. We who
dismiss your wonderfully rational arguments as "bollocks" or "bullshit".

Please treat us with the disdain we so richly deserve, oh great guru, and
seek out souls more worthy of your multidimensional wisdom, in some other
dimension.

Please preach to the worthy souls at your local hospital, I am sure the
doctors there will be most interested in your views. If you could just post
your home address on this newsgroup then I'm sure they will pop round for a
cosy chat in no time.

Like I said to Kevin, it's no skin off my nose.

Well why waste your time here then?
Even if you have discovered eternal life.

It's an experiment, that "could" open the door to a greater vision of
reality itself.

We'll pass thanks. Come back in 200 years and people might believe about
your eternal life thing.

Personally if you have found eternal life then I don't think I want to spend
eternity listening to cross posted crap.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

I bloody don't.

Oh. Sorry USENET doesn't meet with your expectations.

Yes, we electronic engineers are just a bunch of ingrates who don't can't
tell the words of a spiritual genius from those of a mental case. We who
dismiss your wonderfully rational arguments as "bollocks" or "bullshit".

Yes. Contempt prior to investigation. I learned about this in AA. ;-)

Please treat us with the disdain we so richly deserve, oh great guru, and
seek out souls more worthy of your multidimensional wisdom, in some other
dimension.

OK. ;^j

Please preach to the worthy souls at your local hospital, I am sure the
doctors there will be most interested in your views. If you could just post
your home address on this newsgroup then I'm sure they will pop round for a
cosy chat in no time.

12143 1/3 Rivera Rd.
Whittier, CA 90606

;^j

As if you had the balls to take any action!
(and actually, the doctors are even more adamantly against any other
possibilities than you are - when people learn to heal their own selves,
the doctors are out of a job.)

nose.

Well why waste your time here then?
Even if you have discovered eternal life.

Because it's lonely out here.

We'll pass thanks. Come back in 200 years and people might believe about
your eternal life thing.

OK. See ya then!

Personally if you have found eternal life then I don't think I want to spend
eternity listening to cross posted crap.

OK. Does your newsreader have a "block sender" setting?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Kryten]

People have an imprint of aversion to
knowing one's own body, because, for example, it's icky.

If that were true people would not masturbate.
Or copulate. As often as they can.

My body isn't icky at all.

Oh, this is where you are in error. If it's in mine, it _must_ be in
everybody else's, because I don't have a different set of organs from
everyone else.

Nope, a man's bottom is his own private kingdom.

And if I were the almighty, I'd find somewhere a bit nicer to manifest
myself.


Sounds like there is some weird shit going on in your brain and arse.

Are you sure it ain't (a) tapeworms, (b) lice in your rectal pubes or (c)
suppressed memories of being buggered by some religious figure.

I have seven chakras, and I know I have them.

You think you have them, that don't mean they are real.

But that's OK. Like I said, if you're satisfied to just go through life

yeah, yadda yadda yadda...

Can we just get through our short lives playing with electronics without you
babbling on.

I'm trying something different, that I believe has a greater probability
of
eventually leading to something significant than just doing the same old
shit.

Great, hope it works out for you.

Get back to us when you are 200 years old and are still alive.

If you're not interested in investigating a multidimensional
playground with infinite possibilities, then fine.

No, we're not. that's why we are in sci.electronics.design
and not alt.mystical.loonie.twat.ranting

You'd think someone of your multidimensional consciousness should be able to
post in an appropriate newsgroup eh?

my lunatical rantings.

You've noticed too eh? That's the first step on the road to recovery.

Please open your mind to the fact that the simple explanation (you are a
lunatic) may in fact be the correct one? Or at least get a doctor to give
you a certificate of non-lunacy.

Or read them and laugh up your sleeve.

I'd rather not read them at all thanks.

I only reply to your posts in the vain hope that your brain might cohere in
tour dimensions long enough to think "Hmm, everybody tells me I am a nutter,
maybe I should get my mind to a service station".

Or, bottom line, as I
said to Kevin and Jonathan, do whatever you feel like doing.

I feel like reading about electronics.

Not your anal deities.

 

[Kryten]

Yes. Contempt prior to investigation. I learned about this in AA. ;-)

You should have quit drinking sooner.

We assign contempt as per reality suggests.
If you come home to a house smelling of dope and your kids tell you all the
chocolates were eaten by the invisible magic pixies who live in the airing
cupboard, then those of us with working brains would assign that an
appropriate amount of contempt. Or would you go check out the airing
cupboard and say "why yes, they are invisible aren't they?"

12143 1/3 Rivera Rd.
Whittier, CA 90606

Thanks, I hope the authorites note it down.

Just out of curiosity, it wasn't built on an ancient Indian burial ground
with serious radon emissions from a crashed alien ship used for dumping
genetic waste? One Stephen King idea isn't quite enough to explain your
mind...

Could some kind Californian please pass on transcripts of this newsgroups to
the right people?

As if you had the balls to take any action!

Well I certainly don't solicit addresses for the purposes of popping round
for a punch up if that is what you mean.

Nor would I want to visit!

I'm just relieved you are very far away.

(and actually, the doctors are even more adamantly against any other
possibilities than you are - when people learn to heal their own selves,
the doctors are out of a job.)

Well, no, hence the expression "the lunatics have taken over the asylum"
is used to describe a very bad situation indeed.

Because it's lonely out here.

You're viewed as a nutter, and lonely.

Do you spot the causal link correlation factor?

Incidentally if you do find eternal life, you should find something to
occupy yourself - forever.

Sitting in your room with a computer typing to people whose only response is
to call you a ranting loonie doesn't count. Are you really are that fricking
lonely?

OK. See ya then!

No you won't.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

If you're not interested in visiting a higher dimensionality,

I'm sure you've been visiting such places, Rich. You are always welcome to tell
us about it.

and learning the answer to pain and suffering, ending said pain and suffering,

Use what works for pain and suffering, Rich. I'd have to be pretty mean
spirited to tell you otherwise.

and introducing eternal life to manifestation,

Uh... sure. Whatever you say, Rich.

then fine. Go ahead and do the
same crap everybody else has done for thousands, maybe millions, of years.

.... that is what you are doing, Rich. I'm not.

It is truly ironic that you should try to suggest that your thinking style is
anything new to humanity. In actual fact, magical thinking like yours is as
ancient as any history we have of humans. In contrast, science thinking is
difficult, unnatural and quite rare on the whole. What you are talking about
may have it's own character to it, but it is hardly anything different from what
has gone before as superstitious behavior in humans since before we have any
history of it.

You dispel science out of hand, claiming you have gone beyond it's reach and
ken. But this is nothing more than your conceit and narcissism.

Jon

 

[Pig Bladder]

You should have quit drinking sooner.

Nice of you to notice. Awfully kind of you to offer your suggestions on
how to operate my life to your personal spec.

We assign contempt as per reality suggests.

And this reality is....?

If you come home to a house smelling of dope and your kids tell you all the
chocolates were eaten by the invisible magic pixies who live in the airing
cupboard, then those of us with working brains would assign that an
appropriate amount of contempt. Or would you go check out the airing
cupboard and say "why yes, they are invisible aren't they?"

Which kids? I'm smarter than you - I haven't caused any screaming poop
machines, so I have no one to blame for my foolishness. ;-)

Thanks, I hope the authorites note it down.

Ah. Authority addiction. I guess there's no reason to continue to try to
insert abstract thoughts into this particular concrete head.

Thanks!

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

It is truly ironic that you should try to suggest that your thinking
style is anything new to humanity. In actual fact, magical thinking
like yours is as ancient as any history we have of humans. In contrast,
science thinking is difficult, unnatural and quite rare on the whole.
What you are talking about may have it's own character to it, but it is
hardly anything different from what has gone before as superstitious
behavior in humans since before we have any history of it.

Well, the point is, this new information that's just been "discovered" is
actually new.

You dispel science out of hand, claiming you have gone beyond it's reach
and ken. But this is nothing more than your conceit and narcissism.

Pfaugh! Science is cool, as far as it goes. It's unscientific to make
blanket statements that I'm full of shit, just because you're not yet
aware of your own Will Essence.

I _have_ done the experiment. I've done a _lot_ of experiments. And I'm
reaching a conclusion that there's a communications channel that nobody,
or very few people, are aware of, and there's a perfectly logical reason
for their unawareness, and that's all explained, and each of the
assertions that I've tested experientially has proved out.

I don't know how to build machines to communicate for you, and I haven't
learned to do any tricks yet, so I'll quit pressuring you and everybody to
read the page and test the assertions. I know it's true, I know it works,
and the only way for anyone else to find out is to learn to feel their own
will. If you don't want to, then OK. It's not my call anyway.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

Well, the point is, this new information that's just been "discovered" is
actually new.

Sure it is. That's what necromancers said, what tea leaf readers said, what
crystal therapists say. So?

Provide affirming evidence that is sufficient for the extraordinary nature of
the claims. Or be ignored.

Pfaugh! Science is cool, as far as it goes. It's unscientific to make
blanket statements that I'm full of shit, just because you're not yet
aware of your own Will Essence.

I am not speaking from a science point of view when I say that. I'm speaking to
you as a person. You are full of shit, Rich. That's clear. And this isn't
science speaking, it's me.

(If you ever bothered to say something that could be falsified, I suppose, and
was objective enough that two different people might come to the same deductions
given the same conditions to analyze -- perhaps then a scientific opinion might
be formed about it.)

I _have_ done the experiment. I've done a _lot_ of experiments. And I'm
reaching a conclusion that there's a communications channel that nobody,
or very few people, are aware of, and there's a perfectly logical reason
for their unawareness, and that's all explained, and each of the
assertions that I've tested experientially has proved out.

Great. And your internal state of mind is yours to claim. As I've said before
and again, many times. You have every right to say anything you want about your
internal state. No one can challenge you, you own it. But don't imagine that
anyone should believe it is about anything else, unless there is affirming
evidence that is consistent and sufficient, given the extraordinary nature of
your internal belief.

I can't make it any simpler than that.

I don't know how to build machines to communicate for you, and I haven't
learned to do any tricks yet, so I'll quit pressuring you and everybody to
read the page and test the assertions. I know it's true, I know it works,
and the only way for anyone else to find out is to learn to feel their own
will. If you don't want to, then OK. It's not my call anyway.

Like I said, you are perfectly able to discuss your own internal state. And
I'll accept whatever you say on that score, without quibble. If it reduces your
pain, then it reduces your pain. If your mind flies through space like a
speeding photon, then your mind flies through space like a speeding photon.

And that's all the further it goes with me.

The shit I'm saying you are full of, takes place when you start making more of
all that. That's where the shit begins, Rich.

Jon

 

[Wim Ton]

There are computer game reviews and gadget advertorials in the Feb 2005
Electronics & Wireless World. Is this finally the end?

I totally agree. It looked remarkable like the (free)
Electronics Weekly.

The long 4 part series about high end amplifiers was so badly written that I
did not bother to read most of it. And as it was mostly simulated, I have
my doubts about the validity (See Robert Pease's articles about his run-ins
with SPICE and the article that E&WW ran on simulators..)
Not to mention the "magnetic universe"article.
I also will not renew my subscription if things do not improve.
Wim

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

Sure it is. That's what necromancers said, what tea leaf readers said, what
crystal therapists say. So?

Provide affirming evidence that is sufficient for the extraordinary nature of
the claims. Or be ignored.

OK.

I can't express the devastation I feel at your willful ignorance.
</sarcasm>

;^j
Rich

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

OK.

I can't express the devastation I feel at your willful ignorance.

I don't mind being ignorant about your state of mind, Rich. Really, don't worry
yourself. I'll survive just fine.

And like I said, you can discuss your own internal state of mind and I won't
argue. But that's all the further it goes.

Jon

 

[Kryten]

Nice of you to notice. Awfully kind of you to offer your suggestions on
how to operate my life to your personal spec.

That suggestion wasn't aimed at you.
It was Rich that said he had been to AA.
I had no idea you were/are an AA attendee.

And this reality is....?

The one I observe around me.
If Rich is in an alternative reality he is welcome to it.

Which kids?

It was a hypothetical scenario.
We were all screaming poo factories once.

I'm smarter than you

Your opinion is entirely yours.

I haven't caused any screaming poop machines,

Thank you, on so many levels.

so I have no one to blame for my foolishness. ;-)

Indeed, glad to know you accept responsibility.

Ah. Authority addiction. I guess there's no reason to continue to try to
insert abstract thoughts into this particular concrete head.

I'm not addicted to it at all, in fact I often question it.

I'm just hoping that whoever the American public have looking after their
mental well being do actually make a polite visit to Rich to see if he is
alright.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Is astronomy a science, then? No experiments.

Experments are done in astromany, but moving stars is just a tad
difficult

For example, the deflection of light by the gravity of the sun is an
experiment that one can measure. It don't matter much that we don't give
the sun a shove. There is a prediction that can be made based on theory,
with the measurement either agreeing or disagreeing with that
prediction.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[John Woodgate]

Is astronomy a science, then?
Yes.

No experiments.

The experiments are going on all the time. It's just that we didn't set
them up.

Is all knowledge acquired through the scientific method?
No.

Mathematics, for
instance, or knowledge of scientific method itself?

Mathematics isn't limited to our Universe. The original statement about
*science* needs some modification to apply to mathematics. The
modifications involve mathematical terms which I don't know enough
about. But try this rough text:

You hypothesise a description of how some 'body of logic' behaves,
you draw conclusions, you test those conclusions for consistency and
contradictions, and see if the results match those predicted. These
tests must be repeatable by others, and get the same results.

For example, Euclid produced five postulates. They result in a 'body of
logic' - plane geometry - that is everywhere consistent and nowhere
contradictory.

Analogous but slightly different postulates result in spherical geometry
and pseudo-spherical geometry. There is even an SF novel about the
latter - Inverted World, by Christopher Priest. Naturally, I have it in
my bookshelf upside down. (;-)

 

[Kryten]

Is astronomy a science, then?
Yes.

No experiments.

No, NASA launches many experiments for example.

I'm reminded of an ancient philosopher who argued that we could learn
nothing from the stars because they were so far away and all we had was the
light.

We now know a great deal of information can be extracted from observing the
light.
The red shift indicates the universe is expanding, and the Hubble constant
indicates the universe had a moment of creation and roughly when the event
happened.

It is true we can't create stars by experiment, but one could reasonably
argue that building instruments to collect observations and using them
counts as experiment.

Is all knowledge acquired through the scientific method?

No, some can be acquired through reason and logic.
e.g. "I think therefore I am".

Logic is used to see if statements are self consistent.

Mathematics, for instance, or knowledge of scientific method itself?

But you still have to suggest a hypothesis in the first place then see if it
actually holds true.
You have to expose it to being proved or disproved.

At on time it was accepted knowledge that menstrual blood would corrode an
iron knife rapidly.
One philosopher made the step of obtaining some to check it out.

The point is that it is easy to say something is so, but one should also
check that reality is consistent with your statements.