clueless politicians

[Moosh:]]

If I remember correctly, Ford Motor had to recall all their Mercurys
because the fish content was too high.

Yeah, the handling was terrible beacuse of all the weight from the
rust proofing.

 

[Moosh:]]

And I respond: List all the times you beat your wife, and who beat her.

Never. Are you saying US has NEVER had any pollution?

Look Moosh, all countries in the world have their environmental problems.

I agree. So what. That's NOT the point I was responding to.

Those problems are caused by the voters in free countries, and the
government in totalitarian systems.

But the original point I was responding to said that all evil came
from govt. I asked to mention which pollution of the environment in US
was caused by govt. Nothing to do with pollution problems anywhere
else in the world.

 

[Moosh:]]

Sure it is.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

hey what about the Rhine? and the Thames?

What about them? Is this relevant?

Do you really think it is helpful to comment "Sure it is" at the top
and cut out all reference to "it"?

Why is the Rhine and the Thames relevant to the cause of whatever
pollution there is in the US? The mind boggles.

 

[Moosh:]]

This is a great example of a well-intentioned government making things
worse.

What's MTBE? What is it added for? What is the comparison with the
alternative

Like putting lipstick on a pig. You still have an oinker.

But you still believe what you are told and that USSR was socialism.
You really do have a gullibility problem.

I can just see a car designed by the government. You would have to fill out
20 forms and insert them in a slot before the car would start.

But you would only require one fifth of the fuel per annum, and the
thing would last 50 years.

So is burning rubber in your hot rod down on the promenade?
What about the freedom to take their recreational drug of choice?
Other than alcohol, nicotine, or caffeine.

Mmm...we could always put on our coon skin caps and hike out across the
country.

Would do you a power of good, Son.

Oh boy...I can't even imagine that, but it sounds very dull.

Yep. none of those wonderful redneck recreations with minorities and
pigs

Know what? Guys like Moosh have good intentions too. Let them freeze or pay
$10 for a gallon of gas, and they would BEG the government to permit
drilling in ANWAR!

What's ANWAR? Why should I freeze?

 

[Moosh:]]

Try acid rain, the great lakes, city smog, polluted groundwater, toxic
dumps, Gulf of Mexico, and these are just a few off the top of the
head of a foreigner.

Where have you been? The Great Lakes are now cleaner than most European and
Asian drinking water.

Not the point.
At one time, you couldn't eat the fish.
Was this government pollution?

If that's not the point, then WHAT IS THE POINT? The Great Lakes were
cleaned up by the same people who polluted them. What exactly is
"government pollution"?

Try to read the thread before you jump in Don. It helps to understand.
Who made them clean up?

I don't know of any U.S. groundwater where diazinon is a problem.

Then I suggest you open your eyes.

Here in
California, the biggest groundwater problem is MTBE which was mandated by
the government as a gasoline additive.

And the alternative?

Where did you get the idea that our sewers are polluted with industrial
waste?

It's a well known fact. It's the reason that you can't use most of it
on your gardens.

Get real Moosh. You don't know what you're talking about.

So why was Milorganite banned on food crops? Industrial heavy metal
pollution, perhaps? Organic growers ban sewage. Why?

Try as
you might, the failed system of socialism just can't be made to look good.

I'm not advocating a socialist system. You seem to have the vivid
imagination about what I advocate. I have always advocated a mixed
economy. You have no viable examples of extremes of either sort.
I don't know what you imagined has failed.

Why don't you tell us what is the point, Moosh?

Try reading the thread. I asked to list the pollution in USA and say
who caused it. I got inane responses that the Rhine and the Thames
were more polluted -- and that the USA had NO pollution. Sheesh, talk
about blind paranoia.

...and your point is?

Try reading.

Horses?

City smog?

Thank God for that! I suppose if you had your 'druthers, all our cars WOULD
be government issued.

No, but car manufacturers might be improved with a bit of government
competition. You know, small plastic hybrid diesels that last for 50
years and cost $5000? Private car manufacturers are not doing a very
good job for the world AFAICS.

People like the freedom of having a car to go where they please. This IS a
good thing!

Yep. Good to hoon about the place in 3 ton SUVs. If you say so.
Greenies disagree with you.

Oh, you would like us to believe that only bad things come from big,
successful corporations.

No. Can you not read simple English?
What pollution was caused by govt, as inferred by the above quote that
I was responding to?

People don't buy the products and services of
successful corporations just to spend money.

No, it is often just rampant consumerism. Many do, in fact spend for
spending's sake.

They buy the products and
services because they WANT them.

And why do they think they want them?

Maybe it's not what Moosh wants for them,
but it IS what they want for themselves.

Without any brainwashing and manipulation by the manufacturers?
SUVs are a good thing in your estimation?

A government of, by and for Moosh
is NOT what the people want.

Well not in the USA, but I notice that philosophies very close to mine
are embraced by many other countries. Just ask yourself, is your
(Western) way of life sustainable for just the US?Or even for the rest
of the world? I thought you were for reduction in profligate waste of
energy.
Not prepared to do anything about it? Let the market solve the
problem? Have I got news for you? Do you know what bacteria do in a
petri dish?

 

[Tony Wesley]

Probably true about coal and cars being the biggest pollution sources [snip]

Let us discuss fossil fueled powered cars/trucks/transportation. What was
the options? Horse power? Yuck again. So go ahead and slam fossil fuels,
as you set behind your coal powered computer, in your coal powered AC home,
with your coal powered lights, ect, ect.... while your fossil fuel carriage
sets in your garage.

Since you agree with the only point I made, as your first sentence indicates,
and since I didn't "slam" fossil fuels, I can only assume that your editorial
was written as some type of vent for some issue you're having.

 

[Moosh:]]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:33:03 -0400, "Tony Wesley"
[snip]

If you're comparing N.A. to Europe and Asia, and you bring up the Great Lakes,
you're comparing them to what? Lake Baikal?

I'm not comparing them to anything. Where did that idea spring from?
I merely asked who caused all the pollution problems in America. I was
responded to with "There aren't any" or words to that effect.

You were responded to by Bob Adkins with
"Our country is clean compared to Europe and Asia."

To which you replied
"None so blind as those who won't see."

In the context of my asking who caused the pollution (of whatever
comparative extent) in the USA.

But enough of that. It twists away from your point. I'll
answer your question.

Who caused all the pollution problems in America? All of the
Americans, myself included. I believe the worst two are coal and
cars.

Thank you. Govt wasn't the culprit, which was the point I was trying
to make.

 

[Moosh:]]

Sounds like riding a Vespa scooter while wearing Sony Walkman
earphones!

That's one way, but the other is a small, aerodynamic, light car with
an efficient small diesel (perhaps hybrid electric transmission, or
with computer controlled electric valve timing, and ceramic hot
components). The body could be a modern, strong, light plastic with an
aerodynamic underneath, (not just the topside that can be seen.)
The wheels and tyres can be thin, high-pressure, low rolling resitance
on light alloy rims. The fashion for wide tyres is nonsense. Look at
French small cars. Wide tyres have less pressure on the road and more
likely to slide over the top of loose surfaces (toboggan)

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

You might want to remember that the devil is (in one context any way) the
prosecuting attorney. Fortunately for us, the judge is a family friend.

Any way, I do and have always believed that truth stands up to strong
examination. You can believe you hold truth in your hands, yet understand it
poorly, at least in some important ways. So my task is to question our
easily held beliefs, our comfortable truths, and force us to a better grasp
of the reality.

With few exceptions, you may say anything that I believe true, and I can and
will still come up with the "but". It has also been said that I just like to
argue. I would like to believe I do have a more important agenda though.

 

[Moosh:]]

Not at all - that's just money. Our greatest enemies are those who try to
kill us. Or do you consider "riches" to be more valuable than human life?

But can't you see that your quest for riches has brought this killing
upon you?

 

[Moosh:]]

...

As my daughter observed, there are much worse things that can be done to you
than to just kill you. Besides, if one can take your riches, for which you
must sacrifice so much of your life, they are taking your life, by little
bits and pieces.

That's a sad commentary. Your riches are your life. Really?

 

[Moosh:]]

It is fairly pricey. But then again, so is gasoline for your car for
the next 20 years.

Well my fuel costs for the next twenty years (should I need it) will
be roughly $5000 Australian dollars, say $3000 US dollars. My "car" is
an Asea Brown Boveri light rail set

No. The apparatus to produce NaH is at your house. The NaH is in your
can or is in the tank of your car. It produces hydrogen on demand.
Each gallon of NaH powder produces 1300 gallons of hydrogen gas when
reacted with the exhaust water from the hydrogen engine.

So this broken down car needs a can of Na H to be obtained from your
house. HOW many miles away?

On your house. See above.

But I can hitch hike to the nearest gas station for a can of gas for
my stranded vehicle. Can I do this for Na H?
I suppose I can. How heavy will 50 miles worth be?

Gasoline is produced from oil which is nonrenewable.

Not necessarily. Like hydrogen is not necessarily made from fossil
fuel.

NaH powder can be produced from NaOH using sunshine energy.

As can synthetic oil fuels.

It is
renewable and when the NaH releases hydrogen onboard the vehicle, it
doesn't produce any emissions.

Emissions are not as important as carbon neutrality.

Not even water vapor.

Zero emissions. As in "0"

Not much of a virtue compared to a diesel using vegeoil.

Your can of gasoline is going to produce lots more emissions than
zero.

So long as it's carbon neutral synthetic gasoline (oil) it is of
little import.

 

[Moosh:]]

you mean my hydro powered computer, in my hydro powered AC home,
with my hydro powered lights, etc, etc.... while my vegetable oil fueled
carriage
sets in my garage.

No, the other 6,000,000,000 people

 

[Don W.]

History of the present combatants are surely the only relevant
history. Why do you mention a bunch of myths and odd occurrences 3000
years ago? Nothing more recent in your history?

Well please explain what 3000 year old myths and stories have to do
with Islam, Judaism and Christianity living together peacefully.

What evidence have you to discount my assertion that the present
combatants can and have lived peacefully side by side, and it wasn't
until Western interference that all this hatred and turmoil has
occurred. And 3000 year old myths don't count.

The present day conflict has virtually nothing to do with oil and everything
to do with 'myths' as old as 3000 years.

One religion believes they are God's chosen people and that 'their' plot of
land was promised to them by God. Another believes theirs is the only true
religion and that governments should be clerical governments based on that
religion and that killing those who do not believe in that religion is a
good idea. This mix of zealots makes for some nasty fighting with or
without oil. Oil just provides the wealth for nastier weapons.

Don W.

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

....

But can't you see that your quest for riches has brought this killing
upon you?

This is close to one of several important factors. As I read it we are in
the cross hairs because
1. We oppose dictatorships, have no patience with abusive customs, and
believe Israel has a right to exist and are willing to support that right.
2. We have only short term narrow interests, even when it comes to investing
and reaping profits, and are too often willing to roll over to avoid
standing up for our own best interests, especially when those are long term.

Almost equally divided between being cursed because we will not accept evil
in others, and cursed because we tolerate evil far too much in ourselves and
in our neighbors.

With friends like us, who needs enemies?
(Also applies to most of our allies, near as I can tell.)

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

you mean my hydro powered computer, in my hydro powered AC home,
with my hydro powered lights, etc, etc.... while my vegetable oil fueled
carriage
sets in my garage.

'Twould be nice if Hydro power was still the major provider of
electricity, but even in Ontario, with Niagara, we use more coal power
than either Hydro or Nuke at the moment, as a significant portionnof
our nuke capacity is currently shut down.

 

[Scott A Crosby]

we make our own biodiesel for .70 / gallon, but not many can. I gave the
numbers earlier showing 11000 square miles of desert can provide enough
algae grown biodiesel for the entire usa transportation fuel needs.

Could you give me the message-ID or some keywords to search on for google?

11000 sq miles is about 7 million acres (about 1% of US cropland). To
supply 58 billion gallons of diesel (one years total use) means almost
8238 gallons/acre. Thats twelve times the production through palm
fronds. Also, this is counting diesel use. Gasoline use is above and
beyond this number.

Are you *sure* this is correct?

Scott

 

[Steve Spence]

fortunately for me, it's my one and only 100% source.

 

[Steve Spence]

Absolutely sure (so is the DOE, it's their number). and that's enough
biodiesel to replace gasoline usage as well as diesel. it's algae, remember.

from earlier post:

140.8 billion gallons of biodiesel or vegetable oil would replace all
petroleum used for transportation.

NREL's research showed that one quad (ten billion gallons) of biodiesel
could be produced from 200,000 hectares of desert land (200,000 hectares is
equivalent to 780 square miles). In the previous section, we found that to
replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need 140.8 billion
gallons of biodiesel, or roughly 14 quads. To produce that amount would
require a land mass of almost 11,000 square miles. To put that in
perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US
comprises 120,000 square miles. As can be seen in Figure 1 below, the Sonora
desert is located along the Pacific ocean, making it an ideal location for
algae farms. The arid climate of the desert is very supportive of algae
growth, and the nearby ocean could supply saltwater for the algae ponds.
Enough biodiesel to replace all petroleum transportation fuels could be
grown in 11,000 square miles, or roughly nine percent of the area of the
Sonora desert.
http://www.monkeymind.net/test/biodiesel/article_alge.html


--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

 

[Mike Wilcox]

Fred, are you just PLAYING devil's advocate or are you REALLY the devil's
advocate?

Don W.

Depends on what you consider riches or worthwhile


Mike Wilcox