clueless politicians

[Moosh:]]

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.

I'll second that! I'd prefer to have electric windows and door locks on
mine because they're a tremendous convenience and don't really take all that
much power (relative to traction).

Yes, I'd probably not object to these with my limited mobility
I was thinking more of paring down the luxuries to reduce the capital
outlay. I always admired the little Citroen 2 CV (deux cheveaux -- two
horse) with its folding windows, canvass seats and gearstick coming
out of the dash. Or was that the renault R4? I used to own an old
Peugeot 203 (~52) and it had some wonderful design features ahead of
its time. I drove across Australia in it with my new bride and all our
worldly possessions in a badly built trailer behind. Both wheels fell
off the bloody thing out in the middle of the desert, and I had to get
a passing Shell tanker driver to take the axle to the next town for
the blacksmith to weld and then return it two days later. He even
trusted me for the $10 if I recall.
Then a passing group of Commonwealth surveyors in large FWD
International (Harvester) vans took all our worldly possessions on to
the next big town (Kalgoorlie) where the police sergeant shipped them
to Perth for us. You wouldn't get this service these days.
But I digress...

 

[Steve Spence]

that situation would change (the surplus) if every vehicle ran on hydrogen
(or cng).

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
price
goes

by using natural gas (hydrogen) for transport, you are decreasing the supply
used for fertilizer and electric production. we typically don't currently
use natural gas for transportation.

Our dopey Western Australian Govt has a surplus of NG and so they are
trying to gain votes by paying $1,000,000 each for buses that use it.
They also have some hydrogen buses.

 

[Steve Spence]

hybrid gas vehicles are here today, hybrid diesels are on their way to a
showroom near you. they will have a/c and electric windows.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.

 

[Moosh:]]

that situation would change (the surplus) if every vehicle ran on hydrogen
(or cng).

I don't think they could imagine that. Many cars and all taxis use LPG
and get it tax free. They even offer a subsidy of $500 to convert your
car. I'll wager that when a certain percentage take it up, a tax
(probably federal) will be slapped on it.

 

[Moosh:]]

hybrid gas vehicles are here today, hybrid diesels are on their way to a
showroom near you. they will have a/c and electric windows.

What brand, and are they on the web? They will be cheap I hope.

 

[Moosh:]]

The Eric Swanson post you cited begins with "Lets begin by killing all those
subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Then, lets cut the military spending
to support all those governments we import oil from. And pull back the
troops from the Middle East and the South Pacific."

You see, some people would like to consider the cost of Mideast policy to be
an oil subsidy. My point is that this is preposterous because with or
without oil we will still have a Mideast policy and the violence and killing
is more likely to increase than decrease when the people of the Middle East
no longer have income from the sale of oil.

But they've only had oil for less than 100 years, in a history of
thousands of years.

Maybe you're right. I agree that government should stay out of energy
projects completely. If there is a net profit to be made on the investment,
then private enterprise will not hesitate to make the investment. Most of
the money flowing into alternative energy projects will never show a profit
and most are horrendous investments.

Only if you think that making a profit is the only worthwhile
objective. If you factor in public good, then maybe more would indeed
make a profit if that is what you must have.

 

[Moosh:]]

Clearly volume is not the sole determiner of manufacturing cost and
retail price, nor is that what I meant to imply. But the price of
hydrogen is only about a factor of five higher than that of gasoline,
according to Steve Spence's post, and that is the sort of margin that
often can be overcome by economies of scale (assuming starting
production is small enough, of course). I don't know enough about
hydrogen production to take a flyer on this myself, but I was hoping
somebody would be able to point me in the direction of some relevant
work.

You will be throwing half your electric energy away no matter how many
oceans you electrolyse.

 

[Moosh:]]

Rarely have I seen a situation so accurately summarized in so few words.

But the timescale is not mentioned. Still, broken eggs are very
difficult to repair. Even if you wash your hands and go home.

 

[Philip Edward Lewis]

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?

saturn is comming out with a dual energy SUV in 2005 i think
http://www.saturn.com/company/news_.../press_release.jsp?pressID=advance_vue_hbyrid

The hybrid, expected to deliver nearly 40-mpg city/highway composite
fuel economy. (from another release)

i'm debating getting an ion now and trading to a hybrid later or
trying to make "old blue" (95 saturn sl2) last. it's not getting
great mileage (22mpg average, though it got 33mpg on a mostly highway
trip recently) it does eat oil, however.

only thing i worry about battery systems is replacing the battery
pack.

Any other suggestions for meeting one (or both) of my two main goals:
1:haul lots of crap.
2:gets high fuel economy.

If 2 has a reasonable tow capacity, 1 can be met since i have a trailer.

i wish some of these auto web sights would get their act together and
let folks search on any specifications. grrr.

as an added requirement, i'm a big guy, and have a long torso. head/a**
room is essential.

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

Yes, the money from a giant, rich corporation can buy races. However, if the
purses were big enough to draw talented individuals into the competition,
Honda would get their asses handed to them. It would be accomplished on a
budget that's a fraction of Honda's too.

Bob <bobad at charter dot net>

Until they hit the railway tracks and broke their steering, Midnight
Sun from University of Waterloo was winning the Solar Challenge. That
dropped them to 5th. They are now back to 3rd or 4th at Albuquerque.
Yesterdays section was driven at the speed limit all the way. Finished
with a flat tire on the last turn.

see: http://midsun.uwaterloo.ca/www/

 

[ben williams]

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?

saturn is comming out with a dual energy SUV in 2005 i think
http://www.saturn.com/company/news_.../press_release.jsp?pressID=advance_vue_hbyrid

The hybrid, expected to deliver nearly 40-mpg city/highway composite
fuel economy. (from another release)

i'm debating getting an ion now and trading to a hybrid later or
trying to make "old blue" (95 saturn sl2) last. it's not getting
great mileage (22mpg average, though it got 33mpg on a mostly highway
trip recently) it does eat oil, however.

only thing i worry about battery systems is replacing the battery
pack.

Any other suggestions for meeting one (or both) of my two main goals:
1:haul lots of crap.
2:gets high fuel economy.

If 2 has a reasonable tow capacity, 1 can be met since i have a trailer.

i wish some of these auto web sights would get their act together and
let folks search on any specifications. grrr.

as an added requirement, i'm a big guy, and have a long torso. head/a**
room is essential.


--
be safe.
flip
Aus! Aus! Sie Dämonen der Dummheit!

Test drive a Ford escape and see if you fit it, then go to the web site and
view the info on the upcoming hybrid version. It's a smaller SUV, but had
good leg/head room (I'm 6-2, 34 inseam and it fits me well).
The 04's are earmarked for fleet use (to wring them out?) and should show
up in fall of this year. 05's will be for open sale and SHOULD have most of
the bugs out....
ben

 

[Moosh:]]

Are you sure of this, Fred? Care to place a $100.00 bet that I CAN
produce sodium from the electrolysis of a salt water solution?

Well tell us how. BTW, Fred said NaOH, not NaCl.

And

Even in the areas you mention, Fred, there is still a significant
amount of solar energy. Besides, we could locate large plants in the
desert to use solar heat to produce LOTS of NaH pellets from incoming
NaOH. This is a significant amount of stored energy which can be used
to provide hyrogen upon demand.

What are the transport costs for each MWh of energy transfer compared
with electric transmission, and gasoline transport?

 

[Moosh:]]

Moosh,

It depends on how much power the solar panels produce. If it is a 10
Kw solar array (normal size of house),

One hundred square metre collector? Sounds expensive.

you can produce about 3.3
pounds of NaH each hour from sodium hydroxide. (It takes around 3 KWH
to produce 1 pound of NaH from electrolysis of sodium hydroxide.

But how heavy is this apparatus? Remember we are carrying it down the
road in a can

Each 8 hour period while the sun is shining (you usually get about 8
good hours of sunshine each day), you can produce about 25 pounds of
NaH which will produce more than 400 cubic feet of hydrogen gas on
demand for the vehicle exactly WHEN the engine needs the hydrogen.

Sorry, is this collector on the car or the house? How much does it
cost?

Jed Checketts

From the looks of it, you will be eating your own words. Your
original statement, "you CAN'T CARRY a CAN of SUNLIGHT...." is
incorrect.

Not my words, but I agree with them.

Of course, a can of gasoline can be regarded as a "can of sunshine".

 

[Moosh:]]

Maybe you're right. I agree that government should stay out of energy
projects completely. If there is a net profit to be made on the investment,
then private enterprise will not hesitate to make the investment. Most of
the money flowing into alternative energy projects will never show a profit
and most are horrendous investments.

Only if you think that making a profit is the only worthwhile
objective. If you factor in public good, then maybe more would indeed
make a profit if that is what you must have.

It's not a matter of what I think or what you think -- it's what consumers
do with their money!

Well that depends a lot on the ethos of the population. Whether they
have had headlong consumerism hammered into their brains, how educated
they are, how important they think the future environment is and so
on.

Given the choice of buying gasoline from company A for
$1.60/gallon or company B for $5.00/gallon, nearly all consumers will buy A
even though company B synthesizes their gasoline from renewable,
non-polluting resources.

If extremely efficient small personal transport vehicles are
available, and common, then I suspect you might be wrong here. When
the "consumers" drive gas guzzling two and three ton monsters to cart
their frames and shopping about in traffic jams, I suspect you are
right. This would be an ideal situation to have the regulator adjust
the tax mix to direct the community into doing what is best for the
future. Individuals in the community ethos of typical
American/Australian environments are not very likely to think about
the future -- they are too busy keeping up with the Joneses, working
two jobs to pay for their heavy vehicles and their McDonalds houses.

 

[Don W.]

How's this for timescale. That area has been fighting for thousands of years
before there was a USA. And will continue to after the USA is gone, no
doubt. Goes back to Abraham kicking out the girlfriend with the bastard
child.

History a bit wonky there Steve? The Middle East was a rather peaceful
and advanced civilisation when our ancestors were beating the crap out
of each other with clubs during the dark ages. They had the first
university in the World.

The Europeans occasionally tried to invade with the crusades and of
course there were usual tribal squabbles but the real trouble started
when the West tried to impose the "nation state" on these tribal folk.

....talk about "wonky" history! Moosh, you wouldn't happen to be a Muslim
socialist would you?

Don W.

 

[Steve Spence]

ammonites, ammorites, Egypt making slaves of Israelites, meades and
Persians, and all that. nothing wrong with my history.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

How's this for timescale. That area has been fighting for thousands of years
before there was a USA. And will continue to after the USA is gone, no
doubt. Goes back to Abraham kicking out the girlfriend with the bastard
child.

History a bit wonky there Steve? The Middle East was a rather peaceful
and advanced civilisation when our ancestors were beating the crap out
of each other with clubs during the dark ages. They had the first
university in the World.

The Europeans occasionally tried to invade with the crusades and of
course there were usual tribal squabbles but the real trouble started
when the West tried to impose the "nation state" on these tribal folk.

 

[Don W.]

No, it's just the history of the Middle East that I studied a while
back at university. What problems have you with it?

The assumption that Muslims are violent war mongers is only a recent
phenomenon. Centuries ago, "people of the book" lived relatively
peacefully together. The Romans and Mongols and latter European
invaders caused their share of strife, but the Middle East per se, was
not a particularly troubled area until recent Western interference
over oil.

That's quite a load of horse manure there. You might want to get a refund on
your university bill. islam is a fairly new thing compared to the history of
the region. The area has been full of strife for many thousands of years.
look at the Romans and the Greeks. and they are newcomers so to speak.

Not to mention that Mohammed was a military leader responsible for the
deaths of thousands of people! The Ottoman Empire was not about people
being nice to each other, ethnic and religious diversity and respecting the
rights of others. Constantinople was militarily besieged and conquered.
From there began the military expansion of the Ottoman Empire and Islamic
control of trade routes between Europe, Africa and Asia. I can't think of
any religion less tolerant of others than Islam, can you? Is there any holy
book other than the q'ran that entreats followers to kill infidels
(disbelievers)?

Moosh might learn a few horrific facts about Islam here:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/
Naaaaaahhh, Moosh is Moosh.

Don W.

 

[Bill Ward]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:32:06 -0700, "Don W."

Maybe you're right. I agree that government should stay out of energy
projects completely. If there is a net profit to be made on the investment,
then private enterprise will not hesitate to make the investment. Most of
the money flowing into alternative energy projects will never show a profit
and most are horrendous investments.

Only if you think that making a profit is the only worthwhile
objective. If you factor in public good, then maybe more would indeed
make a profit if that is what you must have.

It's not a matter of what I think or what you think -- it's what consumers
do with their money!

Well that depends a lot on the ethos of the population. Whether they
have had headlong consumerism hammered into their brains, how educated
they are, how important they think the future environment is and so
on.

Given the choice of buying gasoline from company A for
$1.60/gallon or company B for $5.00/gallon, nearly all consumers will buy A
even though company B synthesizes their gasoline from renewable,
non-polluting resources.

If extremely efficient small personal transport vehicles are
available, and common, then I suspect you might be wrong here. When
the "consumers" drive gas guzzling two and three ton monsters to cart
their frames and shopping about in traffic jams, I suspect you are
right. This would be an ideal situation to have the regulator adjust
the tax mix to direct the community into doing what is best for the
future. Individuals in the community ethos of typical
American/Australian environments are not very likely to think about
the future -- they are too busy keeping up with the Joneses, working
two jobs to pay for their heavy vehicles and their McDonalds houses.

Yeah, Moosh, that's the problem with freedom. People do
what they want instead of what you think is right. But
enough force can fix that.

Regards,

Bill Ward

 

[Steve Spence]

down hill runs are not valid for scientific analysis. level terrain is
needed for proper comparison. I can get great mileage in my ford van going
downhill in neutral (85mph in va just coasting). but that is meaningless.

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

Loverly. But it costs you an arm and a leg to buy and run.
I'm talking about basic cheap economy. My son has an old Datsun 1000
cc station wagon (estate car?) It has NO luxuries (except quarter
windows to blow your hair about and it gets phenomenal mileage.


What about gliding down the road at 65mph, listening to music, and
enjoying the fresh air breeze and getting 100 miles to the gallon?
I suppose it depends what turns you on.

Nice, except even a 1 liter Datsun can't get close to 100mpg. The last
Cherry I drove was doing good to do over 40MPG.ar 60 MPH. At 45 it
might get 60.