Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

[Petzl]

On 22-Jul-13 11:01 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:

Hmmm...

I have the NBN pulling in cables at the top end of my street this morning.

Don...

Welcome to the world of knowledge and modern civilization.
A world of justice, freedom, liberty and democracy.
--
Petzl
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Q: What has Tony Abbott promised Murdoch?
A: A broadband network that will be so slow as to offer no competition to his pay TV interests.
Rupert Murdoch tries to buy U.S. presidency
http://tinyurl.com/ab3y6nl
Federal Police investigating Murdoch http://afr.com/p/business/marketing_media/federal_police_join_news_probe_s0h2FfmrnzYD7dIbq8s04L
Murdoch hiring hackers to kill off opposition

In Australia Murdoch doing the same
http://afr.com/p/business/marketing_media/pay_tv_piracy_hits_news_OV8K5fhBeGawgosSzi52MM
Paul Keating's assessment of Rupert Murdoch as "a big bad bastard"
"Murdoch 'not fit' to run News Corp" < http://tinyurl.com/7njegk3 >
"Rupert Murdoch has let it be known within his organisation that Australia needs change in Canberra and his editors were simply doing his bidding"
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12041

 

[Bob Milutinovic]

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the whole
country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!


Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and rollout
completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS that
he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre network,
eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

Compare the coalition's rejigged-one-more-time-'cause-we've-got-NFI policy
to that of roadworks. Let's take the example of majority of the M5 from
Liverpool to Lakemba.

They had the ability to implement three lanes in each direction when it was
being built, for nominally 15% more than the cost of building two lanes in
each direction - but they chose not to. Now the widening of the road to
three lanes each way is costing them 150% of the original building cost.

Let's pluck an exemplaery figure out of my arse - if the original cost of
building the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba was $1B, it would've cost them
$1.15B to make it a six-lane road - but it's now costing them a total
(including original woks) of $2.5B.

As financially painful as it might be in the short term, a complete
investment in infrastructure will yield massive rewards going into the
future without constantly "sticky-taping" costly improvements as the need
arises for each.

That doesn't mean to say I fully agree with the way in which it was
implemented; engaging contractors with NFI to do the job just because they
said they can was an utterly idiotic decision to make, not at all different
to the way in which the "free roof insulation" scheme was implemented.

Ultimately, we _do_ need this type of infrastructure if we're to even
survive through the remainder of the century - we no longer have a viable
manufacturing industry, most of our intellectual resources are being shipped
out, and anybody who thinks we're getting a fair price for the ore that's
being dug out of our land is an idiot.

Without providing technological infrastrucutre, it won't be long before we
end up being another Greece. Why do you think India's booming? It's not
because of their natural resources and definitely not because of their
capable citizens - it's because their government was astute enough to
realise that providing appropriate tools would allow even incompetents to
flourish in the new world economy.

 

[Frank Slootweg]

Yes he is, particularly with the RSP providing the NTU
with nothing in the home provided by the NBN at all.

Nope. In his proposal, there will be *no* NTU. The RSP will supply a
GPON *router* (10:54- in the presentation, the black box in the
picture), which he says the RSP will probably supply anyway.

So there's less cost - no NTU, no battery backup, etc., the white
stuff in the picture - and no extra cost.

See the presentation from 10:33-12:52.

[More of the same deleted.]

 

[Rod Speed]

Nope. In his proposal, there will be *no* NTU.

That’s not correct.

The RSP will supply a GPON *router* (10:54- in the presentation, the black
box in the picture), which he says the RSP will probably supply anyway.

And he is saying that that will be the NTU.

So there's less cost - no NTU, no battery backup, etc.,
the white stuff in the picture
Yes.

- and no extra cost.

No, what the RSP supplies will cost a little more with his approach.

See the presentation from 10:33-12:52.

That’s where I got it from.

 

[Gordon Levi]

Huh!? I don't think he's advocating any such thing. Yes, he advocates
to lower the costs (of *all* the steps/parts), but not by handing a part
of the cost to the RSPs. *hich share of which cost(s) do you think he is
handing over to the RSPs?

If all the facilities in an NBN Co NTU were deleted it made no sense
to me (or Hackett) for NBN Co to supply the NTU at all. He argues that
GPON routers, possibly with a POTS port, would best be supplied by the
RSP according to the services on offer.

I think he gives excellent arguments why implementing an *additional*,
*very* costly, network, is a stupid idea.

Well no, he merely argues that it would have been cheaper to omit the
extra ports. He accepts that some consumers may have a need for the
extra ports. Since NBN Co have already paid for the design of the
complex NTU and if NBN Co are going to supply the NTU it seems
unlikely that there would be significant savings in not supplying the
complex ones to everybody.

All current networks, happily
carry non-RSP services.

I don't understand what you mean here. How can I obtain services over
my connection that my RSP does not retail?

There is no reason to do it in another way for
the NBN. As he says (have you read his further comments?), any service
which does not go the [TCP/]IP route is brain-dead from the start.

Would a mass market RSP provide the microsecond access to stock
trading that a stock broker requires or would that require a separate
port? They certainly don't offer that now.

Like any current network, the NBN can do "a telephone-only connection
using the customers existing telephones". And yes, there will be a SP
for that connection, but that that SP may or may not be called an "RSP",
is just semantics.

I assume, possibly incorrectly, that when Telstra switch off their
copper network they will be able to seamlessly plug my telephones into
the NTU. I don't know of an [RI]SP that currently offers this.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect also
limits competition. I believe the additional points of interconnect
were added at the instigation of the ACCC because they would allow
more localised service providers and to avoid making existing telco's
fibre useless. They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes let alone
an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He *said* that he could not give such an estimate, because the needed
(NBNCo) information is not availale.

I agree that the cost
of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised. I don't see that
transferring a small fraction of those costs to the consumer via the
RSP is a benefit especially if it limits access to the NBN.

Again, he is *not* propopsing to "transfer[ring] a small fraction of
those costs to the consumer RSP". The whole point of his proposal is to
*lower* *all* cost parts.

I think you should 'watch' (listen and read) the presentation again.

I am reminded of the friends who say "you are not listening" when they
mean "you are not agreeing".

And notice the vendor (i.e. Alcatel) lock-in issue! Absurd!

No, no. It's not lock in, it is a "supplier partnership". That is
variously regarded as a way to screw the supplier, screw the customer
or as a genuine advantage to both. NBN Co have repeatedly used it as
the first of those but Alcatel is big enough to look after themselves.

 

[Damian]

Yep, back when he was the coalition leader.


Its true anyway.



It is absolutely guaranteed to cost a lot more.



None of that is his. Its what the Dud proposed
in the election that binned Howard, with the coalition
and Turdbull proclaiming that it made absolutely no
sense at all and that wireless was the way to go.


Wrong, as always.



In the election that binned Howard and made him PM.


You can't have looked very hard.


Have a look at what he proposed in the
election campaign that binned Howard.


That’s the problem with being a limp wristed
vegy, what matters that’s between your ears
drips out of your ears and you don’t have anything
left to remember the basics with anymore.



Corse they can. It’s a govt operation,
they can pull the plug any time they like.


That is a bare faced pig ignorant lie.

It’s a govt operation and they can
pull the plug any time they like.


That’s an entirely separate question to what they can do legally.


That would be completely stupid.

They should either continue with it or pull the plug on it.


Wrong, **** all of its been built and **** all are using it
and they can just flog whats been built already anyway.


Even sillier. **** all of the $50B has been spent already.


You don’t have a fucking clue on that. It’s a govt operation,
they can pull the plug on it any time they like.



Makes not sense to be doing it now when almost all of those
that want a decent broadband service already have one.



Absolutely certainly.


Nothing is going to do that with the absolute vast bulk
of the cost, fiber down the streets and how that’s done.


Its an off budget cost.


Even sillier. The govt budget has got sweet
**** all to do with anyone's living conditions.



Varys with the place we are talking about.


We already have. What's best in a particular
area depends on the detail of that area.

Ok. So, somebody lives in or edge of the jungle 30kms from the nearest
exchange, would have ADSL without any issues, right?!
Or pretty damn fast satellite internet, right?!

Clearly for new subdivisions, FTTP makes the most sense.

For areas outside the major towns where there is already
a decent broadband service, but not for the areas outside
those towns, it makes no sense to be doing FTTP.

In some areas what the NBN is doing with wireless makes sense.



All of it in fact.

So, why are you whinging about it?!
Still not clear about your expert solution to expand the ever demanding need
for bandwidth, both local and regional??!!!!

Sure, that was just a comment on your comment about the PSTN.


That last is just plain silly. There are plenty of
places that have FTTP right now world wide.

Yeah, we already know that. Smaller countries like Korea, Japan, etc are
milking it.
You don't think we suburban goons don't deserve fibre?!

Nothing special has shown up with any of those.

That's absolutely silly. Your arteries must blocked with excess grime
blocking vital oxygen to your head.
If you cut down on meat and fat, you may start to see my point, both on the
advantages of FTTP and climate change action.

The point is that that is the most dramatic approach that
could be taken and when that would have absolutely NO
effect what so ever on world climate, anything else will
have even less effect on world climate if it wasn’t for the
fact that even less than nothing is still nothing.

Climate science and mathematics are not your domain??!!!

Yeah, you say that, but the problem is that goons like Alan Jones and Tony
the Abattoir are saying the same thing.

Wont have any effect in anyone's lifetime, or their kids lifetime
or their grand kids lifetime either. None, zero, nada, not a razoo.

By that you mean you haven't got much of a clue about how the biological
life works on the planet, right?!
But, you sure do know a lot about geology, don't you?!

Yes, its clearly just an attempt to do things better for RSPs
with the usual fudging the issue claiming lower costs.

So, you don't think he's not even marginally sincere?!! He got some vested
interests to bullshit?!

Just like all spivs and con men do. The real cost is at
least $50B that someone is going to have to pay for.

True. But, shouldn't we gona have to spread a mesh of fibre all around the
suburban streets and regional main roads sooner or later?!
By that I meant FTTP. Isn't that gona be an eventuality, unless some genius
comes up with a higer bandwidth wireless technology(without higher level of
radioation, enough kill half of us by cancer)?!

Three guesses who that is going to be ?

Me an you?!!!. Well, It's me, for the most part, right?!

And even their own 'business plan' admits that.

That's a worry.

Yes, the coalition is too stupid to do that with the NBN.

They arent with Gonski tho.

Yep, and if they do that. then to compensate for the generation of
illiterate kids we will be raising, we can import Chinese kids as you
promoted while ago.
It may make sense in the long run, 'cos it was the Chinese who may have had
tried to take over the country from Aborigenes, long before Captain Jimmy
the Cooker was taking a leak in the Botany Bay.

Bullshit. If anything its even more stupid than Gonski proposed.

I didn't say it's modified in a better way.

It remains to be seen if that’s even possible.

Turn the Ball is a crafy fella. He's a former lawyer, he will find a way.
Besides, now you are insinuating the impossiblity of pulling the plug on NBN
'cos it's a 'government operation'!!!
Heavy contradiction on your side.

And what they will do when they find that it isnt.


They can pull the plug on it completely if they want to.

Not without making an absolute dog's breakfast mess.
Lib voters aren't voting for libs to create more terminal stuff ups than
John Coward era.
Having said that, Tony the Abattoire is capable of many things.
That includes his ability on rapid mutation to breath in the ever increasing
'invisible gas' without any issues on his lungs.

And that might well be a good excuse to pull the plug
on it when they discover that FTTN just isnt feasible.

That's grossly incorrect. FTTN NBN, doesn't mean to take fibre into every
single shack in outback desert.
With modifications and budget conscious tweaking, it's perfectly feasible.
The 50B or less investment should kick back within a reasonable time, if
it's implemented correctly and followed by economic policy and projects to
make a better use of FTTN NBN. The problem is two major parties are
desparately inventing slogans and silly policies to protect the country from
a
non-existing boat people threat, it's not likely they spend enough time to
govern the future political economy of the country.
They are too busy inventing bullshit to get elected at any cost.
If they can violate the consitution enough to implement hugely expensive
off-shore processing, they should be able to find a way to violate the
constitution and tweak the immigration act to not allow boat people to
settle here while allowing the boats to come onto the mainland and build
'huts' similar to Nauru and Manus island. In other words, why not promote
the 'no boat people settlement' policy while processing them on-shore?!! I
bet the boat numbers and deaths will drop,
when the so called economic migrants realize that they get to go to
detention straightaway and then get deported. That way, the billions that's
being pissed against the wall to deter people smugglers using off-shore
processing, won't be necessary. And that money may as well put into the NBN
and Gonski reforms.

They were almost stupid enough to make a Coward with a half brain, PM for a
decade.
So, anything can happen in this country. Take my word on that, dude.
KRudd was the best they ever did with democracy. Beating was good too.
The rest were sleepwalkers.

You don’t need to pay loonys anything much.

The trick is to run barefoot thru the dog shit between their ears.

Well, that's democracy. If you know a better political system and a polity,
feel free to share with us.
We carked it, attempting on Marx' version of communism, didn't we?!

You have absolutely no idea how many I have done that to already.

Have a look at what happened to a sysop in fidonet sometime.

Hint: He's dead.

Crap!!! You killed a fidonet sysop?!! Man, you should to some time for that.
)

 

[Damian]

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's version of
NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the country.

 

[Bob Milutinovic]

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's version
of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than FTTP
will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else quotes it, and in
this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send e-mails to
their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has better 'net
connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a technology which
could've bought us several more years of speed with zero cabling outlay (and
relatively small equipment outlay at the exchanges).

 

[Frank Slootweg]

That?s not correct.

I obviously meant no *NBN* NTU. A course there will always be *a* NTU.

And he is saying that that will be the NTU.

That will be "the" NTU in his proposal, not "the" NTU in the NBN's
plan.

No, what the RSP supplies will cost a little more with his approach.

He says that most RSPs would supply a GPON router anyway. If I were an
RSP, I would that too. If there's a problem, just take the fibre from
the NBN NTU and plug it in in the RSP's GPON router. That way you can
rule out the (local)NBN stuff as a cause.

 

[Frank Slootweg]

If all the facilities in an NBN Co NTU were deleted it made no sense
to me (or Hackett) for NBN Co to supply the NTU at all. He argues that
GPON routers, possibly with a POTS port, would best be supplied by the
RSP according to the services on offer.

See my responses to Rod Speed. Simon Hackett says that most RSPs will
supply GPON routers anyway. So NBNCo delivers less (and saves money) and
the RSP supllies what they would supply anyway, so no cost going from
NBNCo tp the RSP.

Well no, he merely argues that it would have been cheaper to omit the
extra ports. He accepts that some consumers may have a need for the
extra ports. Since NBN Co have already paid for the design of the
complex NTU and if NBN Co are going to supply the NTU it seems
unlikely that there would be significant savings in not supplying the
complex ones to everybody.

Huh!? Don't you think that supplying and installing *millions* of
(NBN) NTUs and battery backup systems is just a tad more expensive than
supplying and installing none!?

I don't understand what you mean here. How can I obtain services over
my connection that my RSP does not retail?

Your RSP supplies you with an *Internet connection*, *you* determine
how and for what you use that Internet connection. A service provider
can provide services to you over your Internet connection, i.e. like TV,

There is no reason to do it in another way for
the NBN. As he says (have you read his further comments?), any service
which does not go the [TCP/]IP route is brain-dead from the start.

Would a mass market RSP provide the microsecond access to stock
trading that a stock broker requires or would that require a separate
port? They certainly don't offer that now.

The providers of such (stock broker) would do exactly the same as they
do now: If a consumer-grade Internet connection isn't sufficient, they
will either demand or supply a business-grade one.

Listen/read again (to) Simon Hackett's presentation. One of his
important points is that he takes the urban legend "magic" (non-)argument
out of the NBN: The NBN is nothing special, it's a network, just a
fast(er) one.

Like any current network, the NBN can do "a telephone-only connection
using the customers existing telephones". And yes, there will be a SP
for that connection, but that that SP may or may not be called an "RSP",
is just semantics.

I assume, possibly incorrectly, that when Telstra switch off their
copper network they will be able to seamlessly plug my telephones into
the NTU. I don't know of an [RI]SP that currently offers this.

The RSPs currently don't offer that *because of* the NBN's *current*
implementation. If Simon Hackett's proposal is implemented, then - in
the vast majority of cases - the RSPs GPON modem will be used instead of
the NBN's NTU.

Believe it or not, but VOIP is not a new technology. For example I use
my "existing telephones" (with my original phone number(s)) which are
directly plugged into my SPs modem. I 'happen' to use more services than
just telephony, but if I wanted, I could have just telephony and nothing
more. Again: The NBN/fibre isn't magic, it's just *a* network.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect also
limits competition. I believe the additional points of interconnect
were added at the instigation of the ACCC because they would allow
more localised service providers and to avoid making existing telco's
fibre useless. They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes let alone
an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He *said* that he could not give such an estimate, because the needed
(NBNCo) information is not availale.

I agree that the cost
of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised. I don't see that
transferring a small fraction of those costs to the consumer via the
RSP is a benefit especially if it limits access to the NBN.

Again, he is *not* propopsing to "transfer[ring] a small fraction of
those costs to the consumer RSP". The whole point of his proposal is to
*lower* *all* cost parts.

I think you should 'watch' (listen and read) the presentation again.

I am reminded of the friends who say "you are not listening" when they
mean "you are not agreeing".

In this case there's no question of (not) argeeing. I'm just pointing
out what *Hackett* *says*. Whether you or/and I agree with his
*arguments* is another matter, but disagreeing about what he *says*/
*presents* is IMO quite silly.

No, no. It's not lock in, it is a "supplier partnership". That is
variously regarded as a way to screw the supplier, screw the customer
or as a genuine advantage to both. NBN Co have repeatedly used it as
the first of those but Alcatel is big enough to look after themselves.

Yes, it *is* a lock in. As long as the technology and code isn't
available to all (i.e. 'open'), it's a lock in. There currently is only
one *possible* supplier -> lock in.

 

[Rod Speed]

Ok. So, somebody lives in or edge of the jungle 30kms from the nearest
exchange, would have ADSL without any issues, right?!

There is no jungle in this country.

And yes, some who are 30K from the nearest town
exchange can have adsl off a CMUX or RIM or even
one of those exchanges in a shipping container sized
thing that are so common in rural areas outside towns.

Or pretty damn fast satellite internet, right?!

Yes, that is what is done with the most remote communitys.

So, why are you whinging about it?!

Because its completely stupid to be adding lots of nodes and
redoing the existing copper network to connect to those instead
of the exchange they currently go back to. It makes sense to
leave those alone when the customers on them currently
have a decent broadband service if they want one.

It makes absolutely no sense to be spending anything
like $50B on those at a time when the govt has plenty
of things that $50B can be better spent on.

Still not clear about your expert solution to expand the ever demanding
need for bandwidth, both local and regional??!!!!

I've told you in this post alone. Provide a decent broadband
service for those who currently can't have one. Don’t piss
anything like $50B against the wall ripping out what currently
provides a very decent broadband service for anyone who
wants one. If Murdoch doesn’t like the fact that it can't be
used for the best delivery of PayTV, he can pay that $50B himself
or go and **** himself if he can actually get it up anymore.

Yeah, we already know that. Smaller countries like Korea, Japan, etc are
milking it.

But haven't produced ANY applications that
we don’t even have a clue about right now.

Because there arent any that matter a damn.

You don't think we suburban goons don't deserve fibre?!

Its got nothing to do with deserve. What matters is whether
it makes any sense to spend anything like $50B right now
for what is undoubtedly better than what we have now,
but only really any better for PayTV distribution.

That's absolutely silly.

Then you will be able to list all the stuff that has shown
up in those places that do have FTTP that we can't do
here. There aint any. None, nada, ziltch, not one.

Climate science and mathematics are not your domain??!!!

Wanking is clearly yours.

Yeah, you say that,

Anyone with even half a clue does. Even that fool Flannery does.

but the problem is that goons like Alan Jones and Tony the Abattoir are
saying the same thing.

Doesn’t matter a damn what they say, its true.

By that you mean you haven't got much of a clue about how the biological
life works on the planet, right?!

That’s talking about what climate change does to biological
life, not what anything AUSTRALIA does have any effect at all.

But, you sure do know a lot about geology, don't you?!

So, you don't think he's not even marginally sincere?!!

I didn’t say that, just that he is raving on about a small part of the
problem.

Yes, it does make sense to instead of going for a very fancy
complex NTU unique to this country to have the RSP provide
all the hardware in the house instead. But that’s not going
to make much difference to the cost of the NBN now.

He got some vested interests to bullshit?!

He obviously has being an RSP himself.

True. But, shouldn't we gona have to spread a mesh of fibre all around
the suburban streets and regional main roads sooner or later?!

No, not when we currently have much better
things than that to spend anything like $50B on.

Even traffic gridlock in Sydney alone is MUCH more
important and is wasting MUCH more money on all
those fools running their engines and moving nowhere.

By that I meant FTTP. Isn't that gona be an eventuality, unless some
genius comes up with a higer bandwidth wireless technology

Yes, but there are more important things to be spending $50B on right now.

(without higher level of radioation, enough kill half of us by cancer)?!

You don’t get cancer from wireless transmissions that far
away from you. We've been doing that with TV for more
than half a century now at MUCH higher power levels and
with radio for even longer than that.

Me an you?!!!. Well, It's me, for the most part, right?!
Nope.

That's a worry.

Yep, and if they do that. then to compensate for the generation of
illiterate kids we will be raising,

We didn’t do anything like that before that fool Gonski
showed up.

we can import Chinese kids as you promoted while ago.
It may make sense in the long run, 'cos it was the Chinese who may have
had tried to take over the country from Aborigenes, long before Captain
Jimmy the Cooker was taking a leak in the Botany Bay.

Like hell they did. They in fact cruised around even
as far as Africa, decided it was all too boring to bother
with and scrapped their entire ocean going fleet.

I didn't say it's modified in a better way.

Turn the Ball is a crafy fella.

Bullshit he is. He is so stupid that he didn’t even notice
what those in his own party were interested in climate
change wise and pulled the plug on any possibility of
ever being PM and quit politics and only stayed in
politics when his nose was rubbed in what would
happen to the coalition with a by election in his seat.

He's a former lawyer, he will find a way.

Not a chance.

Besides, now you are insinuating the impossiblity of pulling the plug on
NBN 'cos it's a 'government operation'!!!

Nope, I JUST said that they have changed their mind on
pulling the plug on it. Nothing to do with that is possible.

Heavy contradiction on your side.

Nope, terminal stupidity on yours.

Not without making an absolute dog's breakfast mess.

Bullshit. So little of its been built that it would be a complete yawn.

Lib voters aren't voting for libs to create more terminal stuff ups than
John Coward era.

They are pulling the plug on the Dud, you watch.

So is everyone else.

Just like they did with NSW Labor, Qld Labor, etc etc etc.

Having said that, Tony the Abattoire is capable of many things.
That includes his ability on rapid mutation to breath in the ever
increasing 'invisible gas' without any issues on his lungs.

That's grossly incorrect.
Nope.

FTTN NBN, doesn't mean to take fibre into every single shack in outback
desert.

Yes, but even the Dud noticed that FTTN isnt viable, that’s why
he went for FTTP after he had proposed doing FTTN instead.

With modifications and budget conscious tweaking, it's perfectly feasible.

Its certainly possible, but it wont save a cent and so is pointless
because it requires the long term maintenance of the copper network.

The 50B or less investment should kick back within a reasonable time,

Its more work than FTTP, particularly once the basic
structure of the FTTP has all been designed already.

if it's implemented correctly and followed by economic policy
Waffle.

and projects to make a better use of FTTN NBN.

No such animal.

The problem is two major parties are desparately inventing slogans and
silly policies to protect the country from a non-existing boat people
threat,

Its not a threat. 18K arseholes jumping the queue in just 6 months with
the numbers increasing every day is something that needs to be fixed.

it's not likely they spend enough time to govern the future political
economy of the country.

None of those fools has any effect on the economy of the country.

They are too busy inventing bullshit to get elected at any cost.
If they can violate the consitution enough to implement hugely expensive
off-shore processing,

The constitution is silent on those issues so it can't be violated.

they should be able to find a way to violate the constitution and tweak
the immigration act to not allow boat people to settle here while allowing
the boats to come onto the mainland and build 'huts' similar to Nauru and
Manus island.

Why should we build a damned thing for arsehole queue jumpers ?

In other words, why not promote the 'no boat people settlement' policy
while processing them on-shore?!!

Because that won't stop them coming.

Making it clear to them that they will never be accepted here and
will end up in some armpit of the world like PNG might well do.

I bet the boat numbers and deaths will drop, when the so called economic
migrants realize that they get to go to detention straightaway and then
get deported.

Its going to drop much more if they get dumped in PNG instead.

And there is nothing so called about it, they are just economic migrants.

That way, the billions that's being pissed against the wall to deter
people smugglers using off-shore processing, won't be necessary.

Wrong. That’s the only thing that has any possibility of stopping them.

And that money may as well put into the NBN and Gonski reforms.

There are much better things to put it into.

They were almost stupid enough to make a Coward with a half brain, PM for
a decade. So, anything can happen in this country. Take my word on that,
dude.

Nope, I'll flush it where it belongs, dud.

KRudd was the best they ever did with democracy. Beating was good too.
The rest were sleepwalkers.

He'll be flushed where he belongs, just like Cheating was.

Whitless in spades.

Well, that's democracy. If you know a better political system and a
polity, feel free to share with us.

Just how many of you are there between those ears, boy ?

We carked it, attempting on Marx' version of communism, didn't we?!

Nope. We were never that stupid.

Crap!!! You killed a fidonet sysop?!! Man, you should to some time for
that. )

I should be rewarded and was.

 

[Rod Speed]

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's version
of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the country.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

 

[Rod Speed]

I obviously meant no *NBN* NTU. A course there will always be *a* NTU.

That will be "the" NTU in his proposal, not "the" NTU in the NBN's plan.

What I said.

He says that most RSPs would supply a GPON router anyway.

I doubt that’s correct with RSPs competing aggressively.

Plenty would go with the lowest cost with the current NBN NTUs in place.

If I were an RSP, I would that too. If there's a problem, just take the
fibre from the NBN NTU and plug it in in the RSP's GPON router.

But **** up the TV distribution when you do that.

That way you can rule out the (local)NBN stuff as a cause.

Only if what the RSP provides can do that.

And only with those who have paid the higher price for
what the RSP provides instead of using their own device too.

 

[Damian]

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than FTTP
will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else quotes it, and
in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send e-mails
to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has better 'net
connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a technology which
could've bought us several more years of speed with zero cabling outlay
(and relatively small equipment outlay at the exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.
IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble and a good one. But we should've debated and
researched it lot more before going ahead with the current FTTP version of
the NBN. I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation
and research. Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

 

[Damian]

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!! Seriously lacks any technical details.
How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!
Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!
What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional) that
need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!
You need to give some tech details, otherwise they are just sweet words that
may turn bitter.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like
that.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.
I quote you here,

"I just don’t see any reason to be
spending anything like $50B NOW when most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband
service to those who can't currently have one using whatever
makes the most sense with those who can't currently have
a decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!
I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the nation.
'Whatever' isn't good enough. Pollies like to hear details regardless of
whether they can understand it or not.

 

[Rod Speed]

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going ahead
with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation and
research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

 

[Rod Speed]

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!!
Nope.

Seriously lacks any technical details.

Nope, those are there right now.

How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!

They don’t need at least 20Mbps.

ADSL2+ will do them fine and most of them have that right now.

The problem isnt the towns, its those well out of the towns.

Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!
Yes.

What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional) that
need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!

None of them need anything like that.

You need to give some tech details,
Nope.

otherwise they are just sweet words that may turn bitter.
Nope.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.
Nope.

I quote you here,

"I just don’t see any reason to be spending anything like $50B NOW when
most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that MOST OF US is nothing even remotely
resembling anything like ALL OF US.

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband service to
those who can't currently have one

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that THOSE WHO CAN'T CURRENTLY HAVE
ONE is nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

using whatever makes the most sense with those who can't currently have a
decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!

Because anyone with even half a clue who has been following
the debate about the NBN knows that that is by using whatever
of ADSL2+. wireless the way the NBN is doing it right now, and
satellite and FTTP are the way to do that.

I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the nation.

Then just die quietly.

'Whatever' isn't good enough.

You get no say what so ever on what is or is not good enough.

Pollies like to hear details regardless of whether they can understand it
or not.

No one with even half a clue actually gives a flying red ****
what those stupid clowns might or might not like to hear.

 

[Damian]

There is no jungle in this country.

And yes, some who are 30K from the nearest town
exchange can have adsl off a CMUX or RIM or even
one of those exchanges in a shipping container sized
thing that are so common in rural areas outside towns.


Yes, that is what is done with the most remote communitys.



Because its completely stupid to be adding lots of nodes and
redoing the existing copper network to connect to those instead
of the exchange they currently go back to. It makes sense to
leave those alone when the customers on them currently
have a decent broadband service if they want one.

It makes absolutely no sense to be spending anything
like $50B on those at a time when the govt has plenty
of things that $50B can be better spent on.

That's a pretty good point.
Can you point out few things that 50B should be spent on instead of NBN and
Gonski?!

I've told you in this post alone. Provide a decent broadband
service for those who currently can't have one. Don’t piss
anything like $50B against the wall ripping out what currently
provides a very decent broadband service for anyone who
wants one. If Murdoch doesn’t like the fact that it can't be
used for the best delivery of PayTV, he can pay that $50B himself
or go and **** himself if he can actually get it up anymore.

Ok Basically, you are saying this high speed internet NBN project doesn't
have anything to do with the need of average public or their services.
It's got more to do with the business needs of Billionaires like Murdoch,
right?!!

But haven't produced ANY applications that
we don’t even have a clue about right now.

May be we should wait and see. Japanese and Germans, (or Japs and Krouts as
you affectionately call) may come up with real applications for the future,
where the fibre network can be utilized cleverely.
Having basic infrastructure does help lot of things that we may not have a
clue about yet.
But, the real question is how is too much and too soon.
You are saying the fibre NBN is a 'money pissing against wall' plan.
I'm not sure yet. I can see it's a gamble for sure.

Because there arent any that matter a damn.

That's not true. It's clearly demonstrated that certain businesses and
medical applications can benefit of speeds around 100Mbps.
Whether it's worth the 50B within few years, on tax payers arse?!! That is
definitely debatable.

Its got nothing to do with deserve. What matters is whether
it makes any sense to spend anything like $50B right now
for what is undoubtedly better than what we have now,
but only really any better for PayTV distribution.

If you have indisputable evidence to support that statement, then the
current FTTP NBN(let alone Turnball's FTTN), is a clear
scam played on average tax payers pocket by big business goons by playing
the politicians.
But, that's a big if, from where I stand.
You ain't a conspiracy theorist are you?! I'm sure you know what you are
talking about, right?!!

Then again, traditionally Labor hasn't been easy to play around like that by
big business goons, where the Libs are lot easier, since their desparation
for conservative ideals(regardless of calling themselves Libs). Lets not
forget it's a right wing(not left wing) Labor leader who picked a real big
fight with miners, regarding restructing the tax system to make them pay
more tax.

Then you will be able to list all the stuff that has shown
up in those places that do have FTTP that we can't do
here. There aint any. None, nada, ziltch, not one.

That's quite a challenge. I can name a few. Whether they matter to public in
the big picture yet is something I'm not sure.(No digital payTV ain't one of
them)
But, definitely it will in the future.
Give me some time to work on that list, ok?!!!

Wanking is clearly yours.

Ain't that everybody's??!! At least I don't need to rely on my wanking tool
to open the iphone 5 sim slot like you do, eh?!! )

Anyone with even half a clue does. Even that fool Flannery does.

Wonder why he's breaking our balls with all his climate action proposals!!!!

Doesn’t matter a damn what they say, its true.



That’s talking about what climate change does to biological
life, not what anything AUSTRALIA does have any effect at all.

Imagine all the other countries adopting the same argument like yours and do
nothing, simply 'cos it won't have any effect.
Absolutely mad IMO.

I didn’t say that, just that he is raving on about a small part of the
problem.

Yes, it does make sense to instead of going for a very fancy
complex NTU unique to this country to have the RSP provide
all the hardware in the house instead. But that’s not going
to make much difference to the cost of the NBN now.


He obviously has being an RSP himself.



No, not when we currently have much better
things than that to spend anything like $50B on.

Yeah, that may make sense, but, what are those more important things(other
than Sydney traffic bottleneck)?!!
'Cos I bet the rest of the country won't give a rat's poop about Sydney
traffic issue, mostly sydney dwellers give a shit about that.

Even traffic gridlock in Sydney alone is MUCH more
important and is wasting MUCH more money on all
those fools running their engines and moving nowhere.


Yes, but there are more important things to be spending $50B on right now.


You don’t get cancer from wireless transmissions that far
away from you. We've been doing that with TV for more
than half a century now at MUCH higher power levels and
with radio for even longer than that.

It's likely that won't cut it for higher bandwidth wireless technology.
If we are looking at decent higher bandwidth wireless technology, then we
are looking at higher power micro waves, unless
some genius come up with something unique.
We already know what mobile phone radioation can do to our brain(and our
arse and testicles)

Nope.

Your great great great great grand children??!! That only if you've managed
to produce any. Somthing tells me you haven't!!!

We didn’t do anything like that before that fool Gonski
showed up.

Shouldn't we thank him with warm hearts for spending his own time, energy
and money on that project?!!
He obviously gives a clear shit about our future generation.

Like hell they did. They in fact cruised around even
as far as Africa, decided it was all too boring to bother
with and scrapped their entire ocean going fleet.

That's not what I heard. They were mining here already and Dutch were here
long before the Jimmy the Cooker showed up on the beach for a piss.

Bullshit he is. He is so stupid that he didn’t even notice
what those in his own party were interested in climate
change wise and pulled the plug on any possibility of
ever being PM and quit politics and only stayed in
politics when his nose was rubbed in what would
happen to the coalition with a by election in his seat.

Man, he lost to Tony the Abattoire by one ballot.
Doesn't that tell you something?!! Even Johnny the Coward kept going on
about an ETS before he was kicked out.
Turnball didn't do something off the grid by supporting the ETS. There are
fair number of Libs who's in favour of it.
Just because many Libs follow lib philosophy doesn't necessarily mean they
live in a fantasy world like Tony the Abattoire.

And if Turnball is patient enough, he may even be the first President of
Australian Republic.
From what I know, he doesn't sniff royal bums and never has.

Not a chance.


Nope, I JUST said that they have changed their mind on
pulling the plug on it. Nothing to do with that is possible.


Nope, terminal stupidity on yours.

Are you sure you are not on a heavy dose of home brew?!!!

Bullshit. So little of its been built that it would be a complete yawn.

I didn't mean just infastructure wise.

They are pulling the plug on the Dud, you watch.

Ever wonder why he's heading towards 51/49 ??!!

So is everyone else.

Just like they did with NSW Labor, Qld Labor, etc etc etc.

Qld labor will kick back in next election with a vengance.
Newman made a dog's breakfast of economy and politics there and still going.
He will flushed down the sewer in next election, guaranteed.


You say that. Couldn't find any records.

Yes, but even the Dud noticed that FTTN isnt viable, that’s why
he went for FTTP after he had proposed doing FTTN instead.


Its certainly possible, but it wont save a cent and so is pointless
because it requires the long term maintenance of the copper network.

Yeah, but that's necessary anyway under your scheme of ' do nothing'.

Its more work than FTTP, particularly once the basic
structure of the FTTP has all been designed already.


Waffle.

Yep. I don't have all the technical details of the policies yet, but I'm
working on it.

No such animal.

Didn't there is. it's a future possiblity with Turnball, but that's only if
his Lib team can survive Krudd onslaught.

Its not a threat. 18K arseholes jumping the queue in just 6 months with
the numbers increasing every day is something that needs to be fixed.


None of those fools has any effect on the economy of the country.

Good reason not to piss money against walls on them then.

The constitution is silent on those issues so it can't be violated.


Why should we build a damned thing for arsehole queue jumpers ?

"cos we are pissing out money against walls on countries like PNG, Nauru,
etc.
It's better spent here, with certain tweaking on migration act.
And guaranteed to be cheaper, both on short and long run.
But, the issue won't be any use for the major parties to get elected if they
abandon off-shore processing.
So, they won't do it.

Because that won't stop them coming.

Nothing will stop them coming. It's bullshit to think we can.
We can only manage it to suit our resources.
And discourage them to get on boats using our on-shore policies.
We will still get boats landing on shores and them coming here and living
here illlegally.
That's been happening for a long time.
We can't protect every sqaure inch of the Australian coastal sea.

Making it clear to them that they will never be accepted here and
will end up in some armpit of the world like PNG might well do.


Its going to drop much more if they get dumped in PNG instead.

It will with the new Krudd slogan, but at a very high cost to taxpayers.
That's why it's only for twelve months. Not sure what happens after that.

And there is nothing so called about it, they are just economic migrants.

That's bullshit. But doesn't negate the fact that we can't take them all.

Wrong. That’s the only thing that has any possibility of stopping them.

You can't stop them. You can only manage to a level that it won't be a pain
in the arse for the Australian public.

There are much better things to put it into.

That's debatable.

Nope, I'll flush it where it belongs, dud.


He'll be flushed where he belongs, just like Cheating was.

Whitless in spades.

Yep. You are eating thanks to them.
Without his medicare, you will be lost under the beds of public hospitals.
So, show some gratitute old timer, the same way that I show the respect for
your lifetime of knowledge.

Just how many of you are there between those ears, boy ?



Nope. We were never that stupid.

By that I didn't mean 'we' Aussie bummers, I meant the human race.
I know, you've never been outside the country, since you are scared crap of
flying(or sailing).
So, this is the only landscape you know about, right?!

I should be rewarded and was.

Care to share how you were rewarded??!!

 

[Rod Speed]

That's a pretty good point.

Mine always are.

Can you point out few things that 50B should be spent on instead of NBN
and Gonski?!

Already did.

Traffic congestion/gridlock in Sydney.

Decent aged care facilitys for the increasing numbers who need that.

Waiting times for non urgent surgery right around the country.

Those alone are MUCH more important that providing TV
to the home when that is available right now quite adequately.

Ok Basically, you are saying this high speed internet NBN project doesn't
have anything to do with the need of average public or their services.

Yes, because most of them can already have
a decent broadband service if they want one.

It's got more to do with the business needs of Billionaires like Murdoch,
right?!!

Just Murdoch in fact because he has a monopoly on the bulk of PayTV right
now.

The others are already doing it over the existing broadband services fine.

He is too, but is demanding even more at taxpayer expense.

He got the cable service at taxpayer expense and
should be told to go and **** himself on FTTP.

May be we should wait and see.

Nope, they have had FTTP for quite a while
already and nothing special has turned up at all.

Japanese and Germans, (or Japs and Krouts as you affectionately call) may
come up with real applications for the future, where the fibre network can
be utilized cleverely.

Since some already have FTTP, we can wait and see if they
ever do and consider spending anything like $50B if they
do and we decide its worth that sort of money.

Having basic infrastructure does help lot of things that we may not have a
clue about yet.

It hasn’t with FTTP where they have that.

But, the real question is how is too much and too soon. You are saying the
fibre NBN is a 'money pissing against wall' plan.

While ever all we can come up with that
works any better is video distribution.

I'm not sure yet. I can see it's a gamble for sure.

Its stupid to be spending anything like $50B without
knowing what it can deliver when there are plenty of
other things that are KNOWN to be much more useful
to spend $50B on.

That's not true.

Yes it is.

It's clearly demonstrated that certain businesses and medical applications
can benefit of speeds around 100Mbps.

Just video distribution in fact with businesses.

None with medical applications.

And even if it was true with medical applications, and its not, it only
makes sense to do FTTP for those where it does have any value.

Whether it's worth the 50B within few years, on tax payers arse?!! That is
definitely debatable.

Nope, we know its not when video distribution is quite adequate already.

If you have indisputable evidence to support that statement, then the
current FTTP NBN(let alone Turnball's FTTN), is a clear scam played on
average tax payers pocket by big business goons by playing the
politicians.

Not that so much. Its actually what that fool the Dud chose
to go for when he discovered that no one was actually stupid
enough to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTP.

And he did that without any analysis what so ever, he just
plucked it out of his arse to save his political skin when
he discovered that no one was actually stupid enough
to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTN,
which he also plucked out of his lard arse in a desperate
attempt to get elected to govt from opposition.

But, that's a big if, from where I stand.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

You ain't a conspiracy theorist are you?!

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

I'm sure you know what you are talking about, right?!!
Yep.

Then again, traditionally Labor hasn't been easy to play around like that
by big business goons,

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

where the Libs are lot easier,

Even sillier.

since their desparation for conservative ideals
(regardless of calling themselves Libs).

Even sillier.

Lets not forget it's a right wing(not left wing) Labor leader who picked a
real big fight with miners, regarding restructing the tax system to make
them pay more tax.

In fact he did nothing of the sort and just blew both his feet
right off and got absolutely NOTHING in more tax out of them.

That's quite a challenge. I can name a few.

No you can't.

Whether they matter to public in the big picture yet is something I'm not
sure.(No digital payTV ain't one of them)

We've had digital PayTV for a long time now.

But, definitely it will in the future.

Easy to claim.

Give me some time to work on that list, ok?!!!

Nope, if there was anything you wouldn’t need any time at all.

Ain't that everybody's??!!
Nope.

At least I don't need to rely on my wanking tool to open the iphone 5 sim
slot like you do, eh?!! )

Just as well, you snapped yours off.

Wonder why he's breaking our balls with all his climate action
proposals!!!!

Because he's a fool that doesn’t have a fucking clue about anything at all,
ever.

Imagine all the other countries adopting the same argument like yours and
do nothing, simply 'cos it won't have any effect.

They are doing that anyway.

Absolutely mad IMO.

Your opinion is completely irrelevant.

Yeah, that may make sense, but, what are those more important things(other
than Sydney traffic bottleneck)?!!

Already told you.

'Cos I bet the rest of the country won't give a rat's poop about Sydney
traffic issue,

They do about the other ones.

mostly sydney dwellers give a shit about that.

Not just them, anyone who has a clue about the waste that produces.

It's likely that won't cut it for higher bandwidth wireless technology.

It aint about power levels.

If we are looking at decent higher bandwidth wireless technology, then we
are looking at higher power micro waves,
Nope.

unless some genius come up with something unique.

Don’t need that. The NBN is doing it already.

We already know what mobile phone radioation can do to our brain

No we don’t. It doesn’t do anything at all.

(and our arse and testicles)

Those even less than nothing.

Your great great great great grand children??!!
Nope.

That only if you've managed to produce any. Somthing tells me you
haven't!!!

Then you need a new hearing aid.

Shouldn't we thank him with warm hearts for spending his own time, energy
and money on that project?!!

Nope, not when he's so stupid that he can't even manage
to work out that when the numbers of kids in schools keeps
dropping, that last thing we should be doing is pissing
billions of bucks more educating a shrinking number of kids.

He obviously gives a clear shit about our future generation.

But doesn’t have a fucking clue about what to do about that.

That's not what I heard.

Then you need to get a new hearing aid BAD.

They were mining here already

Bullshit they were.

and Dutch were here long before the Jimmy the Cooker showed up on the
beach for a piss.

Yes, but only by accident. Not deliberately.

And they had enough of a clue to notice that what later became
Indonesia was a lot more useful to them than here too.

Man, he lost to Tony the Abattoire by one ballot.
Doesn't that tell you something?!!

Yep, that some didn’t see the assassination
of the leader so publicly was a great idea.

Even Johnny the Coward kept going on about an ETS before he was kicked
out.

Yes, he was that stupid.

Turnball didn't do something off the grid by supporting the ETS.

Yes he did.

There are fair number of Libs who's in favour of it.

**** all in fact.

Just because many Libs follow lib philosophy doesn't necessarily mean they
live in a fantasy world like Tony the Abattoire.

**** all want any ETS at all.

And if Turnball is patient enough, he may even be the first President of
Australian Republic.

Not a chance, you watch.

Even if Abbot gets run over riding his stupid bike,
they won't be having Turdbull again, you watch.

From what I know, he doesn't sniff royal bums and never has.

Irrelevant to whether they will ever have him again.

Are you sure you are not on a heavy dose of home brew?!!!

Nope, no dose at all in fact.

I didn't mean just infastructure wise.

There would be no dogs breakfast any wise.

Ever wonder why he's heading towards 51/49 ??!!

Like hell he is.

Qld labor will kick back in next election with a vengance.

Pigs arse they will.

Newman made a dog's breakfast of economy and politics there and still
going. He will flushed down the sewer in next election, guaranteed.

You really should give up on that whacky weed, boy.

Its only Labor that ever has one term in govt.

You say that. Couldn't find any records.

Have a look at the wealth of tenders to build it that Dud got.

Yeah, but that's necessary anyway under your scheme of ' do nothing'.

I never ever said anything about do nothing.

Yep. I don't have all the technical details of the policies yet, but I'm
working on it.

Can't even spell wanking.

Didn't there is. it's a future possiblity with Turnball,
Nope.

but that's only if his Lib team can survive Krudd onslaught.

There is no onslaught, just more piss and wind.

Good reason not to piss money against walls on them then.

You were talking about the pollys there, not the arsehole queue jumpers.

"cos we are pissing out money against walls on countries like PNG, Nauru,
etc.

Nope, just doing what might see less arsehole queue jumpers show up.

It's better spent here, with certain tweaking on migration act.

Nope, that aint gunna stop them coming.

And guaranteed to be cheaper, both on short and long run.

Even sillier.

But, the issue won't be any use for the major parties to get elected if
they abandon off-shore processing.
So, they won't do it.

They won't do it because it wont stop the arseholes coming.

Even the Dud knows that.

Nothing will stop them coming.

Bullshit. Shooting them dead if they show up in Australian waters would.

Blowing their boats out of the water and letting them drown would too.

It's bullshit to think we can.

Howard's policy showed we can.

We can only manage it to suit our resources.
Bullshit.

And discourage them to get on boats using our on-shore policies.

Not even possible.

We will still get boats landing on shores and them coming here and living
here illlegally.
That's been happening for a long time.
We can't protect every sqaure inch of the Australian coastal sea.

We can do what sees them decide to stop coming.

It will with the new Krudd slogan, but at a very high cost to taxpayers.

Nope, it cost peanuts compared with letting anyone who wants to
show up here.

That's why it's only for twelve months.

Like hell it is.

Not sure what happens after that.

They've stopped coming because PNG is
much worse than where they are coming from.

That's bullshit.

Its fact.

But doesn't negate the fact that we can't take them all.

So we need to make it clear to them that they will end up in
PNG and be much worse off there than were they came from.

You can't stop them.

Howard did.

You can only manage to a level that it won't be a pain in the arse for the
Australian public.
Bullshit.

That's debatable.
Nope.

Yep. You are eating thanks to them.

Pigs arse I am.

Without his medicare, you will be lost under the beds of public hospitals.

Even sillier.

So, show some gratitute old timer,

That fool didn’t do a damned thing for me except provide a
bit of entertainment when he was flushed where he belongs.

Same with the Dud, you watch.

I've already had that when Juliar flushed herself too.

By that I didn't mean 'we' Aussie bummers, I meant the human race.

**** all of the human race was actually that stupid.

I know, you've never been outside the country,

Guess who has got egg all over its silly little face, yet again.

I've spent a lot more time out of the country than you have, boy.

since you are scared crap of flying(or sailing).

Unlikely given that I have owned and flown a number of planes, child.

So, this is the only landscape you know about, right?!

Wrong, as always.

Care to share how you were rewarded??!!

He was gone.

 

[Damian]

Mine always are.


Already did.

Traffic congestion/gridlock in Sydney.

Decent aged care facilitys for the increasing numbers who need that.

Waiting times for non urgent surgery right around the country.

Those alone are MUCH more important that providing TV
to the home when that is available right now quite adequately.



Yes, because most of them can already have
a decent broadband service if they want one.


Just Murdoch in fact because he has a monopoly on the bulk of PayTV right
now.

The others are already doing it over the existing broadband services fine.

He is too, but is demanding even more at taxpayer expense.

He got the cable service at taxpayer expense and
should be told to go and **** himself on FTTP.



Nope, they have had FTTP for quite a while
already and nothing special has turned up at all.


Since some already have FTTP, we can wait and see if they
ever do and consider spending anything like $50B if they
do and we decide its worth that sort of money.


It hasn’t with FTTP where they have that.


While ever all we can come up with that
works any better is video distribution.


Its stupid to be spending anything like $50B without
knowing what it can deliver when there are plenty of
other things that are KNOWN to be much more useful
to spend $50B on.



Yes it is.


Just video distribution in fact with businesses.

None with medical applications.

And even if it was true with medical applications, and its not, it only
makes sense to do FTTP for those where it does have any value.


Nope, we know its not when video distribution is quite adequate already.



Not that so much. Its actually what that fool the Dud chose
to go for when he discovered that no one was actually stupid
enough to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTP.

And he did that without any analysis what so ever, he just
plucked it out of his arse to save his political skin when
he discovered that no one was actually stupid enough
to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTN,
which he also plucked out of his lard arse in a desperate
attempt to get elected to govt from opposition.


Having fun thrashing that straw man ?


Having fun thrashing that straw man ?


Having fun thrashing that straw man ?


Even sillier.


Even sillier.


In fact he did nothing of the sort and just blew both his feet
right off and got absolutely NOTHING in more tax out of them.



No you can't.


We've had digital PayTV for a long time now.


Easy to claim.


Nope, if there was anything you wouldn’t need any time at all.



Just as well, you snapped yours off.



Because he's a fool that doesn’t have a fucking clue about anything at
all, ever.



They are doing that anyway.


Your opinion is completely irrelevant.



Already told you.

Like pissing money on off-shore processing in Nauru and PNG by giving
millions of our money to them, so their corrupted pollies can wank at banana
trees with
our money?!!

They do about the other ones.


Not just them, anyone who has a clue about the waste that produces.



It aint about power levels.


Don’t need that. The NBN is doing it already.

There's nothing unique about NBN. Fibre has been around for a long time.
It's indeed old technology rejuvenated.

No we don’t. It doesn’t do anything at all.

Obviously not to you. It's not easy for anything to get through your thick
skull, eh?!!
But, the rest of us can be affected by mobile phone radiation.
The researchers say so.

Those even less than nothing.



Nope.

Little green men?!!

Then you need a new hearing aid.

Hearing aid helps me to hear the nagging of your non existing great great
great great grand children??!!
How does that work?!

Nope, not when he's so stupid that he can't even manage
to work out that when the numbers of kids in schools keeps
dropping, that last thing we should be doing is pissing
billions of bucks more educating a shrinking number of kids.

So, we should spend that money ugrading the sydney road network and high
speed railway projects, right?!!
And perhaps upgrade all the inner city streets, so Packer boy can build more
and more casinos, right?!!

But doesn’t have a fucking clue about what to do about that.

And you obviously have a clue?!!

Then you need to get a new hearing aid BAD.

My hearing is superb. as a matter of fact it's better than average.
My range expands into the higher frequency where most people can't hear.
Above 20kHz to be precise. Ain't that great?!!
Rumour is that your range is between 30-50 Hz !!!

Bullshit they were.

Of course they were man. They entered via the northern tip and have been
trading with northern aborigenes, long before the anglos showed up.

Yes, but only by accident. Not deliberately.

Who said the Jimmy Cooker was here deliberately?!! He was bullshitting the
British royalty to get into the history books by fudging his records.
And the polynesians took care of him for spreading all the diseases, but
they were too late, weren't they?
Luckily for him, the aborigenes weren't anywhere as violent as polynesians,
so he did manage to contaminate here pretty well.
Hence, we are here, right?!!

And they had enough of a clue to notice that what later became
Indonesia was a lot more useful to them than here too.



Yep, that some didn’t see the assassination
of the leader so publicly was a great idea.

Well, it's not a great idea after all, it's the dumbest thing coaltion did.
They would've had the upcoming election in their pockets, easily, if they
had kept Turnball.
Now, they have Krudd the ultimate warrior to deal with, and Tony the
Abattoire is sweating hard.

On the other hand, there's no way to kill a leader in stealth mode, it gonna
be public one way or the other.
And Aussies obviously don't like inner party dog fights and kinghits. Krudd
and Turnball's popularity is partly(or mainly) due to the underdog effect.

Yes, he was that stupid.

I'm glad you see him that way.

Yes he did.

He's still in favour of ETS. He's only bashing carbon tax to stick around
for bit longer with Tony the Abattoire, so when Abbot is flushed down the
sewer,
he gets his revenge and his old job back.

**** all in fact.


**** all want any ETS at all.


Not a chance, you watch.

Even if Abbot gets run over riding his stupid bike,
they won't be having Turdbull again, you watch.

Abbot will be covered in fresh sewage soon, underground. Wait and see.
Then he won't have to worry too much about sniffing queen's bum.

Irrelevant to whether they will ever have him again.

It is. Royal bum sniffers won't have much of a future here in the future.

Nope, no dose at all in fact.



There would be no dogs breakfast any wise.



Like hell he is.



Pigs arse they will.


You really should give up on that whacky weed, boy.

Its only Labor that ever has one term in govt.

If that's the case, it will start from Q'land, put on your glasses and keep
watching Newman getting flushed where he belongs.

Have a look at the wealth of tenders to build it that Dud got.

Nothing there.

I never ever said anything about do nothing.

"Do something" then?!!!

Can't even spell wanking.

Me or you?!!

There is no onslaught, just more piss and wind.

Yeah, I can see and hear you and Libs pissing themselves 'cos of the Krudd
resurgence.

You were talking about the pollys there, not the arsehole queue jumpers.

So, pollys don't have any effect on the economy of the country?!!

Nope, just doing what might see less arsehole queue jumpers show up.

Bullshit. it never have any valuable effect. Just pissing our money.
The new policy(no settlement of boat arrivals) may have effect.
But the policy will be short lived, since it's happening in PNG at a high
cost.

Nope, that aint gunna stop them coming.

Didn't say it does. There's no need to stop them coming, 'cos it's not
possible.

Even sillier.

Not if you can count.

They won't do it because it wont stop the arseholes coming.

It won't and there's no need to. Only need a deterrent.

Even the Dud knows that.



Bullshit. Shooting them dead if they show up in Australian waters would.

Blowing their boats out of the water and letting them drown would too.

Only a terminal mental patient would do that.
Care to volunteer?

Howard's policy showed we can.

Bullshit
Coward didn't show jackshit. Boats still kept coming, you just don't know
it.
You can only control it, and that's exactly what we should focus on, without
pissing our
money on little pacific islanders.

Not even possible.

Perfectly possible, if we get the party politics out of it.
We should outlaw major parties using boat people to get elected.

We can do what sees them decide to stop coming.

We can do whatever we can. The boats will keep sneaking in.
It will ge an ongoing struggle for them to get here and we to control it.
And that's the way it's going to be.

Nope, it cost peanuts compared with letting anyone who wants to
show up here.
Bullshit!


Like hell it is.

You wait and watch.
As soon as Krudd wins the election, his focus will be on other things.
Same with the Libs, until the next next election comes closer.

They've stopped coming because PNG is
much worse than where they are coming from.

For ecomomic boat arrivals, yet. But, there are plenty of desparate refugees
among them.

Its fact.

Absolute bullshit. Believing in bullshit ain't gonna fix the issue.
Even libs don't believe in that.
Bob Carr mangled something like that, but that's just empty pre-election
slogans.

So we need to make it clear to them that they will end up in
PNG and be much worse off there than were they came from.

Yes, we do need to make 'it clear', but without pissing and shitting on
ourselves.

Howard did.

Coward didn't do jackshit other than wanking along with Bush.

Fact.




Pigs arse I am.

You should kiss Labor pollys arses for keep you going.

Even sillier.

And the maggots will still refuse to get anywhere near you. ;-)

That fool didn’t do a damned thing for me except provide a
bit of entertainment when he was flushed where he belongs.

Same with the Dud, you watch.

I've already had that when Juliar flushed herself too.

Lets hope you get the same entertainment when Libs get flushed in this
election.

**** all of the human race was actually that stupid.

I know. Only super humans like you are not stupid, right?!!

Guess who has got egg all over its silly little face, yet again.

I've spent a lot more time out of the country than you have, boy.

Impossible. I've spend more time overseas than my half life time, so far.

Unlikely given that I have owned and flown a number of planes, child.

You are bullshitting man.

Wrong, as always.

Where else?! X'mas island?!!

He was gone.

And that's a reward?! Man, you are a pretty evil little old fella. )