Backfeeding with a portable generator - REAL safety concerns???

[John Phillips]

You missed the 'install grounds'. That means the lineman puts a cable about
the size of a heavy-duty car-battery jumper cable across each phase and to
ground/tower/whatever. *Then* they start work. Lineman don't consider the
line dead until they have the grounding cables installed. If the line can
be fed from either end, then two grounding sets are installed. Lineman
works *between* the two grounding sets.

Don't know if *all* utilities require this, but many do consider it a
'fire-able' offense to work without them.

daestrom,

Actually, on high voltage transmission, it is safer to ground the
conductors on the tower being worked rather than the two adjacent
towers. This is because it puts less resistance to ground from the
conductor in the event of an inadvertent tenderization. It also saves
a lot of time.

The ground conductor has to be sized to be capable of conducting the
maximum available short circuit current for a fair amount of time.


Regards,

John Phillips

 

[[email protected]]

My housed is heated with a boiler and baseboard radiators. Hot water
and stove are courtesy of natural gas. In the past, I've heated the
house with the stove-top (oven won't light without power to the
sensor), and I _REALLY_ don't like the idea of an open flame in my
kitchen for several days in a row, especially while sleeping.

The cost of having a professional panel-box job done to meet code is
_OUT_ of the question. I don't have the $$$ and I only need once every
year or two -and only if the power is out for more than 5-6 hours.

I seem to average one 4-14 hour power outage every other year.
Other than that I loose power 3-5 times a year for less than an
hour.

With those kinds of outages, I couldn't justify the cost of an industrial
generator and a professional panel install, so I bought a post y2k returned
Coleman generator at Home Depot and came up with a DIY solution.

I'm cheap, but I wouldn't take the risk of backfeeding the whole house.
I run the 20a 240v output from the generator into my basement. There I
split it into two 120v feeds. One 120v feed powers a twist lock outlet
next to the furnace. The other 120v feed powers four outlets at the top
of the basement stairs.

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on
the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

My fridge, TV, dish network receiver, and sump pump are within 20' of the
four outlets at the top of the basement stairs. The sump pump is normally
powered off an extension cord into a ground fault outlet at the top of the
stairs, and two extra 25' extension cords are hanging on the wall.

Its not an automated solution, but as long as I don't fall down the basement
stairs in the dark, it seems like a safe solution.

 

[Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department Postmaster]

But of course. Working long hours in terrible weather, they deserve a
good meal and warm hotel room.
I can't fault them for that.





As I suspected. A transfer switch isn't necessarily any safer than a
standard main breaker EXCEPT, as pointed out by many others - to
prevent "human error."
Please tell me more about the "fourth ground" procedure you mentioned.
I HAVE decided to do it the correct way.

Thanks Again
Friday

PS: Also,would you elaborate on what you wrote:

"... points of protection must have a "visible break" so neither
enclosed circuit breakers nor transfer switches are considered safe for
personnel protection purposes"

What is meant by a "points of protection"? And are you indeed saying
that transfer switches are no safer (mechanically) than a
standard-issue main breaker in a home panel box?

A real transfer switch is an enclosed multi pole double through switch.
They are built so that it is not possible to throw them all the way
from one set of feeds to the other. You have to throw them to center
off and then to the other supply. When the switch is in the center off
position you can open the cover on the cabinet that is it's enclosure.
You would then see that each pole is a hinged blade that can be
positioned in one contact jaw, centered off, or in the other contact
jaw. Since the pole of the switch cannot be in two places at once and
it is not long enough to connect both contact jaws together it is
extremely difficult to cross connect the two power sources together.

Compare that to the construction of a molded case circuit breaker. It
is impossible to look at the operating mechanism; it can, in fact, fail
closed; it provides only a single gap between the two power sources.

 

[Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department Postmaster]

Great, you're hoping I die for asking questions.
Nice guy.

I didn't say I was going to do it. I said I've seen it done and asked
for intelligent FACTS about the subject.

When was I glib?

NO. I'm hoping that if you undertake to back feed your houses wiring
that if anyone is killed it is you. I never said you should be killed
for asking questions.

As for providing you with the applicable facts in an internet posting it
simply cannot be done. I have been installing and servicing power
systems for most of my adult life. It would take a book to provide you
with all of the sneak current paths I have encountered over those years.

I thought it was pretty glib of you to say that only stupid people would
forget to open the main breaker. Fatigued, drug or alcohol impaired, or
over stressed people who are not stupid can and have made that mistake.
Not all panels have a single main breaker. Some have four or six and
one of those mains would be the dryer outlet while another would be the
stove outlet and so forth. In order to get power into those homes you
would have to close one or more of the main breakers each of which is
connected to the service entry conductors from the service drop or
lateral and thus to the transformer. Federal Pacific two pole breakers,
of an extensive number of production runs, will fail closed after a very
limited number of manual or automatic operations. I have seen other
brands fail closed as well usually from internal corrosion secondary to
water following the service conductors to the main breaker from the
service entry cable.

I am a firefighter and I have responded to a child shocked by a suicide
cord as well as to a tree worker electrocuted by a generator back feed.

The injured child was shocked after a playmate found a double male cord
hanging in the garage and plugged it in. When the child touched the
exposed pin on the other end he received a shock that fortunately did no
permanent harm. He was treated for a small The cord had been made up
by the landlord to bridge out an open circuit in order to avoid the cost
of an electrician on a service call. The circuit continuity had failed
at a push in terminal receptacle. After the tenant had demanded the
repair of the circuit through the city housing office the landlord had
stored the cord for future use.

The back feed death occurred during the 1988 micro burst clean up in the
Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC. A tree trimming crew was clearing
limbs and trees off of power lines so that they could be rebuilt. The
power was out over a very large area and some of the sub stations had
been taken off line and grounded out to facilitate the tree work. When
my engine arrived on scene we were met by the owner of that family
owned, two truck, tree trimming company begging us to get his son down.
He had come in contact with a 13.9 kilovolt line that was energized
through a neighborhood transformer from the only service drop that was
still intact. That drop was to a home were the back feed was coming
from. Another fire fighter used one of our fiberglass pike poles as a
hot stick to open the fuse above the transformer while I pulled the
homes meter. We then brought the tree worker down and attempted CPR and
applied an automated external defibrulator. The tree worker did not
recover and was pronounced dead after nearly an hour of resuscitative
effort at the hospital emergency department less than five minutes from
the scene.

Several utility workers have been killed by back feeds from generators.
A search of the FACE reports on the OSHA web sight will bring up
several examples. In one case, in Georgia, the line had been grounded
out but the lineman had failed to notice that the grounding wire on the
pole had been broken by a motor vehicle. Since that incident occurred
during the clean up after hurricane Hugo the Multi Grounded Neutral
(MGM) that should have provided a perfectly safe ground had been broken
into short segments by falling limbs. With the only grounding electrode
conductor that was still attached to that segment of the MGM damaged
near the base of the pole the protection of the grounding was lost.

I'm a sore looser when it comes to the death of young healthy people who
are killed by the negligent actions of others.

 

[John]

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on

the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

That is a code violation. I don't know why exactly, but it is.

 

[Gunner]

I seem to average one 4-14 hour power outage every other year.
Other than that I loose power 3-5 times a year for less than an
hour.

With those kinds of outages, I couldn't justify the cost of an industrial
generator and a professional panel install, so I bought a post y2k returned
Coleman generator at Home Depot and came up with a DIY solution.

I'm cheap, but I wouldn't take the risk of backfeeding the whole house.
I run the 20a 240v output from the generator into my basement. There I
split it into two 120v feeds. One 120v feed powers a twist lock outlet
next to the furnace. The other 120v feed powers four outlets at the top
of the basement stairs.

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on
the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

My fridge, TV, dish network receiver, and sump pump are within 20' of the
four outlets at the top of the basement stairs. The sump pump is normally
powered off an extension cord into a ground fault outlet at the top of the
stairs, and two extra 25' extension cords are hanging on the wall.

Its not an automated solution, but as long as I don't fall down the basement
stairs in the dark, it seems like a safe solution.

Bravo. Quick, cheap, expedient and most importantly, safe.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

 

[Friday]

Check out:
http://www.mrheater.com
Interesting.
Thanks.

You could rig up a 60 amp sub-panel to run off the generator only,
with a few breakers and outlets, ect.. for your needs. The 60 amp
sub-panel would simply plug into one of the 220 outlets on the genset.

Read up on basic house wiring, you should get the idea.



Well YMMV here. Some surge protectors are good others are shit. It
really depends.

For the most part, you shouldn't have a problem, however Murphy tends
to show up unexpectedly.

I wouldnt run my 4000 dollar LED wide screen TV off of a genset (YMMV)
however an older TV and perhaps a POS computer (old pent Iand IIs and
even 486's can be had for next to nothing at thrift stores).

And since you work at home you should have an older POS computer on
hand as a back-up anyways.

Having back-ups and back-up plans is a prudent survival choice.

n.

Aside from the two-box LAN in use (one mac and one XP box) I must have
at least five old (working) 'putahs around here I could use. I'd hate
to lose one of my primary machines though.

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[Friday]

I seem to average one 4-14 hour power outage every other year.
Other than that I loose power 3-5 times a year for less than an
hour.

With those kinds of outages, I couldn't justify the cost of an industrial
generator and a professional panel install, so I bought a post y2k returned
Coleman generator at Home Depot and came up with a DIY solution.

I'm cheap, but I wouldn't take the risk of backfeeding the whole house.
I run the 20a 240v output from the generator into my basement. There I
split it into two 120v feeds. One 120v feed powers a twist lock outlet
next to the furnace. The other 120v feed powers four outlets at the top
of the basement stairs.

I always keep plenty of fresh flashlight batteries and a few spare
bulbs on hand.

PLUS, I have this neat little flashlight that doesnt use batteries or
bulbs. Magnets charge a capacitor which lights up an LED. Supposed to
be good for several HUNDRED thousand hours.
I just did something similar with the furnace yesterday (split the main
line and put in male and female plugs), Tested it and it works fine.
For everything else, extension cords will do the job.

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on
the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

My fridge, TV, dish network receiver, and sump pump are within 20' of the
four outlets at the top of the basement stairs. The sump pump is normally
powered off an extension cord into a ground fault outlet at the top of the
stairs, and two extra 25' extension cords are hanging on the wall.

Its not an automated solution, but as long as I don't fall down the basement
stairs in the dark, it seems like a safe solution.

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[Friday]

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on
the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

That is a code violation. I don't know why exactly, but it is.
[/QUOTE]
The guy fronm the power compnay was here yesterday doing some other
work and he looked at it and said it was fine.
<Shrug>
Of course he's not an inspector.
Wonder why that would be against code.
Local code?

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[Beachcomber]

That is a code violation. I don't know why exactly, but it is.

I don't claim to be a NEC code expert, but last time I checked, a
furnace was considered a "stationary appliance" (like a dishwasher)
and thus must accordingly be connected with a hard-wired connection.

Lots of furnaces are wired to accept 240 V, so a 120 V. twist lock
plug would be illegal in these cases.

Does anyone know of a rule that would allow an exception?

Beachcomber

 

[John]

You should be more specific when you are throwing around words like "code
violation".
It is just a sign that you don't have a clue.

There is nothing wrong with a blower motor and the thermostat being cord and
plug connected.

ANSI Standard Z21.47 does not allow cord and plug connections for gas
furnaces.
NEC 400.7(A)(8) and 422.16.(A) allow flexible cord only on appliances
specifically intended for them, and forbid them on appliances that cannot be
readily moved.

Is that specific enough. No, it is not a sign that I don't have a clue; it
simply means that knowledgable people don't need the references, and others
don't want them. I guess you fall into the class of ignorant people who
don't even know it.

 

[Friday]

I don't claim to be a NEC code expert, but last time I checked, a
furnace was considered a "stationary appliance" (like a dishwasher)
and thus must accordingly be connected with a hard-wired connection.

Lots of furnaces are wired to accept 240 V, so a 120 V. twist lock
plug would be illegal in these cases.

Does anyone know of a rule that would allow an exception?

Beachcomber

How about the rule of survival; i.e.: not freezing to death.

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[John]

Apology accepted.
As I said in the first post, I really don't understand why it is forbidden;
it just is.
Presumably it is so you can't accidentally leave it unplugged, but you can
just as easily leave it turned off or with breaker open.

 

[Louis Bybee]

It is also possible to receive special consideration for certain cases from
the AHJ for using a cord and plug connection for fixed equipment that would
normally require a hard wire connection.

I have never seen it allowed in a residential application, but I have
frequently seen it in industrial situations where equipment is fed from bus
duct overhead, and while the equipment is fastened to the floor it is
regrouped occasionally for production reasons, moved out for repair, or
power feeds are disconnected to allow other oversize equipment to be moved
about.

Louis--
*********************************************
Remove the two fish in address to respond

 

[Stormin Mormon]

The problem with building idiot resistant gadgets (like the safety grip
handles on lawn mowers) is that we keep getting better idoits. Like folks
who wire down safety handles.

You can do what I did: Anything you think you might want on the generator,
wire it in with extension cords and plugs. Refrig, couple lights, computer,
etc.

I did have to do some wiring for the furnace, had to put a cord and plug on
the furnace, and wire a socket. I know it's not code, but it's been
perfectly safe. Better than the last nine years I lived here, I didn't even
see that the guy who put in my furnace didn't use a romex connector. The
14/2 was rubbing on the punch out.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com

But SERIOUSLY... as long as I don't forget to open the main breaker
before hooking up to the generator and disconnecting the generator
before closing the main breaker (and I WON'T forget), what are the real
dangers to backfeeding???

That you, or someone WILL forget to open that breaker and kill
someone. At which point the heavens will open and your life (and the
wife and kids of the dead people) will be turned to shit, now and
forever amen.

Not to mention if the power comes on, and you happen to still be
connected..the transformer on the pole explodes milliseconds after
your genset turns into a small but lethal fireball.

Go to Home Depot, etc and buy a transfer switch. They are commonly
available now for less than $200. You can do it yourself if you are
handy.

Oh..and never check for gas leaks or the level in your fuel tank with
a lit match. Based on your post..I had to add that, in order to save
your life or the life of someone else, as it appears you dont think
very far ahead. Shrug.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

 

[Stormin Mormon]

I know it is -- I also don't know why it's in the code. My refrig, toaster,
hair dryer, and chicken plucker all have plugs.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com

I put my furnace on a 120v twist lock plug and put a twist lock outlet on
the existing furnace circuit. In the event of a power outage I simply
unplug the furnace from the grid and plug it into the generator plug.

That is a code violation. I don't know why exactly, but it is.

 

[Friday]

The problem with building idiot resistant gadgets (like the safety grip
handles on lawn mowers) is that we keep getting better idoits. Like folks
who wire down safety handles.

You can do what I did: Anything you think you might want on the generator,
wire it in with extension cords and plugs. Refrig, couple lights, computer,
etc.

I did have to do some wiring for the furnace, had to put a cord and plug on
the furnace, and wire a socket. I know it's not code, but it's been
perfectly safe. Better than the last nine years I lived here, I didn't even
see that the guy who put in my furnace didn't use a romex connector. The
14/2 was rubbing on the punch out.

Any problems running your cmputer(s) off the generator?
I've read so many articles insisting this is a no-no (for any sensitive
electronics, even TVs).

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[Nick Hull]

I don't claim to be a NEC code expert, but last time I checked, a
furnace was considered a "stationary appliance" (like a dishwasher)
and thus must accordingly be connected with a hard-wired connection.

Lots of furnaces are wired to accept 240 V, so a 120 V. twist lock
plug would be illegal in these cases.

Does anyone know of a rule that would allow an exception?

It should meet code IF you put wheels on the furnace; then it cannot be
considered stationary.

 

[Friday]

sinusoidal voltage

"sinusoidal voltage"??????

--
#####################################
"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will
be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.
If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. What country before ever existed a century & a
half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their
rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
-- Thomas Jefferson
#####################################

 

[Tom Quackenbush]

Strabo wrote:

This is exactly what the little honda 1K and 2K generators do
now. Generator feeding DC to an inverter. Quiet, light, and very
clean power. Pricey but well worth it. I just wish that they made
a larger size one.

Honda EU3000is:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu3000is

Two EU2000i generators can be paralleled to double the output. I'm
not sure about the EU3000is.

R,
Tom Q.