Attorney generals trying to shut down usenet?

[James Arthur]

James Arthur wrote:

So did you marry her?

Nah. Youth is wasted on the young, isn't it?

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Jim Yanik]

They don't even think that... they think everyone should have a
"college degree," but they never intended for people to have to learn
as much as the average college student did some 40+ years ago to get
it. Hence you now have college getting dumbed down to the point where
-- at least in engineering -- a master's degree might almost be
equivalent to a bachelor's degree back then.

I still blame the business world to some extent, though -- big
companies want people with four-year degrees just to work as
receptionists, technical writers, salespeople, etc.? Please.

Enterprise *auto rental* only hires people who have college degrees.
Ridiculous.

 

[Jim Yanik]

Rich Grise wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:02:45 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

Same as when I asked here why does the midwest not know how to
build a proper levee ;-)
They learned from Nawlins?
Which reminds me, where are all the Katrina race-conspiracy
theorists these days ?

I don't know, but the way I understand it, when white people went
looting, they called it "foraging", but when the black people went
foraging, they called it "looting". >:-[

Whatever color, heisting a plasma TV isn't foraging. "Heist" sounds
judgmental though, so I suppose p/c demands we call it something else.

How 'bout "undocumented shopping" ?

Cheers,
James Arthur

One "forages" for necessities like food,water,and clothing,but taking TVs
and other unnecessary valuables is plain looting. Shoot them on sight.

 

[James Arthur]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out you don't know what you are
talking about.

Well then, set me right.

Are teachers not complaining? I've heard them doing it.

Are teachers not teaching to the tests? I've seen any number
on PBS saying they were.

QA sample? Where did you get that nonsense? Every student is tested.

The tests sample the students' knowledge.

OK, I'm convinced. You don't know what you are talking about.

Okay, I've gleaned the above from PBS coverage and test-taking
kids, not first-hand. By all means, enlighten me.

Best,
James Arthur

 

[Jim Yanik]

I consider their service one of the best. I very much appreciate the
personalized treatment.

...Jim Thompson

which has nothing to do with degree of education.

I use them myself.(they are the only one close to my home.)

 

[James Arthur]

James Arthur wrote:
MooseFET wrote:
MooseFET wrote:
MooseFET wrote:
<snip>

I would say that it is one of your delusions. It is always the
republicans that want to remove courses other than reading and writing
and put in tests that are multiple choice.
Tests are not the problem--that's an excuse.
Multiple choice questions often are a problem. You have to be terminally
stupid to score less than 20% in a five way multiple choice test.

He's talking about a quality-assurance testing program
passed under Mr. Bush "No Child Left Behind," NCLB.

Kids are basically sample-tested to make sure they're
learning.

Teachers blame NCLB for wrecking the schools. Everything
was fine before, you see, so if results are rock-bottom abysmal
it can't be their fault...must be the tests. Those slips
of paper with the five fill-in bubbles per question, erasing
young minds.

So many are gaming the system, teaching nothing BUT
the tests. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they
got and shared advance copies.

I disagree with that. Note that I said "multiple choice". Teaching
to the multiple choice test has removed what little real education was
left.
That's a corruption, of and by, and from the teachers.

The idea of testing is to make sure kids have learned, as
gaged by a representative sampling of the kids' knowledge.

"Teaching to the test" is gaming the system, trying to outwit,
to bias the outcome, to subvert its purpose. It's cheating.
That is a bit too strong. If the test is so weak that it is amenable to
simple rote training then it is a clear measurement fault.

There is an old maxim. What you measure gets controlled and the
corollary is that everything else goes to the wall.

As above, it's supposed to be a Q.A. sample, and for
a very worthy, important goal.

Should we ship electronics unpopulated save for the
portions we know Q.A. checks?

The manipulators are to blame, not the tests.

People of integrity--like teachers once were and should
be--don't do that.
And if their careers and bonuses depend on getting the best out of their
class - what then? Hedge fund managers see nothing wrong with shorting a
weak bank to deliberately drive its share price down for a quick profit
or speculating on oil futures to drive them ever higher...

a) We expect better from teachers,
b) the existence of the test in no way compels or
requires cheating. They're simple, basic competence
tests. Kids should learn that material normally as
part of any competent instruction.

Results are compared between schools. If the tests
are flawed, the comparisons make them fair.

c) careers aren't ruined over the results--teachers can't
be fired.

Big bonus and career progression or integrity you choose.

No, that's not it. No big incentives, nor can teachers
ever really be penalized for poor performance.[1] It's
an attempt to assess, then improve schools.

[1] Of course the worst dullards among them rightly
afraid being exposed, which might change that.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Arizona's "educators" utilize a test they themselves made up...

http://www.ade.az.gov/standards/aims/ :-(

...Jim Thompson

Exactly. Please, please look at the reading section of this HIGH
SCHOOL final test, then explain to me again how it's burdensome,
how its impossible standards & crushing expectations are ruining
our schools requiring radical changes in instruction, etc.:

http://www.ade.az.gov/standards/AIMS/SampleTests/HSSampleTestFinal.pdf

1. In paragraph 1, what does the word impoverished mean?
A Illiterate
B sick
C poor
D disabled


"Dear Mr. Whitman:
I am writing to thank you for allowing Maria..."

5. What is the purpose of this letter?
A to request information
B to express appreciation
C to offer assistance
D to clarify objectives


It's perfectly basic, reasonable, ordinary stuff. Cry me a river.

Thanks Jim.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

You may find this data interesting:

http://www.epi.org/books/rethinking_hs_grad_rates/rethinking_hs_grad_rates-FULL_TEXT.pdf

Thanks Joseph. I know the graduation rates are controversial.
Which is amazing.

They don't even know how many students graduate.

James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/06/06/rove_katrina/index.html

Excellent! That's the stuff!

Thanks,
James Arthur

 

[JosephKK]

[snip]

You may find this data interesting:

http://www.epi.org/books/rethinking_hs_grad_rates/rethinking_hs_grad_rates-FULL_TEXT.pdf

When I was growing up, in WV, we had very near 100% because, back
then, they realized one mold doesn't fit all, so my high school was...

1/3 academic... college-bound

1/3 business... secretaries, clerks, small store management, etc.

1/3 trade school... machine shops, automotive and aircraft, etc.

Now the dorks think everyone should go to college :-(

...Jim Thompson

That reminds me of the information economy" types that forget that
they often wear clothes and drive cars and live in houses and such.
And just how much of our ordinary lives are made more convenient by
the work of clerks, salespersons, laborers, assembly line workers,
etc., I have done enough of these things to have permanent respect.

 

[JosephKK]

Thanks Joseph. I know the graduation rates are controversial.
Which is amazing.

They don't even know how many students graduate.

James Arthur

Pleasure and a treasure to be of help.

 

[JosephKK]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:54:08 GMT, James Arthur

[snip]

Punishment delayed and severe is way less effective than
one that's milder, but swift and sure. Any delay between
behavior and conditioning drastically reduces the
conditioning's effect.

[snip]

Only with animals... children know and remember what they did.

So do animals. When our Rottie was young and a digger/chewer he
sometimes had that "Oh s..t!" expression in his eyes when we came home.
That plus a tucked tail and you could almost bet you'd find some chewed
up piece somewhere.

Thanks, i did not have such a clear example to post to make it plain.

 

[Joerg]

Martin Brown wrote:

[...]

Strangely I was very good at written French grammar at school but could
never master the spoken language adequately due to a regional accent.

The only real way to learn it is to live in France or Quebec for a few
years. I once interviewed a sales V.P. When he found out I spoke German
he wanted to do the interview in German just for fun. So here he was, an
American who spoke German with a thick French accent.

Many of the more able Dutch students are at least trilingual and fluent.

That is because of, you guessed it, immersion. NL/BE is too small a
market to voice-over movies so they don't. All you get is subtitles so
they almost automagically learn the languages.

I learned English in similar fashion. From ham radio and from, gasp,
"All in the Family". So an attorney was an attoinee. Then I had a
teacher from Kentucky, followed by one from Lousiana. Later I worked in
Scotland ...

[...]

 

[JosephKK]

Why do you say that? If he is also very smart then he may have found a
way to overcome the difficulty. What you described uncovering one letter
at a time is one way of breaking the degeneracy if he sees words as just
streams of letters in no particular order.

So to him "raw" and "war" are very hard to distinguish (for example)

I find it hard to believe that reading whole words was the root cause of
his problems. Although bad teaching might have played its part.

I find it equally boggling that anyone could get to college or even
obtain exam qualifications without being able to read.

Even stranger. How did he pass the exams?


Reseachers into perceptual problems or gifts are interested in people
who are highly intelligent and can articulate their problems with
reading or writing. Especially interesting are the ones that have
overcome them or also show a spectacular ability in some other field.

It could just be really bad teaching. I suppose.

Regards,
Martin Brown

I have posted previously about the oriental "bright twit" that gave
us "whole word / whole language" ideographic crap to the ruin of
phonetics. BTW phonetics is English is difficult because of having
multiple linguistic / phonetic roots.

 

[JosephKK]

[snip]

You may find this data interesting:

http://www.epi.org/books/rethinking_hs_grad_rates/rethinking_hs_grad_rates-FULL_TEXT.pdf


When I was growing up, in WV, we had very near 100% because, back
then, they realized one mold doesn't fit all, so my high school was...

1/3 academic... college-bound

1/3 business... secretaries, clerks, small store management, etc.

1/3 trade school... machine shops, automotive and aircraft, etc.

Now the dorks think everyone should go to college :-(

...Jim Thompson

That reminds me of the information economy" types that forget that
they often wear clothes and drive cars and live in houses and such.
And just how much of our ordinary lives are made more convenient by
the work of clerks, salespersons, laborers, assembly line workers,
etc., I have done enough of these things to have permanent respect.

Yep. I pumped gas, worked in a TV repair shop, and washed dishes in a
cafeteria, before graduating up to being a technician ;-)

A goodly portion of my income goes to pay for "services": lawn and
tree maintenance, swimming pool maintenance, aquarium maintenance, car
wash, car and truck maintenance/service, laundry/shirts, barber,
beautician (for wife , manicure (for wife , restaurants, movies.

Then there's clerks of all kinds, bank tellers, bus drivers, pilots,
flight "attendants", cab drivers, train and subway operators, elevator
operators, Sky Caps, rental car agents...

And government employees :-(

On and on and on...

I'm sure I missed something ;-)

None of these need a college degree.
Yet.


Then there's Slowman, hangs out at home and lives off his wife... he
didn't need any degrees either ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Oh, he actually has a PhD; i have verified it. Bill is a classic
example of overeducated idiot. And i am sure that if you really think
about it, you came across them at MIT as well.

 

[YD]

Anybody who gets paid with tax money should be prohibited from unionizing.

Thanks,
Rich

But it takes energy, thus money, to stay ionized.

- YD.

 

[James Arthur]

Why do you say that?

From working with him and seeing how he handles
other such problems.

If he is also very smart then he may have found a
way to overcome the difficulty. What you described uncovering one letter
at a time is one way of breaking the degeneracy if he sees words as just
streams of letters in no particular order.

So to him "raw" and "war" are very hard to distinguish (for example)

No, he'd never confuse those. Reading aloud he
might've misread "speciously" as "specifically."
I.e, he was doing exactly what he' d been
taught, identifying words by overall appearance:
length, shape, and a few key letters.

Like hashing, except they didn't consider collisions.

Works fine for a beginner's limited vocabulary, just not later.

I find it hard to believe that reading whole words was the root cause of
his problems. Although bad teaching might have played its part.



I find it equally boggling that anyone could get to college or even
obtain exam qualifications without being able to read.

I didn't mean wholly illiterate, just not nearly up to standards.

Even stranger. How did he pass the exams?

Did you see the example Jim provided?

(An understatement, actually--the kid's top-notch, an inspiration, an
honor and a pleasure to know.)

Reseachers into perceptual problems or gifts are interested in people
who are highly intelligent and can articulate their problems with
reading or writing. Especially interesting are the ones that have
overcome them or also show a spectacular ability in some other field.

It could just be really bad teaching. I suppose.

Not even bad teaching, IMHO, just untested procedures
being substituted for tried-and-true. They shouldn't do that.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:50:44 +0000, James Arthur wrote:

...


Unionized.

Thanks,
Rich

Yeah, and you know what? Unions are also in the
best position to set things right.

How? Set, support, and enforce high standards of
excellence within their ranks.

Outsiders can't possibly impose success from
without; it has to come from within.

If the teachers' unions would set their minds to
ensuring better schools, we'd have them.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Joerg]

Yeah, and you know what? Unions are also in the
best position to set things right.

How? Set, support, and enforce high standards of
excellence within their ranks.

ROFL!


Outsiders can't possibly impose success from
without; it has to come from within.

If the teachers' unions would set their minds to
ensuring better schools, we'd have them.

But they don't. Just one example:
http://www.caltax.org/member/digest...raub-TeacherUnionFightsSacramentoUnion.01.htm

FWIW, this is an author who IMHO isn't usually ranting against unions
but this episode was so egregious that he probably couldn't hold back
either. This case was so disgusting that it has caused me to lose all
respect for the teachers union. Sorry for the harsh words but that's how
it is.

 

[krw]

Yeah, and you know what? Unions are also in the
best position to set things right.
Nonsense.

How? Set, support, and enforce high standards of
excellence within their ranks.

Why? Excellence is not one of their interests.

Outsiders can't possibly impose success from
without; it has to come from within.

No, outsiders are the only ones who can. A tax revolt for starters.

If the teachers' unions would set their minds to
ensuring better schools, we'd have them.

If pigs set their mind to flying, something more useful might get
done.

 

[JosephKK]

From working with him and seeing how he handles
other such problems.


No, he'd never confuse those. Reading aloud he
might've misread "speciously" as "specifically."
I.e, he was doing exactly what he' d been
taught, identifying words by overall appearance:
length, shape, and a few key letters.

Like hashing, except they didn't consider collisions.

Works fine for a beginner's limited vocabulary, just not later.


I didn't mean wholly illiterate, just not nearly up to standards.


Did you see the example Jim provided?


(An understatement, actually--the kid's top-notch, an inspiration, an
honor and a pleasure to know.)


Not even bad teaching, IMHO, just untested procedures
being substituted for tried-and-true. They shouldn't do that.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Actually, the false (ideographic orientated) methods lasted just long
enough to destroy the proven methods of phonics and phonetics. And
the newbies are consistently bewildered by the problem of multiple
linguistic roots which they are unaware of. Thus they cannot "reboot"
to the tried and true.