Attorney generals trying to shut down usenet?

[MooseFET]

On Jun 15, 2:18 pm, Jim Thompson
[....]

The USA is doomed. Stupidity has taken over.
Leftist weenies :-(
Rightist ass-wipes more likely.
At least we're not queer ;-)

Oh oh, a republican just said he's not queer. You know what that
means. *Not that there's anything wrong with it* :>

Doesn't bother me a bit if you want to be a queer ;-)

That makes twice. Any time a republican mentions it 3 times, they
turn out to be gay.

 

[MooseFET]

No, I am not and do not. I simply don't notice any impact.

Maybe you really are and just don't know it. You may even be a Neocon
and not actually be aware of it.

A quick test is to see if you realize that both "Fox News" and Rush
Limbaugh are oxymorons. If you don't see why that is true, you just
might be a Neocon.

I think I could make a nice Foxworthesk list of "You might be a
Neocon" jokes if I worked at it.

Agreed, and that offends me, but that's only a few, not the many.

There are *way* too many.

It's a sin in my eyes because it violates separation of church and state.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are among those who see it from the side of
letting the state get into religion.

That problem arises because they're compelled to send their kids to
government schools.

In most states, they are only required to pay for the schools not to
use them. They are free to send their kids to private schools. Most
states also allow home schooling.

The root of the problem is not that they are required to send their
kids anywhere. Basically the root of the problem is that they are
loony.

It doesn't matter if it's effective. People have a right to
teach their kids their particular value systems, which might
include not teaching certain things at all.

Yes but they have no right to control what happens in a public
school. They can do like my muslim friend and send their kids to
their own school if they want to keep them ignorant of some things.
In the case of my friend it was the depiction of people that was part
of the issue. To them all pictures of living things are a sin.

I don't know why schools are involved in this. It's a
parent's job, not the schools'. Schools should first master
their own business: teaching math and reading and such.

Sex and how to balance a check book come under the "and such".

In my time we learned the basics in health class, to the extent it
was a health concern, and concerned parents' kids could opt out.
None did.

I think the opt out idea is fine, so long as the class is still taught
for those who don't.

(Of course my parents got me a book when I was 5 explaining the
whole business. I read it, I understood it, I just couldn't imagine
why on earth anyone would want to do that!)

I was quite a bit older when the "birds and the bees" talk was had.
If I had to put a number on it, 9 or 10 would be about where I'd
guess. I didn't interrupt with corrections.

I understand that's your impression. Have any current examples of how
your personal liberties have been affected?

Yes,

More later. The wife just went by with some "frozen desert product"
as shee called it.

 

[JeffM]

[...]they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy"
to suggest that the opinions of a few loons
should be given equal weight
to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

....or, more importantly, given equal weight to the Scientific Method
which quickly disassembles "the controversy".

That problem arises because
they're compelled to send their kids to government schools.

The reason for public schools
is to produce useful members of society.
If you don't want to be a member of *this* society, find another.

Alternatively, teach your own kids
--of course, you will have to demonstrate competency
to produce the same kind of useful educated adults
that our post-industrial society needs,
as the public schools are intended to do.

....and to go to the heart of your argumentative point,
just because a parent believes that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 4,
does NOT give his kid the privilege to put an incorrect answer
on his test and expect to have it graded as correct.

He doesn't get to skip math class either
--even if his parent thinks it's the Devil's tool.

Now, if anti-mathematics is obviously not acceptable,
explain how the anti-science hocus-pocus is acceptable.

The answer to things you disagree with is NOT *less* discussion.
State your arguments against the points you think are bogus
--to your kid and to the world at large.
If he finds more truth in that than what he gets elsewhere,
so be it--but Fahrenheit 451 is NOT the answer.
(Again: Reference the Sleeping Beauty story.)

[...]the "abstinence only education"
is about as effective at reducing the rates of having sex
as the movie "reefer madness" was at reducing the rate of drug use.

I don't know why schools are involved in this.

It's about teaching future members of society how their bodies work
such that they know what their hearts do and livers do
--but you're saying they shouldn't know the function of ALL parts.

The process of producing offspring is part of the life sciences.
How NOT to produce offspring at the wrong time
(and how not to get a disease in the process)
is useful knowledge for members of society.

This goes back to my Sleeping Beauty analogy.
There is NO circumstance where ignorance is better than knowledge.
It also goes to my 2 + 2 point:
Do we assure that no quotients will work out to 666?
It gets pretty silly really quickly.

It's a parent's job, not the schools'.

Getting back to my point about certifying parents as teachers,
I saw a demonstration where they gave parents the sex-ed test
--and most FLUNKED. Few would have made good tutors.

we learned the basics in health class
[...]concerned parents' kids could opt out

We're seeing what the opt-out nonsense gets us
with the idiots who won't vaccinate their kids.
Choose to be a member of this society or find another.
Being a member comes with obligations.

 

[Jim Yanik]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET

On Jun 15, 2:18 pm, Jim Thompson
[....]
The USA is doomed. Stupidity has taken over.

Leftist weenies :-(

Rightist ass-wipes more likely.

At least we're not queer ;-)

Oh oh, a republican just said he's not queer. You know what that
means. *Not that there's anything wrong with it* :>

Doesn't bother me a bit if you want to be a queer ;-)

They have very high rates of serious,incurable diseases,at least the
homo males.
Wait until they win the "right" to donate blood and the supply becomes
a high AIDS risk. Homos have been pushing for that,FYI.

I "banked" my own blood for my hip replacement surgery, but didn't
need any of it... my hip surgeon is ranked one of the best.

Fine for PLANNED operations,but for emergencies,particularly away from your
home area,you get whatever's in their bank.Screening doesn't always catch
bad blood,particularly if the donor has just recently been infected and
hasn't developed enough antibodies yet.
IIRC,donated blood has a shelf life,too,so it will not always be around for
you to use in an emergency.

IMO,this is one major reason why homos should not be in the military;in
combat situations,you don't know who you might be getting a blood transfer
from,or whose blood you just got splattered with.

 

[MooseFET]

[...]they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy"
to suggest that the opinions of a few loons
should be given equal weight
to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

...or, more importantly, given equal weight to the Scientific Method
which quickly disassembles "the controversy".

The problem is that on many subjects children don't have time to fully
explore the issues. It takes time to do the full explanation so often
we have to live with telling them "we know XXX is true". Those who
choose to become scientists may go back and look at it but most will
just go on with their lives.

A simple example of this sort of case is "don't plug the toaster and
the electric frying pan into the same outlet because that doesn't
work". If you are making breakfast, you don't have time to stop to
explain about resistance and power etc.

We have the same situation when it comes to things like antibiotic
resistance in diseases. We don't have time to give a person the full
education about the evolution of bacteria so we have to say "take all
the pills even if you feel better" and have them believe you about it
being the best action to take.

The reason for public schools
is to produce useful members of society.
If you don't want to be a member of *this* society, find another.

Alternatively, teach your own kids
--of course, you will have to demonstrate competency
to produce the same kind of useful educated adults
that our post-industrial society needs,
as the public schools are intended to do.

There are private schools too. Don't leave them out of the
discussion.

...and to go to the heart of your argumentative point,
just because a parent believes that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 4,
does NOT give his kid the privilege to put an incorrect answer
on his test and expect to have it graded as correct.

He doesn't get to skip math class either
--even if his parent thinks it's the Devil's tool.

It is the devil's tool. Did you know that 666/212 is almost exactly
PI? What more proof do you need?

Now, if anti-mathematics is obviously not acceptable,
explain how the anti-science hocus-pocus is acceptable.

The answer to things you disagree with is NOT *less* discussion.
State your arguments against the points you think are bogus
--to your kid and to the world at large.
If he finds more truth in that than what he gets elsewhere,
so be it--but Fahrenheit 451 is NOT the answer.
(Again: Reference the Sleeping Beauty story.)

[...]the "abstinence only education"
is about as effective at reducing the rates of having sex
as the movie "reefer madness" was at reducing the rate of drug use.

I don't know why schools are involved in this.

It's about teaching future members of society how their bodies work
such that they know what their hearts do and livers do
--but you're saying they shouldn't know the function of ALL parts.

The process of producing offspring is part of the life sciences.
How NOT to produce offspring at the wrong time
(and how not to get a disease in the process)
is useful knowledge for members of society.

This goes back to my Sleeping Beauty analogy.
There is NO circumstance where ignorance is better than knowledge.
It also goes to my 2 + 2 point:
Do we assure that no quotients will work out to 666?
It gets pretty silly really quickly.

It's a parent's job, not the schools'.

Getting back to my point about certifying parents as teachers,
I saw a demonstration where they gave parents the sex-ed test
--and most FLUNKED. Few would have made good tutors.

we learned the basics in health class
[...]concerned parents' kids could opt out

We're seeing what the opt-out nonsense gets us
with the idiots who won't vaccinate their kids.
Choose to be a member of this society or find another.
Being a member comes with obligations.

 

[Jim Yanik]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET

[snip]

Maybe you really are and just don't know it. You may even be a Neocon
and not actually be aware of it.

A quick test is to see if you realize that both "Fox News" and Rush
Limbaugh are oxymorons.

I agree with you on Rush, but you clearly don't watch (or listen to)
Fox News.

If you don't see why that is true, you just
might be a Neocon.

I think I could make a nice Foxworthesk list of "You might be a
Neocon" jokes if I worked at it.

Won't you have a problem with no one laughing ?

[snip]

...Jim Thompson

have you ever read any of Rush's -brother's- work?
David Limbaugh,a frequent NRO columnist. Good stuff.

 

[JeffM]

For example, the anti-evolution people
just don't want evolution taught to their kids

MooseFET wrote:
[...]they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy"
to suggest that the opinions of a few loons
should be given equal weight
to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

...or, more importantly, given equal weight to the Scientific Method
which quickly disassembles "the controversy".

The problem is that on many subjects
children don't have time to fully explore the issues.
It takes time to do the full explanation
so often we have to live with telling them "we know XXX is true".

....BUT it's the Scientific Method that undergirds this stuff.
It's IMPORTANT that they understand (unlike dogma)
**we're not just pulling this stuff out of our asses**
--that is, there's A METHOD we use to derive these databases
AND that it's repeatable AND (funds permitting)
that THEY can check it for themselves.

....AND that it's a SELF-CORRECTING process
which (unlike the medieval monks who just copied stuff
without understanding the Latin texts they were duplicating)
is open to examination by the most humble of humans
AND is open to challenge **IF** they show up with the goods.

Before a kid is graduated from 6th grade,
he should be required to understand the steps in the process.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Scie....the.Hypothesis+Analyze+Data+Draw.Conclusions

Kids are natural scientists.
It's when their curiosity is squashed by unquestionable dogma
that their minds switch off and we're left with
another generation of I-don't-WANT-to know-the-truth types.

 

[Richard The Dreaded Libertarian]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html

:"N.Y. attorney general forces ISPs to curb Usenet access"
:
:Cuomo announced[...]that Verizon Communications, Time Warner Cable, and
:Sprint would
:"shut down major sources of online child pornography." [. . .]
:Time Warner Cable said it will cease to offer customers access to any
:Usenet newsgroups,
:a decision that will affect customers nationwide.
:
It's not clear if they will just take their own NNTP servers offline or
will if they will block Port 119.

:Sprint is cutting off the alt.* hierarchy, Usenet's largest[...]
:
:A Verizon spokesman said he didn't know details, saying "newsgroups that
:deal with scientific endeavors" will stick around but admitted that
:all of the alt.* hierarchy could be toast.
:
Between the OMG-kiddie-porn hand-wringers and Google Groups (whatever
their motives are), Usenet sure has been taking a beating.

:The Internet service providers should not be blocking whole sections of
:the Internet, all Usenet groups said Barry Steinhardt,
:director of the ACLU's technology and liberty program.
:
aka "The Voice of Sanity".

:"That's taking a sledgehammer to an ant."
:
The USA is doomed. Stupidity has taken over.

Leftist weenies :-(

Feh. The neocons are just as stupid, and more dangerous.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[JeffM]

JeffM wrote: :: ...Scientific Method...
Accomplished quite nicely by our unionized public school system.

8-(
Luckily, there are some shining stars.
My 7th grade science teacher let my curiosity just gallop
and it set a course for me to ask *Why?* a lot more.
(A course that wasn't so nurtured by my parents who were Catholic.
That Daddy was a military officer wasn't any incentive either.)
I think it was in the shadow of the Scopes "Monkey Trial " (1925)
that many schools resolved not to teach the Scientific Method
and instead established the mantra of
*memorize these data points and don't ask where they came from*.

Fundies get nervous when their dogma is exposed to light.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:en.wikipedia.org+inherit-the-wind

 

[Rich Grise]

Accomplished quite nicely by our unionized public school system.

Anybody who gets paid with tax money should be prohibited from unionizing.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[JeffM]

I have no problem with them unionizing,
but they should be prohibited from striking,
as Federal employees are.

Remember how Reagan

aka **the former head of the Screen Actors' Guild**.
(Reminds me of Clarence Thomas and Affirmative Action.)

fired the smart-ass air traffic controllers
who went on strike when he was in office?

Took the wind out of their sails just beautifully,
the miserable bastards!

Those chickens are coming home to roost.

With WAVES of folks who were all hired at the same time
now up for retirement, there are holes in the ATC system,
as replacements aren't coming along to fill the gaps.

Thanks, Ronnie (you miserable bastard).

 

[James Arthur]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET

On Jun 15, 2:18 pm, Jim Thompson
[....]
The USA is doomed. Stupidity has taken over.
Leftist weenies :-(
Rightist ass-wipes more likely.
At least we're not queer ;-)
Oh oh, a republican just said he's not queer. You know what that
means. *Not that there's anything wrong with it* :>
Doesn't bother me a bit if you want to be a queer ;-)
They have very high rates of serious,incurable diseases,at least the
homo males.
Wait until they win the "right" to donate blood and the supply becomes
a high AIDS risk. Homos have been pushing for that,FYI.

I "banked" my own blood for my hip replacement surgery, but didn't
need any of it... my hip surgeon is ranked one of the best.

Fine for PLANNED operations,but for emergencies,particularly away from your
home area,you get whatever's in their bank.Screening doesn't always catch
bad blood,particularly if the donor has just recently been infected and
hasn't developed enough antibodies yet.
IIRC,donated blood has a shelf life,too,so it will not always be around for
you to use in an emergency.

IMO,this is one major reason why homos should not be in the military;in
combat situations,you don't know who you might be getting a blood transfer
from,or whose blood you just got splattered with.

High-risk people of all sorts are prohibited from giving blood;
Heck, even UK'ers are banned as are Africans, and people who've
slept with Africans. (I donate. The forms are lengthy.)

And U.S. troops are HIV-free, 100% tested, and medically discharged
if they get it (for the reasons you mention).

So I don't see any problem here, either with the blood supply, or gays
in the military.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

The reason for public schools
is to produce useful members of society.

No, it's to support the teacher's unions whilst they churn out
illiterate, ignorant, droids, devoid of critical thought,
pre-programmed to consume. But I digress.

If you don't want to be a member of *this* society, find another.

Again, you're intolerant. That's not liberal.

Alternatively, teach your own kids
--of course, you will have to demonstrate competency
to produce the same kind of useful educated adults
that our post-industrial society needs,
as the public schools are intended to do.

Again, you demand. Parents who home-school need to be
certified as competent? By whom? By what authority?

Would you exempt them from public school taxes, or,
by force, make them pay for public schools they don't use?
Isn't that imposing on their liberty in a most egregious
way?

You're passing a moral judgement here: you'd decide (or
have government decide) which parents are fit to raise
their own kids. That's monstrous. Can't you see that?

It defies imagination that any parent so motivated could
be worse than the public schools, even if they tried.

And it's not in the public interest to deny them. The
home-schoolers I've known have all been _lightyears_
ahead of their public (or private) school counterparts.

Best regards,
James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

...and to go to the heart of your argumentative point,
just because a parent believes that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 4,
does NOT give his kid the privilege to put an incorrect answer
on his test and expect to have it graded as correct.

I never said any such stupid thing.

He doesn't get to skip math class either
--even if his parent thinks it's the Devil's tool.

The kids who skip class already do so without
consequence. Public schools are funded by the daily
body count; they're complicit in down-playing truancy,
keeping bogus attendance records to maximize their
funding.

These, however, are not the few religious-minded kids
you've obsessively fixated on. No, the kids who skip, and
fail, and falter in life are inner-city kids. The one who
need schooling most. And public schools let them. And
that's a crime.

Now, if anti-mathematics is obviously not acceptable,
explain how the anti-science hocus-pocus is acceptable.

The answer to things you disagree with is NOT *less* discussion.
State your arguments against the points you think are bogus
--to your kid and to the world at large.
If he finds more truth in that than what he gets elsewhere,
so be it--but Fahrenheit 451 is NOT the answer.
(Again: Reference the Sleeping Beauty story.)

You're arguing with yourself. I never said any of that drivel.

Best wishes,
James Arthur

 

[MooseFET]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET


[snip]

Maybe you really are and just don't know it. You may even be a Neocon
and not actually be aware of it.

A quick test is to see if you realize that both "Fox News" and Rush
Limbaugh are oxymorons.

I agree with you on Rush, but you clearly don't watch (or listen to)
Fox News.

I have watched and listened to (more listened to) enough to know that
they don't deserve the name "news". Then again very few elsewhere
should be allow to call themselves "news" either.

Editorial comments and what the latest starlet just did aren't news.

Won't you have a problem with no one laughing ?

No, I make my money as an engineer. Making fun of republicans is just
a hobby. It is sort of like whittling, you can't expect the trees to
understand it.

[snip]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com| 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

 

[MooseFET]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET
[snip]
Maybe you really are and just don't know it. You may even be a Neocon
and not actually be aware of it.
A quick test is to see if you realize that both "Fox News" and Rush
Limbaugh are oxymorons.
I agree with you on Rush, but you clearly don't watch (or listen to)
Fox News.
If you don't see why that is true, you just
might be a Neocon.
I think I could make a nice Foxworthesk list of "You might be a
Neocon" jokes if I worked at it.
Won't you have a problem with no one laughing ?
[snip]
...Jim Thompson

have you ever read any of Rush's -brother's- work?
David Limbaugh,a frequent NRO columnist. Good stuff.

I wasn't aware of him, I'll look him up.

www.worldnetdaily.com IIRC.

 

[MooseFET]

Before a kid is graduated from 6th grade,
he should be required to understand the steps in the process.http://www.google.com/search?q=Scientific.Method+State.the.Problem+Fo...

Kids are natural scientists.
It's when their curiosity is squashed by unquestionable dogma
that their minds switch off and we're left with
another generation of I-don't-WANT-to know-the-truth types.

Yes but remember that republicans run for and get elected to school
boards too. The best we can hope for is to prevent the republicans
from turning the schools into mindless drone factories.

 

[MooseFET]

Anybody who gets paid with tax money should be prohibited from unionizing.

Anyone who gets paid with tax money should be required to join all the
unions.

 

[MooseFET]

[...privately or home schooled ...]

Would you exempt them from public school taxes, or,
by force, make them pay for public schools they don't use?
Isn't that imposing on their liberty in a most egregious
way?

No it isn't. My taxes go to pay for many services I will never need.
I am male so the odds of me getting pregnant are darn close to zero.
I live up a fairly major slope so if my house ever flooded we would be
in serious trouble. I don't drive on many of the highways I am forced
to pay for.

You're passing a moral judgement here: you'd decide (or
have government decide) which parents are fit to raise
their own kids. That's monstrous. Can't you see that?

It defies imagination that any parent so motivated could
be worse than the public schools, even if they tried.

You have a *very* weak imagination or you have seen only a very small
section of mankind if you can't imagine parents doing far worse than
the public schools. As a society, we take children away for seriously
bad parents all the time. Can't you imagine parents that are not bad
enough to have their children removed by only a small margin.

We decide these sorts of things all the times as a society. We don't
let bad parents impose their evil will upon their children. Someones
children are their charge not their property.

And it's not in the public interest to deny them. The
home-schoolers I've known have all been _lightyears_
ahead of their public (or private) school counterparts.

How many have you known?

 

[JeffM]

MooseFET blockquoted:
If you're going to post from Google, you should read this:
news:ab833cd2-d9f7-4ae2-91bb-945ce9fabf79@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com