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Attorney generals trying to shut down usenet?

J

JeffM

Jeff said:
The problem is not with the NY Attorney Generalismo's office.
It's with Sprint, Verizon and Time Warner.
The Attny General wanted only 88 newsgroups, carrying kiddie porn,
to be shut down. Instead, the various ISP's involved
decided to shut down everything except the big 8
[. . .]
Some details:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9967119-38.html
: "Verizon offers details of Usenet deletion: alt.* groups, others
gone"

Too bad Verizon didn't restrict more groups.
It's one of the few USA-based providers
that doesn't deal with Usenet spammers.
(frontier.net is the other one that springs to mind.)
With the exception of Martin Riddle & Lawrence Smith (Ecnerwal),
I, for one, wouldn't be sorry to see either of those providers go
completely.
 
F

Frithiof Andreas Jensen

Joerg said:
Is this a joke or serious?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html

If it's true, what will those guys do next? Ban all automobiles for
everybody because some people were caught driving drunk? Then ban all
booze? Oh wait, I guess we had that already and it didn't work ...

The US administraition have been kissing Saudi bum for so long that the two
countries are becoming more and more alike every %&¤# day!! Problem is that
the EU will now jump in and draft a load of "Me-Too" legislation "to better
protect <us>/<our children> from <insert todays imagined threat here>".

Maybe we need to raise the black flag on the smoldering ruins of the Senate
/ EU-comission headquarters before "they" get it. ;-)
 
M

MooseFET

Really? It's my impression conservative religious-types usually just
control their kids, and that it's the Democrats who generally think
their government should do it for them.

Your impression is wrong. Conservative religious-types want to
control everyone and force them to comply with the rules laid down by
them.

"Ahh, Democrats," is mostly what I think when I hear politicians
promising us protection from "child predator this-and-that," and other
hobgoblins[1].

List carefully to the next republican you hear. They do exactly what
you are suggesting the Democrats do.
Any cites?

Cheers,
James Arthur
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[1] "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless
series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-- H.L. Mencken
 
M

MooseFET

Ban the 8051?

No, it is the republicans that are introducing that bill and it is
about the CDP1802 because they heard it had a SEX instruction.
 
J

James Arthur

MooseFET said:
Your impression is wrong. Conservative religious-types want to
control everyone and force them to comply with the rules laid down by
them.

As I think about the various controversial issues, ISTM that the
conservative-types who are Republicans want, generally, simply to be
left alone, whereas their Democratic counterparts advance schemes
requiring / mandating universal participation in matters they disapprove of.

For example, the anti-evolution people just don't want evolution taught
to their kids (in the schools they're compelled to attend), versus, say,
the desire to hand out free condoms, clean needles and birth control to
high schoolers.

The latter, though well-intended, are patronizing, intrusive and
insensitive to those whose sensibilities make them repugnant. Sort of
like asking a Yana indian his name (a private matter, and an indecent
query of ultimate indiscretion). Different cultures.

With a few notable exceptions, it's mostly the Democrats whose vision
these days seems to require dictating priorities to others, imposing
restraints, codes of behavior, controlling wages, prices, retirement,
etc., etc.

But conservative religious types are comparatively few, not a fair proxy
for Republicans in general, whereas "Liberal" Democrats are many, easily
out-voting the former.

Just a few impressions on a foggy Sunday morn...

Best regards,
James Arthur
 
J

JeffM

Jim said:
Hmmmm? The "Liberals" in this town think I shouldn't have a right to
send letters-to-the-editor... they'd be happier in a "Fahrenheit 451"
society, with restricted or no freedom of speech.

8-( We might have to coin "NeoLibs" to indicate that
the tactics being used by the NeoCons are being mirrored.
 
J

James Arthur

Jeff said:
Sigh... One clueless politician does some election year
grand-standing. Some big ISP's see it as a way to save some dollars.
However, that doesn't stop literally everyone from extrapolating
conspiracy theories on the event and involving censorship, religion,
big government, predatory evil corporations, party politix,
predictions of doom, and the traditional demise of the internet as we
know it. About all that's missing is the tie in to global warming
(a.k.a. climate change). I'll give usenet participants credit for
better than average imagination, but this is rediculous.

Hint: Just follow the money.
Also, Occam's Razor usually works. Please use it.

Oh it's not complicated at all. The ISPs never needed carry
USENET, nor needed they ever any excuse to drop it if they
wished to.

Occam's Razor slices off any need of money-following,
it's just basic politics, Mencken-style. [1]

[1] i.e., politicians, saving us from boogeymen.

Which naturally led to us discussing the politics
arising of it. IOW, standard s.e.d. OT fare.

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
J

JosephKK

Nope. It's the major ISP's themselves that don't want to deal with
usenet (because of lack of advertising revenue). This action is the
perfect excuse to cut their losses. No bibles required.

i suspect that this evaluation is closer to the truth.
 
J

JeffM

James said:
ISTM that the conservative-types who are Republicans
want, generally, simply to be left alone,
....only when it comes to matters of business & money.
--not when it comes to social policy,
where the current crop of Right Wingers DO like to meddle.
whereas their Democratic counterparts
advance schemes requiring / mandating universal participation
in matters they disapprove of.
aka "Noblesse Oblige"; "Shared Responsibility"; "Egalitarinanism".
Left Wingers DO like regulation of commerce and monetary speculation.
(Wonder why gas prices shot up? Speculators.)
For example, the anti-evolution people
just don't want evolution taught to their kids
(in the schools they're compelled to attend),
"Just" is an understatement:
What they *want* is the current best SCIENCE
(and the Scientific Method which supports that)
to be replaced with a particular fundamentalist religious dogma
AND HAVING *THAT* CALLED "SCIENCE"
....and they are quite persistant about this.
(If this stupidity is allowed to fester, American society is doomed.)
versus, say, the desire to hand out free condoms,
clean needles and birth control to high schoolers.
First, I'd like to see a cite for *clean needles for high schoolers*.

"Sleeping Beauty" needs to be taught at EACH grade level:
Trying to protect your child
*by destroying every spinning wheel in the kingdom* is STUPID.
Make sure your kid is TAUGHT about the dangers of spindles
rather than trying to *shield* him/her from the existance of spindles.

In 8 millenia, have we learned NOTHING as a species
about what what works and what doesn't?
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Ignorance breeds MORE ignorance.
The latter, though well-intended, are patronizing, intrusive and
insensitive to those whose sensibilities make them repugnant.
This goes direclty to The Scientific Method already mentioned.

Ignorance and unwillingness to accept facts aside,
there are working models of the paradigms you mentioned
--but *NIH* and *Dogma* and *Won't do their homework*
seem to be the paradigms adopted by the Right.
(Goldwater is spinning in his grave.)

On the other side of the equation (the Scientific Method again)
is the fact that students in "Abstinence-Only" programs
have HIGHER rates of teen pregnancy and STDs.
Sort of like asking a Yana indian his name
(a private matter, and an indecent query of ultimate indiscretion).
Different cultures.
Living in a gated community doesn't put you in "a different culture".
With a few notable exceptions, it's mostly the Democrats
whose vision these days seems to require
dictating priorities to others, imposing restraints, codes of behavior,
controlling wages, prices, retirement, etc., etc.
Things that are actually <gasp> *debated* on the floors of the
camerals
--with NeoCons (as well as actual Conservatives) participating.
But conservative religious types are comparatively few,
As are true Conservatives. See "NeoCon" (above).
not a fair proxy for Republicans in general,
I question your data set--or maybe the current image of the Right
shows an indifferent placation by non-fundies.
whereas "Liberal" Democrats are many, easily out-voting the former.
It's called "The Competitive Market of Ideas".
NeoCons lost the last round--and, having shown
their philosophy is "The emperor has no clothes" all over again,
will lose the majority of the forseeable contests.

If they want to win,
they have to show up with bettter evidence to support their case.
Not holding my breath WRT that hollow promise.

That party needs a new Goldwater--not another Gingrich.
They need to think about *How to Govern*
and stop concentrating on the constant *campaigning*
--even when they hold power.

On the last point, I hope the opposition heeds that as well.
....then again, The Gingrich Revolution
may have put us past the point of no return.
 
J

JeffM

James said:
Oh it's not complicated at all.
The ISPs never needed carry USENET,
nor needed they ever any excuse to drop it if they wished to.

....unless they claim to be selling "Internet access"
--meaning ALL 65,536 ports.

The law needs to establish their status as *utilities*
--that is *common carriers*.

OTOH, if they're going to start grading content and restricting
content,
THEN they need classified accordingly ("content provider")
and held responsible for **ALL** content passing thru their nodes
--and they don't have anywhere near enough manpower to do THAT.
 
J

James Arthur

JeffM said:
...only when it comes to matters of business & money.
--not when it comes to social policy,
where the current crop of Right Wingers DO like to meddle.

aka "Noblesse Oblige"; "Shared Responsibility"; "Egalitarinanism".
Left Wingers DO like regulation of commerce and monetary speculation.
(Wonder why gas prices shot up? Speculators.)

"Just" is an understatement:
What they *want* is the current best SCIENCE
(and the Scientific Method which supports that)
to be replaced with a particular fundamentalist religious dogma
AND HAVING *THAT* CALLED "SCIENCE"
...and they are quite persistant about this.
(If this stupidity is allowed to fester, American society is doomed.)

First, I'd like to see a cite for *clean needles for high schoolers*.

"Sleeping Beauty" needs to be taught at EACH grade level:
Trying to protect your child
*by destroying every spinning wheel in the kingdom* is STUPID.
Make sure your kid is TAUGHT about the dangers of spindles
rather than trying to *shield* him/her from the existance of spindles.

In 8 millenia, have we learned NOTHING as a species
about what what works and what doesn't?
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Ignorance breeds MORE ignorance.

This goes direclty to The Scientific Method already mentioned.

Ignorance and unwillingness to accept facts aside,
there are working models of the paradigms you mentioned
--but *NIH* and *Dogma* and *Won't do their homework*
seem to be the paradigms adopted by the Right.
(Goldwater is spinning in his grave.)

On the other side of the equation (the Scientific Method again)
is the fact that students in "Abstinence-Only" programs
have HIGHER rates of teen pregnancy and STDs.

Living in a gated community doesn't put you in "a different culture".

Things that are actually <gasp> *debated* on the floors of the
camerals
--with NeoCons (as well as actual Conservatives) participating.

As are true Conservatives. See "NeoCon" (above).

I question your data set--or maybe the current image of the Right
shows an indifferent placation by non-fundies.

It's called "The Competitive Market of Ideas".
NeoCons lost the last round--and, having shown
their philosophy is "The emperor has no clothes" all over again,
will lose the majority of the forseeable contests.

If they want to win,
they have to show up with bettter evidence to support their case.
Not holding my breath WRT that hollow promise.

That party needs a new Goldwater--not another Gingrich.
They need to think about *How to Govern*
and stop concentrating on the constant *campaigning*
--even when they hold power.

On the last point, I hope the opposition heeds that as well.
...then again, The Gingrich Revolution
may have put us past the point of no return.

In your post above you've given several examples
wanting to impose your views and values on others,
and exasperated intolerance at their dissent.

If other people want to teach their kids non-scientific
stuff, isn't that their business? Not ours to stuff
"the true way" down their throats? Isn't that their
freedom of religion, a basic right in our country? To
each his own?

You've listed several principles you believe in, and seem
frustrated you can't coerce "neo-cons" to adopt them. But why
should we have that power over another's liberties?

You also express a number of obviously wrong impressions /
stereotypes, such as conservative religious-types living in
gated communities. That couldn't possibly be anywhere close
to true, if you pause and think about it.

Just a few more thoughts...

Best wishes,
James Arthur
 
J

James Arthur

JosephKK said:
i suspect that this evaluation is closer to the truth.

More to the point, why would a sensible ISP risk getting
reamed in the press (accused of porn-mongering), investigated,
sued, ruined and raked over the coals for something they don't
even control? Where's the upside?

James Arthur
 
J

James Arthur

Tim said:
Nahhh, that one's skewed by pictures of Bill the Democrat coming up from the
last three keywords. :^)

Tim

Yep :) And a bunch of the "republican" hits were copies,
duplicated stories about naughty republicans, gleefully
reported by their critics.

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
J

JeffM

James said:
If other people want to teach their kids non-scientific
stuff, isn't that their business?
Do it at home or at Sunday school.
The word you are looking for is "appropriate".
Not ours to stuff "the true way" down their throats?
I see you've drunk the Kook-Aid.
Science class is about SCIENCE.
What is being proposed by the religious zealots
is not even NON-science--it is ANTI-SCIENCE.

Didn't ANYONE learn the Scientific Method in school?
(They're certainly intent on removing it in some locales.
This is a prescription for failure as a 21st Century nation.)
You've listed several principles you believe in, and seem
frustrated you can't coerce "neo-cons" to adopt them. But why
should we have that power over another's liberties?
I'd be happy with OPEN, HONEST discussion of the topics.
Back-door methodologies are what bug me.
You also express a number of obviously wrong impressions /
stereotypes, such as conservative religious-types living in
gated communities. That couldn't possibly be anywhere close
to true, if you pause and think about it.
Party pooper. Hyperbole is fun. :cool:
 
M

MooseFET

As I think about the various controversial issues, ISTM that the
conservative-types who are Republicans want, generally, simply to be
left alone, whereas their Democratic counterparts advance schemes
requiring / mandating universal participation in matters they disapprove of.

It may seem that way to you but that isn't the way it really is. I
assume that you are a conservative and therefor agree with the many
ways that they are meddling with your life.

It is conservatives that are for ever trying to put laws about what
goes on in peoples bedrooms onto the books. They are the ones trying
to force their religious views onto others.

Are you aware, for example, that putting the words "under god" into
the pledge turned it into an oath and thus made saying it a sin in the
eyes of many?


For example, the anti-evolution people just don't want evolution taught
to their kids

They also try to prevent all the others from learning about evolution
or they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy" to
suggest that the opinions of a few loons should be given equal weight
to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

(in the schools they're compelled to attend), versus, say,
the desire to hand out free condoms, clean needles and birth control to
high schoolers.

The latter, though well-intended,

.... and a very effective way to keep the birth rate, the disease rate
and even the rate of having sex lower.

It may come as a shock to you but the "abstinence only education" is
about as effective at reducing the rates of having sex as the movie
"reefer madness" was at reducing the rate of drug use. The city I
live in has an "abstinence only" sex education program, which like all
the others I've heard of is considered "just a pack of lies told by
the old folks" by the students. They know they are being lied to on
some of it so they figure it is all lies and instead believe the
stories that pass around through high schools everywhere.

I can remember the things that were thought to be facts by many in my
high school class. Most of them were merely nonsense but some where
dangerous nonsense.

are patronizing, intrusive and
insensitive to those whose sensibilities make them repugnant. Sort of
like asking a Yana indian his name (a private matter, and an indecent
query of ultimate indiscretion). Different cultures.

With a few notable exceptions, it's mostly the Democrats whose vision
these days seems to require dictating priorities to others, imposing
restraints, codes of behavior, controlling wages, prices, retirement,
etc., etc.

That of course is complete nonsense. It is the republicans that are
dictating insane priorities these days and it was the republicans that
did so in the past. Remember it was Nixon that did wage and price
controls etc etc.


But conservative religious types are comparatively few,

They may be few but they are in control to a degree that far out
weighs their numbers. Look at how McCain had to pander to them to get
the nomination. See how "gay marriage" is used so often to get the
republican base out. The religious extreme faction of the republican
party is the biggest voting block in the base.

not a fair proxy
for Republicans in general, whereas "Liberal" Democrats are many, easily
out-voting the former.

Just a few impressions on a foggy Sunday morn...

Just a few comments on a bright sunny afternoon.
 
M

MooseFET

On Jun 15, 2:18 pm, Jim Thompson
[....]
At least we're not queer ;-)

Oh oh, a republican just said he's not queer. You know what that
means. *Not that there's anything wrong with it* :>
 
J

Jim Yanik

On Jun 15, 2:18 pm, Jim Thompson
[....]
The USA is doomed. Stupidity has taken over.

Leftist weenies :-(

Rightist ass-wipes more likely.

At least we're not queer ;-)

Oh oh, a republican just said he's not queer. You know what that
means. *Not that there's anything wrong with it* :>

Doesn't bother me a bit if you want to be a queer ;-)

They have very high rates of serious,incurable diseases,at least the homo
males.
Wait until they win the "right" to donate blood and the supply becomes a
high AIDS risk. Homos have been pushing for that,FYI.
 
J

James Arthur

MooseFET said:
It may seem that way to you but that isn't the way it really is. I
assume that you are a conservative and therefor agree with the many
ways that they are meddling with your life.

No, I am not and do not. I simply don't notice any impact.
It is conservatives that are for ever trying to put laws about what
goes on in peoples bedrooms onto the books. They are the ones trying
to force their religious views onto others.

Agreed, and that offends me, but that's only a few, not the many.
Are you aware, for example, that putting the words "under god" into
the pledge turned it into an oath and thus made saying it a sin in the
eyes of many?

It's a sin in my eyes because it violates separation of church and state.
They also try to prevent all the others from learning about evolution
or they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy" to
suggest that the opinions of a few loons should be given equal weight
to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

That problem arises because they're compelled to send their kids to
government schools.
... and a very effective way to keep the birth rate, the disease rate
and even the rate of having sex lower.

It doesn't matter if it's effective. People have a right to
teach their kids their particular value systems, which might
include not teaching certain things at all.

It may come as a shock to you but the "abstinence only education" is
about as effective at reducing the rates of having sex as the movie
"reefer madness" was at reducing the rate of drug use. The city I
live in has an "abstinence only" sex education program, which like all
the others I've heard of is considered "just a pack of lies told by
the old folks" by the students. They know they are being lied to on
some of it so they figure it is all lies and instead believe the
stories that pass around through high schools everywhere.

I don't know why schools are involved in this. It's a
parent's job, not the schools'. Schools should first master
their own business: teaching math and reading and such.

In my time we learned the basics in health class, to the extent it
was a health concern, and concerned parents' kids could opt out.
None did.

(Of course my parents got me a book when I was 5 explaining the
whole business. I read it, I understood it, I just couldn't imagine
why on earth anyone would want to do that!)
I can remember the things that were thought to be facts by many in my
high school class. Most of them were merely nonsense but some where
dangerous nonsense.



That of course is complete nonsense. It is the republicans that are
dictating insane priorities these days and it was the republicans that
did so in the past. Remember it was Nixon that did wage and price
controls etc etc.

I understand that's your impression. Have any current examples of how
your personal liberties have been affected?

They may be few but they are in control to a degree that far out
weighs their numbers. Look at how McCain had to pander to them to get
the nomination. See how "gay marriage" is used so often to get the
republican base out. The religious extreme faction of the republican
party is the biggest voting block in the base.



Just a few comments on a bright sunny afternoon.

Thanks! I appreciate the exchange.

James Arthur
 
J

James Arthur

Jim said:
It's Attorneys General, NOT Attorney Generals ;-)

I have sons-in-law and daughters-in-law, NOT son-in-laws and
daughter-in-laws.

...Jim Thompson

But are they militant litigators?

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
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