Adding a third keypad to a Caddx NX-8, wiring help requested!

[Karl Magnus]

Karl Magnus wrote:




Care to tell us actually WHICH manufacturer, thinks there's a
difference between stranded and solid wire? And why?

I could understand, maybe a difference between twisted and untwisted
...... or shield and unshieded .......but solid and stranded ?????

If it's true, I'd really like to hear the manufacturers reason.

ITI Caretaker + and SX-V panels with alpha kp. The reason given from
engineering:

The electron "flow" in twisted wire has a better chance of "spinning
off" or keeping away, inducted interference, where sold wire (not
twisted) has no "spin" and picks up interference easier.

I have seen installs where a very long keypad run with solid wire would
work, but intermittently fail (false keystrokes) and replacing it with
stranded/twisted never failed to fix the problems.

Of course, they could be full of shit, but it worked. Every time.

KM

 

[Frank Olson]

Whoever told you that is almost as FOS as Olson. It's utter
nonsense.

When-ever Robert's confronted regarding his outrageous behaviour in Usenet,
he frequently resorts to posting nonsense like this. Doug L.'s classic post
bears repeating here:

 

[Robert L Bass]

Perhaps not in this case, but on many systems

by a certain mfg., using solid wire for the keypad
run invites nightmares.

Please be specific. Which manufacturer is that?

Regards,
Robert L Bass

 

[Robert L Bass]

The electron "flow" in twisted wire has a better chance

of "spinning off" or keeping away, inducted interference,
where sold wire (not twisted) has no "spin" and picks up
interference easier.

Whoever told you that is almost as FOS as Olson. It's utter
nonsense.

I have seen installs where a very long keypad run with
solid wire would work, but intermittently fail (false
keystrokes) and replacing it with stranded/twisted never
failed to fix the problems.

You're mistaken. If there was a difference it was due to some
other change of which you were not aware.

Of course, they could be full of shit,

They are.

...but it worked.

You probably had a bad connection. When you ran the new wire you
made it better.

Regards,
Robert L ass
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Robert L Bass]

ie. Ademco's APEX Destiny 6100 [musta been where I

came up with the idea as I have one in my house...

The idea is pure nonsense, regardless where you came up with it.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[[email protected]]

it "reduces" it, but doesn't get rid of it.
Run a piece of cat5 close enough to a florescent light, connect a
couple passive baluns and a camera, and watch it "scroll"

 

[Karl Magnus]

Whoever told you that is almost as FOS as Olson. It's utter
nonsense.

I guess you are smarter than the team of engineers at ITI who developed
the keypad data protocol then.

(Snicker)

Foam Duck you are!

 

[Karl Magnus]

They are.

Other types of wire you may need to know about include shielded,
twisted, and stranded. Shielded wire traps and drains (among other
things) RF interference and AC induction away from sensitive data
circuits. Remember to ground only one side of the shield to an earth
ground connection. Grounding both sides to the ground creates a giant
dipole antenna and introduces damaging interference instead of draining
it away. Twisted wire reduces the amount of interference, but just not
as effectively as shielded.

from: http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinstall_wiring_success/

I guess they are also lying when they say this. "Twisted wire reduces
the amound of interference...."

 

[joe]

ie. Ademco's APEX Destiny 6100 [musta been where I
came up with the idea as I have one in my house...

The idea is pure nonsense, regardless where you came up with it.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarm.com

tell it to Ademco, smartbAss
I'm sure the engineers who designed the system will run out and change
their installation instructions when they find out you think it is
nonsense. NOT

www.ademcoint.com/pdfs/apex/rklcdii.pdf

 

[Robert L Bass]

Whoever told you that is almost as FOS as Olson.

I guess you are smarter than the team of engineers at ITI
who developed the keypad data protocol then.

Nope, but certainly smart enough to recognize that the so-called
"recommendation" is pure BS. No team of engineers at ITI or
anywhere else ever said that. There is no keypad data protocol
that requires stranded wire instead of solid and the story about
electrons spinning better on stranded cable is absolute drivel.

(Snicker)

Indeed

 

[Robert L Bass]

"Shielded wire traps and drains (among other things)

RF interference and AC induction away from sensitive data
circuits."

Use shielded cable for keypads *only* if the manufacturer
specifies it. Some systems are actually made worse by using
shielded cable. In most cases it is not recommended by the
manufacturers.

"Remember to ground only one side of the shield to an earth
ground connection. Grounding both sides to the ground creates a giant
dipole antenna and introduces damaging interference instead of draining
it away. Twisted wire reduces the amount of interference, but just not
as effectively as shielded."

I guess they are also lying when they say this.
"Twisted wire reduces the amound of interference...."

What's an "amound" of interference?

You're confusing stranded wire with twisted pair cable. I said
nothing about TP cable. However, now that you mention it, there
are also some systems commonly installed by alarm companies which
are better off using parallel (non-twisted) cable.

By the way, the guy who wrote the page you cut and pasted above
isn't an engineer. He's just an installer who wrote an article
for an online magazine.

 

[Robert L Bass]

ie. Ademco's APEX Destiny 6100 [musta been where I
came up with the idea as I have one in my house...

The idea is pure nonsense, regardless where you came up with it.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarm.com

tell it to Ademco...

The suggestion is for 4-conductor, stranded wire. It says
nothing about electrons spinning better than on solid or any
other such nonsense.

I'm sure the engineers who designed the system will run
out and change their installation instructions when they
find out you think it is nonsense. NOT

You're confusing the statement about your junk science BS with a
condemnation of stranded wire. I only said that the story about
electrons was pure BS.

 

[joe]

The suggestion is for 4-conductor, stranded wire.

Thanks you for agreeing with me that that is what Ademco recommends.

It says

nothing about electrons spinning better than on solid or any
other such nonsense.

Neither did I.

You're confusing the statement about your junk science BS with a
condemnation of stranded wire. I only said that the story about
electrons was pure BS.

You seem to be confused.
I never said anything about electrons. Just stated what Ademco recommends.
Now just so you won't be confused, this is what I say:
Solid wire is better at higher frequencies and for back bone applications.
Stranded is more flexible and better for patch cords, its use should be
kept to a minimum in comm circuits because of its greater attenuation
characteristics.
Have a nice day

 

[Karl Magnus]

Thanks you for agreeing with me that that is what Ademco recommends.

It says

And neither did I. I never said "electrons spin better"...try again foam
duck!

Can un-twisted wire be used?

Some customers have successfully used un-twisted wire at short
distances. NVT does not recommend it due to its interference susceptibility.

The point is (and always was), that twisted wire provides better
resistance to interference.

I have personally witnessed at least 10 keypads that would do very
strange things when using solid wire. Things that can't be caused by
"bad connections" as you try to spin it.

ie: Fire alarm panic button keypresses being registered at the panel,
user codes that work 80% of the time on the first try.....

Plus, you are lying when you say ITI engineers never said that. I was
there, you were not. (Also, the president of ITI and VP of Dealer Sales
were there...didn't see you!)

Oh yea, ITI has a policy of not hiring felons....so I guess I can give
you a break, you had no way of being there.

 

[Karl Magnus]

Twisted pair cabling is a common form of wiring in which two conductors
are wound around each other for the purposes of canceling out
electromagnetic interference known as crosstalk. The number of twists
per meter make up part of the specification for a given type of cable.
The greater the number of twists, the more crosstalk is reduced.http://www.bassburglaralarms.com

 

[Frank Olson]

Nope, but certainly smart enough to recognize that the so-called
"recommendation" is pure BS. No team of engineers at ITI or
anywhere else ever said that.

Uh-huh... And who was it you spoke to at Elk again?? You know... the tech
support "wiz" that told you the "XEP" will broadcast ASCII strings over a
network...

There is no keypad data protocol
that requires stranded wire instead of solid and the story about
electrons spinning better on stranded cable is absolute drivel.

Ummm... I hate to burst your bubble there Robert, but... Stranded wire is
far less apt to act as an antenna source. It's why they use 32 gauge
stranded wire in those security window screens (in case you didn't know).
ITI may (and I say "may") suggest using stranded wire in their systems, I
don't know. We use DSC and Ademco products and as a consequence don't have
any reason to doubt what an individual that actually uses ITI says... You,
of course, being expert in all the security systems (snerk!) out there are
in a position to know everything... What's the Napco dual battery harness
for again?? How many keypads can you put on a Lynx panel??

Indeed

Yep!

 

[petem]

Other types of wire you may need to know about include shielded, twisted,
and stranded. Shielded wire traps and drains (among other things) RF
interference and AC induction away from sensitive data circuits. Remember
to ground only one side of the shield to an earth ground connection.
Grounding both sides to the ground creates a giant dipole antenna and
introduces damaging interference instead of draining it away. Twisted wire
reduces the amount of interference, but just not as effectively as
shielded.

from: http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinstall_wiring_success/

I guess they are also lying when they say this. "Twisted wire reduces the
amound of interference...."

Twisted mean twisted pair or wire like in a cat5 cable each pair of wire is
twisted together..

this is not stranded wire..by the way,stranded wire is more flexible then
solid wire and that's the only difference..
on a same gauge of wire stranded or not there is no difference in how the
current/voltage of the signal in it will react..up to a certain frequency..

but the frequency where the difference start to be a problem is in the high
uhf band..

I know about this cause I work a lot with transmission line in my hobby(ham
radio)

the way twisted pair works,that helps sending data on long run,is
simple...if you run 2 wire side by side for long,there will be capacitive
effect that will form.the capacitance will affect the signal sent by
distorting it..

Now if you introduce the twisting of the pair will had a coiling effect,in
electronics class we learn that capacitance and inductance are inverse and
fighting each other...so the twisted pair cable will have a tendency to have
a controlled impedance what ever the length,that's in theory but it is
working a lot better then straight wire when sending data..

of course you have to be careful about the uses of twisted pair
wiring..cause its been known to engineer that build control panel that
simple JKT induce capacitance so they build there circuit to compensate
it..(adding inductance to it)

you can learn about capacitance here:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/capacitance.htm

for inductance here:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/inductance.htm

you can learn about the way current/voltage/frequency will react together
here: (reactance)
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/reactance.htm

 

[petem]

can you be more specific on some question that were asked to you since you
like to ask for specification when some others respond to you,it would be
kind to do the same for others?

 

[Frank Olson]

I did. This morning I went to look at property on the bay front
and another place in Itaigara, had lunch at a seaside cafe and
spent the rest of the day with friends and family enjoying the
beautiful Bahian weather.

Must be nice... So much for the "biggest" online security business in the
state...

 

[Frank Olson]

In your mind, perhaps you were. Reality is you made the story
up. It sounds as though you've been taking debating lessons from
Olson.

Hey!!! At least *I* debate!! When things get too "dicey" for you, you
simply *ignore*.

Have you tried snap-rolling a 737 lately?

He probably hasn't. You have to be type certified to fly left seat in a
737.

Uh-huh, standing right next to Elvis.

Met him yesterday. Nice guy... bad teeth. Good with elevator controllers
though.

Having never attended a fantasy meeting, I wouldn't know.

You've admitted to having many such meetings and many more such
conversations... Tsk!!!