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Accurately Measuring Precision Resistors

  • Thread starter Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\
  • Start date
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Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Barry Jones said:
You really have to have *something* you trust to start with. Two
somethings makes it even easier.

I was thinking about finding *something*, and it seems to me, at least
theoretically, that you could make a large set of resistors (or other
things) of a given precision into a smaller set of resistors (or other
things) with higher precision.

For example, suppose you have 100 1 M resistors with a precision of 1%.
If you connect them all in parallel, you'd have an equivalent 10K
resistor, but it's standard deviation will have decreased by a factor of
sqrt(100). This is from the definition of Sample Normal Distribution.
Assuming the 1 M resistors had a mean of 1 M, and a somewhat normal
error distribution (it doesn't even have to be very close to normal),
this should increase the precision by a factor of 10. What say you to
the analysis?

Of course there may be other errors introduced in trying to connect 100
resistors in parallel. Details, details.

Like getting the bus hot enough to solder all 100 of them, which then
heats the other resistors up for a long time. Not so good.

But what if the testing machinery happens to be off a half percent that
day, on the high side, and all of the resistors in your batch are ones
made that day. Now your statistical curve is distorted significantly.
Now if I could just invent perpetual motion . . .

Maybe it's better to just scrounge a known good 0.1% resistor from a
piece of equipment, and have it checked by a known accurate meter. Sort
of like those sets of weights with the little ivory tweezers to pick
them up. They are known standards, cal'd at a lab that can trace back
to the standards at NIST or wherever. You don't use them day-to-day,
just once in awhile to verify that your instruments are working
properly.
 
S

Stewart Pinkerton

I too like to have accurate things to confirm something to the nth degree.
I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a trick to verify a precison
resistor with stuff you already may have as you initially asked. But by the
looks of it, it can't be done.

Unfortunately, there *are* no tricks. In order to verify any given
electrical quantity to a high degree of precision, you must already be
in possession of a highly precise electrical quantity, be it voltage,
current or resistance. The conversion is straightforward, but you need
some kind of absolute measure at some point in the procedure.
 
S

Stewart Pinkerton

You really have to have *something* you trust to start with. Two
somethings makes it even easier.

I was thinking about finding *something*, and it seems to me, at least
theoretically, that you could make a large set of resistors (or other
things) of a given precision into a smaller set of resistors (or other
things) with higher precision.

For example, suppose you have 100 1 M resistors with a precision of 1%.
If you connect them all in parallel, you'd have an equivalent 10K
resistor, but it's standard deviation will have decreased by a factor of
sqrt(100). This is from the definition of Sample Normal Distribution.
Assuming the 1 M resistors had a mean of 1 M, and a somewhat normal
error distribution (it doesn't even have to be very close to normal),
this should increase the precision by a factor of 10. What say you to
the analysis?

There is one fatal error often missed by those trying this trick - the
excluded middle. If your chosen resistors represent the best available
from that maker, then you may be in with a chance, but if they are not
the top spec, then there's a good chance that they are 'selected
seconds' which failed to make the top grade, and therefore there will
be *no* examples close to nominal. Depending on the selection process,
it's also possible that they will all be on one side of nominal.

Caveat experimentor!
 
Z

Zak

Michael said:
You mean that the 250,000 resistors someone gave me are culls? ;-) I
was told that I got them on their way to the dumpster because the
company went out of business and didn't want to lug them to an auction.

It is said that one-third of all computer equipment produced worldwide
is being destroyed without having being used - produced as spares,
obsolete before sold, you name it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same applies to other fast-moving
technology sectors - thus, surplus doesn't have to be broken or reject.

As for the resistor tolerance story: go read AoE and notice that
selecting the values you need from a batch of 5% resistirs is not good.
Stability over time, temperature, humidity just aren't good enough. And
the manufacturer will be able to do it cheaper anyway as he is already
measuring them and has a good chance to sell the rejects.


Thomas
 
H

Henry Kolesnik

"Man with one watch knows exact time, man with two, not sure." Confucius
 
D

Dave

As someone said, that only works if the originals are normally
distributed. If they were different makes then it might be valid, but
otherwise no chance.
Maybe it's better to just scrounge a known good 0.1% resistor from a
piece of equipment,

I don't think you will find 0.1% resistors are that expensive.

About $5 last time I checked. So buying a few is not exatly going to
break the bank.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

As someone said, that only works if the originals are normally
distributed. If they were different makes then it might be valid, but
otherwise no chance.


I don't think you will find 0.1% resistors are that expensive.

About $5 last time I checked. So buying a few is not exatly going to
break the bank.


Less than a dollar, quantity 1, for 402R +/-0.1% 25ppm from stock
(leaded, which I'd prefer for this purpose, 1206 or 0805).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Yes, but the original quote is rubbish, as we all know.

Confucius, he accused of many things he never say..........

Yes, I have my own doubts about attributing "man who have hole in
pocket feel cocky all day" to the great philosopher Kong fu zi.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Stewart Pinkerton said:
Unfortunately, there *are* no tricks. In order to verify any given
electrical quantity to a high degree of precision, you must already be
in possession of a highly precise electrical quantity, be it voltage,
current or resistance.

That's not true. All electrical constants are based on physical
constants, and can be derived from them.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Henry Kolesnik said:
"Man with one watch knows exact time, man with two, not sure."
Confucius

Well, if what Confucius said is true, then NIST must not be certain of
the exact time. But NIST claims accuracy of something like 10^14 or so
over their numerous standards..

Perhaps it should be "Man with one watch is deceived into thinking he
knows the exact time.."
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Dave said:
As someone said, that only works if the originals are normally
distributed. If they were different makes then it might be valid, but
otherwise no chance.


I don't think you will find 0.1% resistors are that expensive.

About $5 last time I checked. So buying a few is not exatly going to
break the bank.

Oh, okay. I had no idea of how expensive they are, only that they
usually require some amount of manual labor, either in assembly or
testing. The ones I have are wirewound, and the Micro-Ohm website says
they are wound out ot wire that's as fine as .6 mil, which is 1/4 the
thickness of a human hair. Must be a very delicate and tedious
procedure.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

John Fields said:
Confucius

Of course. Haven't you seen those cartoons with the Ancient Greeks with
the sundials on their wrists? ;-)
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Spehro Pefhany said:
No, but there were watch towers.

http://www.speff.com/gwall_mar13.jpg

Shame on you for not warning us that it would take 5 minutes to load
that image, even with the fuzzed out face.

Speaking of fuzzed out faces, I saw (not by choice, btw) the sketches of
Jacko's trial and they blurred out the faces of the witnesses. Pretty
sad when they have to go _that_ far.
 
S

Stewart Pinkerton

That's not true. All electrical constants are based on physical
constants, and can be derived from them.

While theoretically true, this is practically useless information.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

That's not true. All electrical constants are based on physical
constants, and can be derived from them.

Not very practical. ;-) Also, one of them is *defined* by a world
standard kept in Paris.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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