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Accurately Measuring Precision Resistors

  • Thread starter Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\
  • Start date
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Tim Shoppa said:
An older 400 ohm 0.1% axial resistor is almost certainly a wire-wound
unit. Long-term stability is very good. If operated over the power
limit or in extreme humidity/temp there may be some irreversible shifts
in resistance, but if never used then you probably don't have to worry.

Tim.

Yeah, these are wirewound according to the Micro-Ohm Website.

But that still doesn't eliminate the possibility that they have been
culled. When some electronic part is free, or sold at a very low price,
there is a good chance that it is a 'second' or out-of-tolerance.
Thanks.
 
J

John Fields

Something doesn't seem quite right about that +/- figure. When I
meaasured the 2 dozen, I had to use the 2k range. Most of them measured
400.3 give or take a few tenths of an ohm, except for 3 or 4 outliers
which were the same as the ones the bridge IDed (I marked them with some
white paint). On the 2k range, the Fluke can only see a tenth of an
ohm, so it seems to be able to do no better than .01% not including the
+/- counts.

I still have to deal with the R in the leads (I shorted the 12 gauge
wires together and it measured zero). Mine's an 8600 and doesn't have
4-wire R measurement (I used short lengths of 12 AWG in banana plugs to
make the measurement). Here's a 5-1/2 on Ebay for probably not much
over a hundred, and it has the 4-wire R measurement. I think the Fluke
8600s like mine go for well under a hundred on Ebay, and the cost of
calibrating them would be muich more than that, so it's kind of not
worth it. It's probably wiser to buy a 5-1/2 or better meter on Ebay,
just to get the 4-wire capability. Anyway, my Fluke measurements agree
closely with the L&N wheatstone bridge measurements, which is
reassuring. Yhanks.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun said:
Yeah, these are wirewound according to the Micro-Ohm Website.

But that still doesn't eliminate the possibility that they have been
culled. When some electronic part is free, or sold at a very low price,
there is a good chance that it is a 'second' or out-of-tolerance.
Thanks.


You mean that the 250,000 resistors someone gave me are culls? ;-) I
was told that I got them on their way to the dumpster because the
company went out of business and didn't want to lug them to an auction.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Michael A. Terrell said:
You mean that the 250,000 resistors someone gave me are culls? ;-) I
was told that I got them on their way to the dumpster because the
company went out of business and didn't want to lug them to an
auction.

Was it the Reagan and Gorby years when the phrase "Trust but Verify"
came into use? I have had friends and ham buddies in the past who gave
me stuff, too. And I've gone into surplus stores and purchased parts
that were still on tape feed, so I would guess that the parts were good,
even if somewhat old. In this case one has a reasonable assurance that
the parts are good. But if your ham buddy gives you some parts, there
is no assurance at all. He could've bought them at a ham flea market,
from someone who stole them from work, and the parts were good, so the
seller passed on the 'discount' to the buyer.

Or the seller could've been an employee of a QC inspection dept where
they regularly pick over parts and throw the rejects in the dumpster.
This could have a favorable outcome. The rejection process could be set
so that the parts, say 5% resistors, are selected for tighter tolerance.
Anything outside of + or - 2% are rejected. So what the buyer gets is a
bunch of mostly good parts, but there is a big hole in the statistical
distribution curve where there are no parts in the + to - 2% section.
So if the buyer tests them, he sees two concentrations, -5% to -2%, and
+2% to +5%. That's not all that bad, but it does show that the parts
hzve been picked over.

And of course there is the possibility that the 'hole' in the middle is
even bigger. If all the buyer sees are 5% parts in the -5% or below,
and +5% and above, then he has a bunch of rejects[1]. And of course
there are outcomes that can be somewhere in between those extremes. So
with some testing, the rejects can be rejected, and the good parts can
be saved. And hopefully those rejects end up in the dumpster, and not
on the table at the next ham flea market, or worse, in some surplus
store. "Stuff happens," dontcha know!

[1] Like they say, one man's junk is another man's treasure. If those
rejected resistors were marked 1% tolerance, but fell outside of + or -
1%, they would be perfectly acceptable for use in a circuit where only a
5% resistor was required. Or in my case, the 2 dozen 0.1% resistors
could be rejected for 0.1%, but work just fine for 1% purposes. If the
seller is truthful and tells the buyer that the 1% parts are out of
tolerance but can be used for 5% purposes, then the seller is honest
about it, even tho he's selling known rejects. But if he's
misrepresenting the rejects as good parts, then he's dishonest and
should be dealt with to prevent it from happening again. But many
sellers (especially surplus) won't 'know' that they sell rejects; they
use the excuse that they have no way of testing, so they couldn't have
known they are rejects. Yeah, right. Something else from the Reagan
years: "Plausible deniability."
Oops! Looks like it's from long before.
http://www.kavinay.com/dictionary/plausible_deniability.php
 
J

John Woodgate

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" <[email protected]>
If those rejected resistors were marked 1% tolerance, but fell outside
of + or - 1%, they would be perfectly acceptable for use in a circuit
where only a 5% resistor was required.

Even more acceptable if what you WANT is 2% above or below that value.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun said:
Was it the Reagan and Gorby years when the phrase "Trust but Verify"
came into use? I have had friends and ham buddies in the past who gave
me stuff, too. And I've gone into surplus stores and purchased parts
that were still on tape feed, so I would guess that the parts were good,
even if somewhat old. In this case one has a reasonable assurance that
the parts are good. But if your ham buddy gives you some parts, there
is no assurance at all. He could've bought them at a ham flea market,
from someone who stole them from work, and the parts were good, so the
seller passed on the 'discount' to the buyer.

Or the seller could've been an employee of a QC inspection dept where
they regularly pick over parts and throw the rejects in the dumpster.
This could have a favorable outcome. The rejection process could be set
so that the parts, say 5% resistors, are selected for tighter tolerance.
Anything outside of + or - 2% are rejected. So what the buyer gets is a
bunch of mostly good parts, but there is a big hole in the statistical
distribution curve where there are no parts in the + to - 2% section.
So if the buyer tests them, he sees two concentrations, -5% to -2%, and
+2% to +5%. That's not all that bad, but it does show that the parts
hzve been picked over.

And of course there is the possibility that the 'hole' in the middle is
even bigger. If all the buyer sees are 5% parts in the -5% or below,
and +5% and above, then he has a bunch of rejects[1]. And of course
there are outcomes that can be somewhere in between those extremes. So
with some testing, the rejects can be rejected, and the good parts can
be saved. And hopefully those rejects end up in the dumpster, and not
on the table at the next ham flea market, or worse, in some surplus
store. "Stuff happens," dontcha know!

[1] Like they say, one man's junk is another man's treasure. If those
rejected resistors were marked 1% tolerance, but fell outside of + or -
1%, they would be perfectly acceptable for use in a circuit where only a
5% resistor was required. Or in my case, the 2 dozen 0.1% resistors
could be rejected for 0.1%, but work just fine for 1% purposes. If the
seller is truthful and tells the buyer that the 1% parts are out of
tolerance but can be used for 5% purposes, then the seller is honest
about it, even tho he's selling known rejects. But if he's
misrepresenting the rejects as good parts, then he's dishonest and
should be dealt with to prevent it from happening again. But many
sellers (especially surplus) won't 'know' that they sell rejects; they
use the excuse that they have no way of testing, so they couldn't have
known they are rejects. Yeah, right. Something else from the Reagan
years: "Plausible deniability."
Oops! Looks like it's from long before.
http://www.kavinay.com/dictionary/plausible_deniability.php


A manufacturing company shut down and donated some of their remaining
parts and tools to vocational schools in the area. There are factory
sealed bags of resistors and capacitors, some bags are 5000 parts. Some
of them are listed on my website, but there is a pile of small
quantities I haven't had time to look at. I've spot tested parts and I
haven't found any bad ones yet.
 
R

Rich Grise

So what's it cost for a resistor that's more accurate than the 0.1%
resistors I have? In this same batch, I have a few resistors that are
0.05 percent. ;-) But they're as old as the others.

Sometimes I think I'm trying to talk myself into buying a more accurate
bench DMM. I have an old 4-1/2 digit, how many X's in X-1/2 digits do I
need to measure the 0.1% resistors accurately? How about a used HP or
FLuke DMM from Ebay?

There's a guy in Torrance or Gardena or somewhere around there who will
cal. and cert. your Fluke for a lot less than the cost of a new meter.
It seems like the last time I took some meters to him, it was about
thirty bucks each, but this was maybe five years ago.

And yes, if your 1.000 mA precision supply is within 0.01%, that will
do nicely. :)

Good Luck!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise


Probably either it was funny, so J. got a laugh, or J. has a meter
that's as far out of cal, which is reassuring: "I'm not the _only_
one!"

Cheers!
Rich
 
H

Henry Kolesnik

I'm curious as to the application for 400 ohm 0.1% resistors might be
besides instrumentation?
tnx
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Rich Grise said:
There's a guy in Torrance or Gardena or somewhere around there who will
cal. and cert. your Fluke for a lot less than the cost of a new meter.
It seems like the last time I took some meters to him, it was about
thirty bucks each, but this was maybe five years ago.

Well, if you run across his name or ph no, p-lease let me know.
And yes, if your 1.000 mA precision supply is within 0.01%, that will
do nicely. :)

That's if all the 30+ yr-old switch contacts, etc. between it and the
outside, throwing my readings off by a few tenths of an ohm. Since the
precision reference in there is also 30 something, it, too, may be off a
bit. Seems like that last 0.1% is the difficult part.
 
J

John Fields

A long boring thread...

---
[email protected] ?

If it was boring for you, instead of just yawning and taking a
superior position and going away with no comments, why did you feel
that it was necessary for you to respond with a bogus address instead
of not responding at all?

Because you think your opinion is important? It isn't, unless you can
back it up with facts so, unless you can do that, piss off.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Henry Kolesnik said:
I'm curious as to the application for 400 ohm 0.1% resistors might be
besides instrumentation?
tnx

Well, calibration, for one. And they can be used to make a closely
balanced wheatstone bridge. But since these are wirewound, that's not
too practical for AC work. Unless the inductance is as accurate as the
resistance.

Also, education. One should learn how to make accurate measurements and
minimize errors. And learn the capabilites and limitations of his test
equipment.

But as I originally stated, my primary reason for measuring them
accurately is to make sure they're not some out-of-tolerance culls that
someone picked up ar a surplus parts place.
 
P

Phil Allison

"Rich Grise"
There's a guy in Torrance or Gardena or somewhere around there who will
cal. and cert. your Fluke for a lot less than the cost of a new meter.
It seems like the last time I took some meters to him, it was about
thirty bucks each, but this was maybe five years ago.

** To fully "calibrate" a DMM means producing a chart detailing the
percentage and sign of the error in the reading on each range - so an
owner can apply a correction when needed. For the calibration lab, this
means the holding accurate references for DC and AC voltage, current and
ohms etc for all ranges on the meter which must be superior to the quoted
accuracy of the meters to be tested.

The new model Fluke 87 "series V" 4.5 digit meter ( for example) is speced
as having accuracy as follows;

DC volts +/- 0.05% + 1 digit ( = 11 counts max error )

AC volts +/- 0.7% + 2 digits ( = 142 counts max error )

AC amps +/- 1.0 % + 2 digits ( = 202 counts max error )

Ohms +/- 0.2% + 2 digits ( = 42 counts max error )





............ Phil
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Michael A. Terrell said:
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun said:
Was it the Reagan and Gorby years when the phrase "Trust but Verify"
came into use? I have had friends and ham buddies in the past who gave
me stuff, too. And I've gone into surplus stores and purchased parts
that were still on tape feed, so I would guess that the parts were good,
even if somewhat old. In this case one has a reasonable assurance that
the parts are good. But if your ham buddy gives you some parts, there
is no assurance at all. He could've bought them at a ham flea market,
from someone who stole them from work, and the parts were good, so the
seller passed on the 'discount' to the buyer.

Or the seller could've been an employee of a QC inspection dept where
they regularly pick over parts and throw the rejects in the dumpster.
This could have a favorable outcome. The rejection process could be set
so that the parts, say 5% resistors, are selected for tighter tolerance.
Anything outside of + or - 2% are rejected. So what the buyer gets is a
bunch of mostly good parts, but there is a big hole in the statistical
distribution curve where there are no parts in the + to - 2% section.
So if the buyer tests them, he sees two concentrations, -5% to -2%, and
+2% to +5%. That's not all that bad, but it does show that the parts
hzve been picked over.

And of course there is the possibility that the 'hole' in the middle is
even bigger. If all the buyer sees are 5% parts in the -5% or below,
and +5% and above, then he has a bunch of rejects[1]. And of course
there are outcomes that can be somewhere in between those extremes. So
with some testing, the rejects can be rejected, and the good parts can
be saved. And hopefully those rejects end up in the dumpster, and not
on the table at the next ham flea market, or worse, in some surplus
store. "Stuff happens," dontcha know!

[1] Like they say, one man's junk is another man's treasure. If those
rejected resistors were marked 1% tolerance, but fell outside of + or -
1%, they would be perfectly acceptable for use in a circuit where only a
5% resistor was required. Or in my case, the 2 dozen 0.1% resistors
could be rejected for 0.1%, but work just fine for 1% purposes. If the
seller is truthful and tells the buyer that the 1% parts are out of
tolerance but can be used for 5% purposes, then the seller is honest
about it, even tho he's selling known rejects. But if he's
misrepresenting the rejects as good parts, then he's dishonest and
should be dealt with to prevent it from happening again. But many
sellers (especially surplus) won't 'know' that they sell rejects; they
use the excuse that they have no way of testing, so they couldn't have
known they are rejects. Yeah, right. Something else from the Reagan
years: "Plausible deniability."
Oops! Looks like it's from long before.
http://www.kavinay.com/dictionary/plausible_deniability.php


A manufacturing company shut down and donated some of their remaining
parts and tools to vocational schools in the area. There are factory
sealed bags of resistors and capacitors, some bags are 5000 parts. Some
of them are listed on my website, but there is a pile of small
quantities I haven't had time to look at. I've spot tested parts and I
haven't found any bad ones yet.

I worked for a test equipment manufacturing company in 1980. At that
time CMOS chip orders had a lead time of a _year_. The distribs were
selling our company defective crap that died the first day of the
burn-in. We called it "4081itis" because those 4081, or more to the
point, MC14081 chips that were dying.

So getting parts (cmos chips in this case) from a distributor doesn't
guarantee that you're getting parts that aren't defective or rejects.

Spot checking parts for acceptance is a good idea, as long as the sample
size is statistically valid. And of course the sample must be random,
not just the first ten or so parts out of the box.

Speaking of acceptance, we got another notice at work from Dell about
the laptop power adapters being recalled by Dell. I found one in my
stuff that's one that must be replaced. They get hot and burn up on
occasion. That's not acceptable. If you have a Dell laptop or docking
station, check to see if you have a defective adapter here.
https://www.delladapterprogram.com/Main.aspx
 
H

Henry Kolesnik

I took like to have accurate things to confirm something to hte nth degree.
I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a trick to verify as you
asked but by the looks of it, it can't be done.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Henry Kolesnik said:
I took like to have accurate things to confirm something to hte nth degree.
I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a trick to verify as you
asked but by the looks of it, it can't be done.

--

Ummmmm.. I think I need some kind of instrument to understand what you
said above. Or maybe I should just put a few 'pints' under my belt and
I'd understand you more clearly. Speaking of pints under my belt, check
this out. I assume by pints, they mean ale, since lager is German,
IIRC.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1524853,00.html

A real gut-buster! More here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/4347259.stm
73
Hank WD5JFR
in message news:[email protected]...
[snip]
 
H

Henry Kolesnik

I too like to have accurate things to confirm something to the nth degree.
I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a trick to verify a precison
resistor with stuff you already may have as you initially asked. But by the
looks of it, it can't be done.
 
B

Barry Jones

Henry said:
I too like to have accurate things to confirm something to the nth degree.
I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a trick to verify a precison
resistor with stuff you already may have as you initially asked. But by the
looks of it, it can't be done.
You really have to have *something* you trust to start with. Two
somethings makes it even easier.

I was thinking about finding *something*, and it seems to me, at least
theoretically, that you could make a large set of resistors (or other
things) of a given precision into a smaller set of resistors (or other
things) with higher precision.

For example, suppose you have 100 1 M resistors with a precision of 1%.
If you connect them all in parallel, you'd have an equivalent 10K
resistor, but it's standard deviation will have decreased by a factor of
sqrt(100). This is from the definition of Sample Normal Distribution.
Assuming the 1 M resistors had a mean of 1 M, and a somewhat normal
error distribution (it doesn't even have to be very close to normal),
this should increase the precision by a factor of 10. What say you to
the analysis?

Of course there may be other errors introduced in trying to connect 100
resistors in parallel. Details, details.

Now if I could just invent perpetual motion . . .
 
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