About leakage inductance in transformers

[Terry Given]

I agree totally John. Every system has noise and a little noise can
sometimes improve performance but too much is just disruptive. MW has no
respect for others so how can we have any respect for him. Sounds like a
smart tech that never became an engineer.
Cheers,
Harry

and really resents it. That would explain the behaviour. And there is
precedent....

Cheers
Terry

 

[John Popelish]

...but as long as you can put up with it, I'm enjoying learning more
about magnetics than I thought I ever could.

I am, of course, editing out the MP crap from the good stuff you guys
are feeding me.

Same here. I am saving copies of all these lessons, even if
I don't understand every bit at the moment. When I get
bored, one of these days, I'll build a nice Mathcad
worksheet that ties it all together. I hope.

 

[Fred Bartoli]

Terry Given a écrit :

Indeed.

On a related note, I asked someone a little while ago why the "oral
minority" who crap on about morality always seem to get caught sticking
there peckers in the wrong places (eg pastor Ted et al). The response?
people see themselves in others. The virtuous assume others are
virtuous, so see no need to proselytise. The corrupt see corruption,
thus spout off about it (at least until they get caught, then they tend
to shut up, fast).

Methinks a similar argument explains MassivelyWrongs frequent "your all
retards" outbursts.

Yep. I've for long noticed that the way one think other peoples are say
much more on oneself than on those other peoples.

 

[MassiveProng]

*THAT* is the best possible refutation you can make of my statements re.
magnetics design? Pathetically peurile posturing prat!

I can whip your ass on transformer design as well as construction
any day.

You're likely so stupid that you don't even know what a segmented
bobbin is for, or why it is required in some instances.

 

[MassiveProng]

I agree totally John. Every system has noise and a little noise can
sometimes improve performance but too much is just disruptive. MW has no
respect for others so how can we have any respect for him. Sounds like a
smart tech that never became an engineer.
Cheers,
Harry

My original statement about transformers and gaps is true, and they
got shit slung back in their faces AFTER they attacked my remarks, AND
they don't even have a clue about gapped transformers.

So **** you too if you want to be on their fucktard bandwagon.

 

[MassiveProng]

and really resents it. That would explain the behaviour. And there is
precedent....

It's PRECEDENCE, dumbfuck!

 

[Terry Given]

I can whip your ass on transformer design as well as construction
any day.

judging by your fairly stupid posts to date on magnetics design, it
apppears you spend far too much time whipping asses, and nowhere near
enough studying electromagnetism. probably explains your scatological
obsession though.

You're likely so stupid that you don't even know what a segmented
bobbin is for, or why it is required in some instances.

ROTFLMAO! I can think of at least 3 reasons; there are probably more.

OK:

whats the greatest power density *you personally* have ever achieved in
a transformer, using only free convection?

whats the highest power transformer *you personally* have ever designed?

(you'll have me beat on highest voltage, for sure)

And I mean transformers that *you personally* designed. not ones that
are part of the SMPS you get to test. Inductors count too.

now would be a good time to put up, or shut up.

Oh, and seeing as you know so much about transformer design, and this
thread is apparently useful to others, how about describing a way to
calculate core loss for a ferrite material; I'm sure others will
appreciate the information.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Terry Given]

It's PRECEDENCE, dumbfuck!

This is just too funny!

prec·e·dent –noun
1. Law. a legal decision or form of proceeding serving as an
authoritative rule or pattern in future similar or analogous cases.
*************************************************************
2. any act, decision, or case that serves as a guide or justification
for subsequent situations.
–adjective pre·ce·dent
*************************************************************
3. preceding; anterior.


prec·e·dence
–noun
1. act or fact of preceding.
2. the right to precede in order, rank, or importance; priority.
3. the fact of preceding in time; antedating.
4. the right to precede others in ceremonies or social formalities.
5. the order to be observed in ceremonies by persons of different ranks,
as by diplomatic protocol.


yet again, MassivelyWrong lives up to his name.

this is just too easy.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Terry Given]

My original statement about transformers and gaps is true, and they
got shit slung back in their faces AFTER they attacked my remarks, AND
they don't even have a clue about gapped transformers.

wrong thread. This entire branch (which contains essentially all of your
posts in this thread) stems from your erroneous claim (4/03/2007) that:

"In order for ANY energy to pass from the primary to the secondary,
it MUST pass through the core"

So **** you too if you want to be on their fucktard bandwagon.

So:

MassivelyWrong has a dearth of magnetics design skills

MassivelyWrong is patently afflicted with lethologica

MassivelyWrong has dubious reading comprehension, viz. which thread he
is responding to.


Cheers
Terry

 

[MassiveProng]

This is just too funny!

prec·e·dent –noun
1. Law. a legal decision or form of proceeding serving as an
authoritative rule or pattern in future similar or analogous cases.
*************************************************************
2. any act, decision, or case that serves as a guide or justification
for subsequent situations.
–adjective pre·ce·dent
*************************************************************
3. preceding; anterior.


prec·e·dence
–noun
1. act or fact of preceding.
2. the right to precede in order, rank, or importance; priority.
3. the fact of preceding in time; antedating.
4. the right to precede others in ceremonies or social formalities.
5. the order to be observed in ceremonies by persons of different ranks,
as by diplomatic protocol.


yet again, MassivelyWrong lives up to his name.

this is just too easy.

You're STILL an idiot!

Look, dipshit.

IF you had said "is a precedent", you would have been right. SINCE
what you said did not have the word "a" with it, the term is "is
precedence".

Also, regardless of your fucktard lookup, the word "precedence" is
used in law ALL THE TIME, you stupid ****.

With every post you make, you show your POSTERIOR.

 

[MassiveProng]

wrong thread.

Wrong again, dumbfuck. You all started your bullshit in the thread I
mentioned, and you carried it into this thread.

This entire branch (which contains essentially all of your
posts in this thread) stems from your erroneous claim (4/03/2007) that:

"In order for ANY energy to pass from the primary to the secondary,
it MUST pass through the core"

It's true, even if that core is air. The two windings MUST be
proximal to each other, and since we were talking about REAL
transformers, not some RF air core thingy, yes, my statement is true.

Try passing POWER across an air core transformer.

What the **** do you think the core is there for? Extra weight, you
stupid ****?

 

[Terry Given]

Wrong again, dumbfuck. You all started your bullshit in the thread I
mentioned, and you carried it into this thread.




It's true, even if that core is air. The two windings MUST be
proximal to each other, and since we were talking about REAL
transformers, not some RF air core thingy, yes, my statement is true.

LOL! if the core is air, there is no core....

why do you think windings are interleaved? not to maximise coupling to
the core, but to maximise coupling to *each other*.

If the core is all that important to power transfer, how come the core
losses in a (buck-derived) smps are essentially independant of load? how
come a Microwave Oven Transformer gets as hot at no load as it does at
full load?

Try passing POWER across an air core transformer.

how much? 1kW? 10kW? 100kW? no worries. google IPT. Its quite impressive
to see a large battery being charged with 300A across a 6" air gap. that
you can stick your arm in.

What the **** do you think the core is there for? Extra weight, you
stupid ****?

how about rising to my magnetics challenge, and *proving* you know how
to design magnetics, instead of demonstrating yet again that you can
spell the word **** (which most 6-year-olds can do).

you are just all pissy because you have repeatedly shown that you dont
really know much about magnetics, and are in all probability no better
than an uppity tech with a large Im-not-an-engineer chip on its shoulder.
Cheers
Terry

 

[MassiveProng]

why do you think windings are interleaved? not to maximise coupling to
the core, but to maximise coupling to *each other*.

Not all transformers have "STACKED" windings. Interleaved is an
entirely incorrect term, dope.

I have several designs that use a segmented bobbin, and the primary
is at one end, and the secondary spans the rest of the bobbin. The
reason is isolation as well as the fact that some 1700 plus secondary
turns were required. If you know anything about transformers, you
would know that the number of turns that can be safely nested together
is limited by the breakdown strength of the insulation on the mag
wire. Typically a max of a few hundred. That is why one will see a
layer of secondary windings, covered by tape, and then another layer
wound over that one. It is even referred to as a "layered build".

If one places too many turns on one bobbin segment, the longevity of
the transformer is in serious jeopardy as the voltage differential
from the first turn to the last is so high that breakdown is likely.
There are even transformers where the primary and secondary are on
separate bobbins on opposite sides of the core. SO YES, it is the
core that passes the energy, you stupid dipshit.

 

[Terry Given]

Not all transformers have "STACKED" windings. Interleaved is an
entirely incorrect term, dope.

look harder.

stacked <> interleaved.

and not all stacked windings are interleaved.

I have several designs that use a segmented bobbin, and the primary
is at one end, and the secondary spans the rest of the bobbin. The
reason is isolation as well as the fact that some 1700 plus secondary
turns were required. If you know anything about transformers, you
would know that the number of turns that can be safely nested together
is limited by the breakdown strength of the insulation on the mag
wire. Typically a max of a few hundred. That is why one will see a
layer of secondary windings, covered by tape, and then another layer
wound over that one. It is even referred to as a "layered build".
indeed.


If one places too many turns on one bobbin segment, the longevity of
the transformer is in serious jeopardy as the voltage differential
from the first turn to the last is so high that breakdown is likely.

hence, for example, progressive- or jumble-winding. zig-zag winding is
exactly wrong for this purpose (and serves to maximise end-to-end
winding capacitance)

There are even transformers where the primary and secondary are on
separate bobbins on opposite sides of the core.

Philips/ferroxcube used to make a 2-part ETD29 bobbin, for much the same
reason (its not in the 2000 ed of MA02). one bobbin fit entirely inside
the other, so creepage & clearance was very high.

Nowadays one would simply use TIW, unless its an HV transformer.


SO YES, it is the

core that passes the energy, you stupid dipshit.

all these types of transformers have poor coupling.

I suspect your experience is limited to HV transformers, where
dielectric breakdown, corona etc considerations dominate, and you just
have to live with poor coupling.

for non-HV applications, its all about maximising coupling.


how about this then: Assuming I can live with the resistive losses, the
amount of power I can bung thru a transformer is NOT limited by the core.

You still havent responded to my challenge.

Cheers
Terry

 

[John Larkin]

Try passing POWER across an air core transformer.

A lot of 100 kilowatt radio stations do exactly that.

John

 

[joseph2k]

wrt the diatribes, sure.

I thought others might be interested in partial core transformers though.

and its funny to see just how little he really knows about transformers

Cheers
Terry

It was funny one MassivelyWrong post worth. I got bored and do not pester
Wrong any more.
Let's send him to Coventry.

 

[MassiveProng]

look harder.

Wrong. "Interleaved" is NOT synonymous with "stacked", idiot.

stacked <> interleaved.

You're an idiot.

and not all stacked windings are interleaved.

None are, dumbass. That's because you chose an incorrect term which
is not even used by the industry for this application.

indeed.

OMG! What, no standard idiots from the retarded bandwagon response?

hence, for example, progressive- or jumble-winding. zig-zag winding is
exactly wrong for this purpose (and serves to maximise end-to-end
winding capacitance)


Philips/ferroxcube used to make a 2-part ETD29 bobbin, for much the same
reason (its not in the 2000 ed of MA02). one bobbin fit entirely inside
the other, so creepage & clearance was very high.

No. I am talking about a C I core where the primary and secondary
are separated by several inches.

Nowadays one would simply use TIW, unless its an HV transformer.


SO YES, it is the

all these types of transformers have poor coupling.

You are one of those dopes that calls zero degrees C cold.

It is all relative. Planck would have a field day with you.

I suspect your experience is limited to HV transformers, where
dielectric breakdown, corona etc considerations dominate, and you just
have to live with poor coupling.

I suspect that you make retarded assessments all the time, as you
have already made several in these few threads alone.

Try taking apart an fried, baked solid transformer from a '43
Chrysler AM tube radio apart forensically to find one mil fish paper
between 40 layers of windings of #40 wire at about 25 turns per layer,
then counting the layers to reconstruct the turns count, then
examining the primary so that you can rebuild the thing for the WWII
aviator that owns the refurbed car.

It was such a pain in the ass to re-make that I had to leave on
lamination plate out during the rebuild.. 100% vacuum impregnated
with Dolph's varnish, and baked at 425F for several hours. Radio has
worked for years since with no appreciable heat from the transformer.
I switched to #38 wire for the secondary. I suspect that made much of
the difference.

for non-HV applications, its all about maximising coupling.

Only at 60Hz. For switchers, it's all about making the circuit
perform optimally, and in such cases gaps are often needed, and very
often used to condition the drive signals.

how about this then: Assuming I can live with the resistive losses, the
amount of power I can bung thru a transformer is NOT limited by the core.

To a point. That would depend on the volts per turn used for the
design. Saturation is possible in many cases where accepted design
rules/conventions were not followed.

You still havent responded to my challenge.

Did you think it was a five minute exercise?

 

[MassiveProng]

A lot of 100 kilowatt radio stations do exactly that.

We had not included RF. Where were you?

Also, if you are talking about the transmitter antenna passing the
carrier to my receiver as the secondary, the 100kW ends up as a few
femtowatts. Hardly what one would call passing power.

 

[John Larkin]

We had not included RF. Where were you?

Also, if you are talking about the transmitter antenna passing the
carrier to my receiver as the secondary, the 100kW ends up as a few
femtowatts. Hardly what one would call passing power.

OK, how about all those electric toothbrushes that charge magnetically
through an air gap?

OK,OK, now you're going to say "We had not included toothbrushes.
Where were you."

John

 

[John Larkin]

Wrong again, dumbfuck. You all started your bullshit in the thread I
mentioned, and you carried it into this thread.


It's true, even if that core is air. The two windings MUST be
proximal to each other, and since we were talking about REAL
transformers, not some RF air core thingy, yes, my statement is true.

Try passing POWER across an air core transformer.

What the **** do you think the core is there for? Extra weight, you
stupid ****?

I think the proper term everyone should use is "Always Wrong."

John