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Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect

P

Phil Allison

"Greg Hansen"
Inductance. I=V/Z, and Z = R + iwL



** Strewth, if we just add


e = mc squared


the mysteries of the *entire* universe are done like a dinner.




........ Phil
 
C

Catch-22

Mathematically, any variable divided by zero
is considered 'undefined' or a non-number.
That much has nothing to do with electronics
or any other similar equation where division
by zero occurs.

DJ Delorie's answer was very good from the
practical point of view.

Laodao's answer is analytically recursive.
It points out that voltage is a function of resistance.
So your version of Ohm's law becomes i=v(r)/r.
But if you solve for v(0)=0 then i=0/0.
Which is it then, is the current infinite or zero?

If the voltages source is a capacitor that
could instantaneously discharge, then both
answers could be considered correct in the
sense that the discharge would be both infinite
and zero in an instantaneous amount of time.
You wouldn't be able to separate the two measurements.

Mike Warren's reply to Abstract Dissonance is
profound. Does an infinite precision measurment
take infinite time to measure? If so how can
we measure the current in an instaneous discharge?

If the denominator in your version of Ohms law
is finite but goes 'slowly' goes to zero then
it's more of a limits/calculus problem as Alan B
pointed out. In terms of measuring, you'd have to measure
or at least prove that you can always measure
the current as the resistance goes to zero.
At some point though you will not be able to
do this precisely. I cannot measure resistance
or current with infinite precision.
So using a value like zero for current in the
denominator can be considered impractical.

Bill Bowden brings up a good question about
alternating current. For instance what if there's
an impedance mismatch. Then there is current
flowing in both directions at the same time
and they can be of different values and they
can be frequency dependent as DJ Delorie points out.
 
B

Bob Myers

Which is, of course, not a problem.

As has been mentioned, there ARE such things as superconductors.
If we grant that the resistance of such things IS exactly zero, all
this means per Ohm's Law is that the potential drop (E) across
the conductor is also zero. I = 0/0 is not a mathematical problem,
it simply tells us that the current in such a case will be limited by
other factors, including (and perhaps especially) the resistance outside
the superconductor itself. We should also note that a zero-resistance
conducting path is NOT a zero-impedance path; it is, even in theory,
impossible to create a zero-impedance path of non-zero physical
length.

Bob M.
 
J

John Fields

Which is, of course, not a problem.

As has been mentioned, there ARE such things as superconductors.
If we grant that the resistance of such things IS exactly zero, all
this means per Ohm's Law is that the potential drop (E) across
the conductor is also zero. I = 0/0 is not a mathematical problem,
it simply tells us that the current in such a case will be limited by
other factors, including (and perhaps especially) the resistance outside
the superconductor itself. We should also note that a zero-resistance
conducting path is NOT a zero-impedance path; it is, even in theory,
impossible to create a zero-impedance path of non-zero physical
length.
 
C

chuck

Catch-22 said:
Mathematically, any variable divided by zero
is considered 'undefined' or a non-number.
That much has nothing to do with electronics
or any other similar equation where division
by zero occurs.

Certainly.

Ohm's law in the physical world suffers
no restrictions or qualifications that I
can imagine. Measurements of E, I, and R
in the real world will not produce
mathematical aberrations of the sort
raised by the OP.

In math, OTOH, there exist constructs
with no counterpart in the physical
world that can lead to the question
originally posed.

Caution should be exercised in going
from the math to the physical world.

Chuck
 
D

David L. Jones

Radium said:
Hi:

If a conductor has zero resistance, then what is the amperage of a
current flowing though it?

Amperage = voltage/resistance

If the resistance is zero, then the amperage is something that math
cannot explain. Anything divided by zero is an "error" when calculated.

How to solve this puzzle?

There is no puzzle.
No voltage source exists that has zero internal resistance. So you
can't place a voltage source across zero resistance and get infinite
current. The current would be = V / Vinternal resistance.

Any current flowing through zero resistance produces zero voltage drop
V=I*R, so ohms law holds up just fine.

Superconductors have zero resistance, they do certainly exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductivity

Dave :)
 
S

Stanislaw Flatto

Radium said:
Hi:

If a conductor has zero resistance, then what is the amperage of a
current flowing though it?

Amperage = voltage/resistance

If the resistance is zero, then the amperage is something that math
cannot explain. Anything divided by zero is an "error" when calculated.

How to solve this puzzle?


Thanks,

Radium
Wrong math, what was the voltage that you measured on this cirquit?
And the source that you applied it from?
Back to school and listen to calculus lessons!
This is not "Star Trek next generation".

Have fun

Stanislaw
Slack user from Ulladulla.
 
J

John Larkin

Ah. Where to begin. <taps keyboard>. Well, let's keep it simple. There
is no such thing as zero resistance in a conductor.

Quit that annoying tapping and google "superconductor." Current has
been experimentally circulated in superconductive rings for years with
no indication of losses.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Yes, but E=IR, so if you have no resistance (R) then the voltage (E) =
zero and the current (I) is undefined since I=E/R and if E and R are
both zero, the current (I) can be a very large number, since 0/0 =
infinity. So what is the current in that case?

No, 0/0 is indeterminate. All that means is that, in a superconductive
circuit, you can't make a voltage measurement that tells you anything
about the current that's flowing. But the current is whatever it is,
and can be measured by other means, like magnetically for instance.

John
 
A

Abstract Dissonance

Catch-22 said:
Mathematically, any variable divided by zero
is considered 'undefined' or a non-number.
That much has nothing to do with electronics
or any other similar equation where division
by zero occurs.

DJ Delorie's answer was very good from the
practical point of view.

Laodao's answer is analytically recursive.
It points out that voltage is a function of resistance.
So your version of Ohm's law becomes i=v(r)/r.
But if you solve for v(0)=0 then i=0/0.
Which is it then, is the current infinite or zero?

If the voltages source is a capacitor that
could instantaneously discharge, then both
answers could be considered correct in the
sense that the discharge would be both infinite
and zero in an instantaneous amount of time.
You wouldn't be able to separate the two measurements.

Mike Warren's reply to Abstract Dissonance is
profound. Does an infinite precision measurment
take infinite time to measure? If so how can
we measure the current in an instaneous discharge?

If the denominator in your version of Ohms law
is finite but goes 'slowly' goes to zero then
it's more of a limits/calculus problem as Alan B
pointed out. In terms of measuring, you'd have to measure
or at least prove that you can always measure
the current as the resistance goes to zero.
At some point though you will not be able to
do this precisely. I cannot measure resistance
or current with infinite precision.
So using a value like zero for current in the
denominator can be considered impractical.

Bill Bowden brings up a good question about
alternating current. For instance what if there's
an impedance mismatch. Then there is current
flowing in both directions at the same time
and they can be of different values and they
can be frequency dependent as DJ Delorie points out.

The fact of the matter is that there are no zero resistance conductors or
infinite precision measure devices or anything like that. These are all
mathematical idealizations of a property that exists in the physical world.
Even super conductors do not have zero resistance(and many pople like to
think). Theres a very fine division between what happens in the physical
world and what happens in our minds. You can hypothesize all day long about
"what if's" and all it does it lead to mathematical contradictions like
this. I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing but that one has to be
very very careful and really know the situation.

I think the sad fact is that "infinity" cannot exist but in our minds. What
does infinite current mean? If we expand the definition of current then it
must mean an infinite number of electrons(or protons or whatever you use as
your basis for current) flowing past a point in one second. Why? because we
already "know" they cannot have infinite speed. But theres a contradiction.
There are only a finite number of electrons in the universe.

Some people like to "what if" everything to death... "what if there was an
infinite number of electrons" or "what if there was zero resistance
conductors". These are very similar to questions like "What if there is a
god" or "What if I lived for ever". The only real thing that can come of
these types of questions is a waste of time(and it can be measured too).

I think people ask these types of questions because they want to feel smart
but are to stupid or to lazy to learn about much more important things that
actually have answers. They can sit around all day asking these questions
and when they don't arrive at an answer they won't feel stupid because no
one else has them either(or could prove them wrong).

It should be a crime to mention infinity outside the scientific community.
Far to many people don't have a clue about what it means(Actually no one
does but some more than others).

Anyways, thats my rant for today.
 
J

John Larkin

The fact of the matter is that in reality we cannot have such things as zero
resistance(even in superconductors)

But we do, as far as anyone has ever been able to measure.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Hi:

If a conductor has zero resistance, then what is the amperage of a
current flowing though it?

Amperage = voltage/resistance

If the resistance is zero, then the amperage is something that math
cannot explain. Anything divided by zero is an "error" when calculated.

How to solve this puzzle?


The simplest answer is that Ohm's Law is not a law at all. It's never
true, and it's often wildly off.

John
 
A

Alan B

Quit that annoying tapping and google "superconductor." Current has
been experimentally circulated in superconductive rings for years with
no indication of losses.

You missed this bit: "Well, let's keep it simple." Since I don't have an
absolute-zero chamber in my workshop, I thought I'd leave superconductors
out of the picture. Zat okay?
 
D

David L. Jones

Abstract said:
The fact of the matter is that there are no zero resistance conductors or
infinite precision measure devices or anything like that. These are all
mathematical idealizations of a property that exists in the physical world.
Even super conductors do not have zero resistance(and many pople like to
think).

Then how do you think that current can continually loop essentially
forever in a super conductor without any loss and no applied voltage?

P=I^2 * R

The current loops forever because P=0 due to R=0

Dave :)
 
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