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zapping gates

J

Jim Thompson

Canadian airlines have a history of gliding airliners ( the A330 in this case
was operated by Air Transat ). In 1983 an Air Canada Boeing 767 ran out of fuel
enroute and also managed to glide succesfully to a suitable runway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

The two aircraft are apparently known unofficially to aircrew as the Gimli
Glider and the Azores Glider.


You'd hate to have some APU fuel left should the main engines flame out.

Graham

Plus it goes "stale" and gets jelly-like.

...Jim Thompson
 
K

Keith

I think so.

THay have to have some sort of APU, above a certain size. Smaller
planes (727/737/MD80 class) are still small enough for the pilot to
moose the controls around. Large aircraft need hydraulic assist so
there has to be some APU for engines-out. I believe some
commercial craft have a JP4 driven emergency power unit in the
tail. Military jets (e.g. F16) often use hydrazine in their APUs.
....nasty stuff though.
 
E

ehsjr

Jim said:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin

[snip]
There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.


John


IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

...Jim Thompson

Nowadays someone would sue the construction company
for not making the overpass wide enough. I'm not a
pilot - I don't even play one on TV - but landing a
707 on a highway sounds like some pretty impressive
flying to me.

Ed
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jim said:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin

[snip]
There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.


John


IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

...Jim Thompson

Nowadays someone would sue the construction company
for not making the overpass wide enough. I'm not a
pilot - I don't even play one on TV - but landing a
707 on a highway sounds like some pretty impressive
flying to me.

Ed

Even back then it was 4-lane divided.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Joerg

Hello Tim,

AFAIK, they are rated to fly with just one engine. Two are there for
reliability, not having to trim the rudder like hell, and of course higher
performance.

Fly, yes, but not at high altitudes. The 767 where one quit was
descending quite a bit when that happened. At first they said it's a
weather related change but looking out the windows most of us said
"yeah, right". The yaw was quite noticeable and minutes later the
captain told us what really happened. Then I understood why they used
that little white lie, several seasoned biz travelers had panic in their
eyes and buried their fingers into the arm rests as if trying to hold on.

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rich Grise

On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]
There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.

IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

The 707 is an amazingly robust airplane - "They don't make them like
they used to" - and the only really hard part about landing a big airplane
like that is getting used to the ground effects when you flare - you think
you're just going to settle to the runway, but suddenly find that you're
floating over it, and going to go off the end, so you have to drive the
plane into the ground, kinda.

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

John Larkin

On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]
There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.

IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

The 707 is an amazingly robust airplane - "They don't make them like
they used to" - and the only really hard part about landing a big airplane
like that is getting used to the ground effects when you flare - you think
you're just going to settle to the runway, but suddenly find that you're
floating over it, and going to go off the end, so you have to drive the
plane into the ground, kinda.

Cheers!
Rich

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

John
 
R

Rich Grise

On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]

There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.

IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

The 707 is an amazingly robust airplane - "They don't make them like
they used to" - and the only really hard part about landing a big airplane
like that is getting used to the ground effects when you flare - you think
you're just going to settle to the runway, but suddenly find that you're
floating over it, and going to go off the end, so you have to drive the
plane into the ground, kinda.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

Way kewl! Can't do it in a B-52, at least not at 300 feet:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/B-52 Crash.mpg
It's the fourth one down here, in case that link doesn't work:
http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos/

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

John Larkin

12:07 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]

There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.

IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

The 707 is an amazingly robust airplane - "They don't make them like
they used to" - and the only really hard part about landing a big airplane
like that is getting used to the ground effects when you flare - you think
you're just going to settle to the runway, but suddenly find that you're
floating over it, and going to go off the end, so you have to drive the
plane into the ground, kinda.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

Way kewl! Can't do it in a B-52, at least not at 300 feet:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/B-52 Crash.mpg
It's the fourth one down here, in case that link doesn't work:
http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos/

Cheers!
Rich


Way creepy.

Do you remember PSA? They used to run shuttle flights between LAX and
SFO every hour. You'd go the the airport, go to the waiting area, and
get on the next plane. No tickets, no ID, no security, you just paid
the $15 on board in cash. I did it a bunch when I was consulting for
UCLA.

Anyhow the story I was told, maybe an U.L., was that the pilots were
bored one night flying a 727 from LAX up the coast, so they started
doing rolls for fun. They did four, I think, until a stewardess looked
out the window and saw the world upside down and freaked and turned
them in. The pilots were fired, according to the story.

John
 
R

Rich Grise

Way creepy.

I originally saw the whole video, with commentary, where the pilot was
some kind of loose cannon hot-shot, and had been explicitly forbidden
from trying to do aerobatics in a BUF (Big Ugly Fucker), but he thought,
"Hell, I'm invulnerable!", like most college grads do. In the version of
that video that I saw, you can see two ejection seats leave the airplane
just before it goes in - I think a couple of the guys survived - did you
know that some of the seats in the B-52 actually eject _downward_?
Do you remember PSA? They used to run shuttle flights between LAX and
SFO every hour. You'd go the the airport, go to the waiting area, and
get on the next plane. No tickets, no ID, no security, you just paid the
$15 on board in cash. I did it a bunch when I was consulting for UCLA.

Never been that close to the turf, but I have taken ridiculously
inexpensive commuter flights - one time, from SFO to Oakland, we were
on ascent for about 5 minutes, and descent for another 5, and we were
on the ground. Possiblly surprisingly, it was quicker and cheaper than
a taxicab! :)
Anyhow the story I was told, maybe an U.L., was that the pilots were
bored one night flying a 727 from LAX up the coast, so they started
doing rolls for fun. They did four, I think, until a stewardess looked
out the window and saw the world upside down and freaked and turned them
in. The pilots were fired, according to the story.

I should go see "Apollo 13", the Ron Howard movie - one time on some
talk show, he was whining that on the Vomit Comet, whoever wasn't in a
particular zero-gee scene would be in the back of the plane playing
Superman, and he was stuck working!

Closest I've ever been to zero-gee was "free-fall", which isn't really;
Air is surprisingly viscous when you're going straight down from 10,000
feet with nothing but you, God, and a rip cord. ;-)

(there I was, at twelve five, with nothing but a silkworm and a sewing
machine....) ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
K

Keith

28:22 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:12:07 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]

There was a teevee show on last week, about an Airbus 330 that ran out
of gas over the Atlantic, lost all power, turned around, glided for 20
minutes, and managed to land on a military airstrip in the Azores.
Impressive. I thought these things glided about as well as cinder
blocks.

IIRC late '50's, early '60's. Some air transport company plane, 707,
ran out of fuel and sat down on Ohio State Route 7 (parallels the Ohio
River). Did just fine until they came to an overpass ;-) Stripped
the wings right off. Fortunately no fuel.

The 707 is an amazingly robust airplane - "They don't make them like
they used to" - and the only really hard part about landing a big airplane
like that is getting used to the ground effects when you flare - you think
you're just going to settle to the runway, but suddenly find that you're
floating over it, and going to go off the end, so you have to drive the
plane into the ground, kinda.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

Way kewl! Can't do it in a B-52, at least not at 300 feet:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/B-52 Crash.mpg
It's the fourth one down here, in case that link doesn't work:
http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos/

Cheers!
Rich


Way creepy.

It was a 1G roll so the gravity vector was always in the same
orientation WRT the aircraft. The aircraft nor anything inside
knew it was upside down...
Do you remember PSA? They used to run shuttle flights between LAX and
SFO every hour. You'd go the the airport, go to the waiting area, and
get on the next plane. No tickets, no ID, no security, you just paid
the $15 on board in cash. I did it a bunch when I was consulting for
UCLA.

Anyhow the story I was told, maybe an U.L., was that the pilots were
bored one night flying a 727 from LAX up the coast, so they started
doing rolls for fun. They did four, I think, until a stewardess looked
out the window and saw the world upside down and freaked and turned
them in. The pilots were fired, according to the story.

....unless one looked out the window. ;-)
 
G

Greg Neff

Closest I've ever been to zero-gee was "free-fall", which isn't really;
Air is surprisingly viscous when you're going straight down from 10,000
feet with nothing but you, God, and a rip cord. ;-)

(there I was, at twelve five, with nothing but a silkworm and a sewing
machine....) ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

I experienced zero-gee once on an Air Canada flight on approach to
Philadelphia. It lasted for about three seconds, followed by a
similar period at about two-gees. I remember watching a surprised
flight attendant in the aisle quickly brace herself. I was impressed
that she managed to stay on her feet. After we landed and parked at
the gate, the captain got on the PA and explained that the maneuver
was necessary to avoid another aircraft.

================================

Greg Neff
VP Engineering
*Microsym* Computers Inc.
[email protected]
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Darn! I thought this was going to be another anti Microsoft rant.
 
J

John Larkin

Un bel giorno John Larkin digitò:


Since this thread has gone a little polemic, please don't misunderstand me
when I ask you (with all the good intentions): what were you trying to
prove?

Prove? I just thought the numbers were interesting. The gate leakage
numbers are cool, too. Who needs a reason?
If datasheet says Vgsmax is 30 V, I think it's safe to stay under
30V, no matter how conservative are the absolute ratings.

Gosh.

John
 
H

Harry Dellamano

John Larkin said:
Prove? I just thought the numbers were interesting. The gate leakage
numbers are cool, too. Who needs a reason?


Gosh.

John
This thread shows you why you can't just report a piece of information
without defending it to the n'th degree. What a PITA. It was interesting to
see who gave you a lot of sh*t and who took it at face value. These people
do not realize that there is a gray zone between Absolute Maximum and
Absolute Failure. You reported Absolute Failure which is needed info.
MOSFETs may not fail if you exceed the AM. I will remember your data point
the next time I smoke a MOSFET and must determine exactly what caused the
failure. In catastrophic situations, many strange things happen and this may
help to solve the puzzle.
I remember and found it very informative, your reporting MOSFET performance
to >200c. Interesting that you did not receive much grief for that report.
It has be helpful to me in diagnosing some catastrophic failures.
I hope that this does not deter you from reporting useful information in
the future. Maybe you should distribute it as "data taken because I could".
Regards,
Harry
 
T

Terry Given

Harry said:
This thread shows you why you can't just report a piece of information
without defending it to the n'th degree. What a PITA. It was interesting to
see who gave you a lot of sh*t and who took it at face value. These people
do not realize that there is a gray zone between Absolute Maximum and
Absolute Failure. You reported Absolute Failure which is needed info.
MOSFETs may not fail if you exceed the AM. I will remember your data point
the next time I smoke a MOSFET and must determine exactly what caused the
failure. In catastrophic situations, many strange things happen and this may
help to solve the puzzle.
I remember and found it very informative, your reporting MOSFET performance
to >200c. Interesting that you did not receive much grief for that report.
It has be helpful to me in diagnosing some catastrophic failures.
I hope that this does not deter you from reporting useful information in
the future. Maybe you should distribute it as "data taken because I could".
Regards,
Harry

ditto. interesting.

of course it does make me wonder about the absolute failure dynamic gate
voltage (c.f. DC). I think I can make a hand-wavy argument that it will
be lower, and related to Tr, Tf. Alas, I do not have a 20-80V pulse
generator with adjustable slope, or I'd give it a whiz.

the ESD testing would account for this, as its a charge transfer thing
that happens pretty quickly. Hey, thats how to test it - charge up a
cap, then smack it across the gate with a low Rdson FET. peak current
very high, FET controls it and slope, and any old LV pulse gen will do.
I'll give it a crack this arvo.

Cheers
Terry
 
J

John Larkin

ditto. interesting.

of course it does make me wonder about the absolute failure dynamic gate
voltage (c.f. DC). I think I can make a hand-wavy argument that it will
be lower, and related to Tr, Tf. Alas, I do not have a 20-80V pulse
generator with adjustable slope, or I'd give it a whiz.

the ESD testing would account for this, as its a charge transfer thing
that happens pretty quickly. Hey, thats how to test it - charge up a
cap, then smack it across the gate with a low Rdson FET. peak current
very high, FET controls it and slope, and any old LV pulse gen will do.
I'll give it a crack this arvo.

For a *really* fast hv edge, use a relay.

John
 
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