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Yet another reason to avoid PartMiner

H

Homer J Simpson

That is interesting. Here in Toronto, most of the Radio Shacks I've
been to carried electronics components (proto boards, soldering irons,
resistors, caps, LED's, connectors, IR, etc.) but they are hidden at
the far back of the store. Also they are very expensive.
5 LED's will cost you almost $3 CDN, pfft... Thats crazy being that I
can go to the many electronics stores we have downtown and buy 5 for a
quarter.

Yes. A dollar store that sold electrical / electronics only would compete
well with RS (The Source).

The reason they hide that stuff in back is that the salesman makes a modest
commission on a cellphone deal but only about 20 cents on a $3 sale.
 
G

GregS

RadioShack is about consumer goods nowadays, and their salespeople
often do not know what is a resistor etc. Which kind of makes sense,
when electronic components are so easy to buy from various websites, t
makes little sense to sell them in stores.

My Radio Shack remodled a couple years ago and I found the new layout the best ever,
except I miss when the stores had a regular stereo listening area setup. They had nice isles
and had soldering stuff, cleaners right there in the middle of things.

They closed this summer.

greg
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Homer J Simpson said:
The reason they hide that stuff in back is that the salesman makes a modest
commission on a cellphone deal but only about 20 cents on a $3 sale.

Yeah, but one can argue that -- these days -- it usually requires *selling* to
get someone to purchase a cell phone, whereas for something like an LED the
employee is almost always just going to be an *order taker*.
 
H

Hershel

Yeah, but one can argue that -- these days -- it usually
requires *selling* to
get someone to purchase a cell phone, whereas for something
like an LED the
employee is almost always just going to be an *order taker*.

But the next guy that comes in the store spends 1/2 hour
asking the employee why he can't connect the LEDs to
120VAC, before he spends the $3.

Then of course, returns the defective parts the next day.

-Hershel
 
L

Lostgallifreyan

But the next guy that comes in the store spends 1/2 hour
asking the employee why he can't connect the LEDs to
120VAC, before he spends the $3.

Then of course, returns the defective parts the next day.

-Hershel

How many buyers were really that bad? Surely not enough to dent the income
that badly? I think it's arguable that assumptions like that lead to an
impression that stocking small parts leads to being beset with timewasters,
and that might be a big reason why people stopped stocking them. That says
far more about the management than about the customers. I accept that there
is no smoke without fire, but the fire is usually far smaller than the
smoke. Besides, isn't pricing LED at $3 for a pack of 5 asking for trouble?
All the sensible and well-informed clients are buying elsewhere.

The first rule of high street spares and parts is: keep them in stock. That
might not apply to special parts but once it gets to the point where a 16V
1000 µF capacitor or an LM317T regulator can't be bought at a moment's
notice at any time the shop is open, that's when the business goes belly up
with all speed unless it gives up trying and becomes a different kind of
shop, in which case it should make way for another firm who will take on
that trade. Looks like some of the small mail order firms might soon start
doing what Maplin and Tandy/Radio Shack were doing. I guess history repeats
itself.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Lostgallifreyan said:
That just means that the repair/recycling goes back to source instead of
other people getting a look-in. Sad, but it still allows for one of my
preducted outcomes. It's not a big prediction. Even if legislation doesn't
enforce recycling, it will happen. Think about that heat gradient thing,
the way different melt temperatures allow plastics to separate from each
other. That would benefit the maker immensely, saving them a lot of raw
materials cost. It's in their interset to get the stuff back, ot's one
reason why they like it that way. It doesn't all go to landfill, there are
whole towns in China that specialise in deconstructing stuff to save money
in reuse, and I'm sure the companies would love to automate this, same as
the industrial revolution sought to automate things.


Then that's where some limited service industry can result. Perverse, I
know, but if buying intact units to strip for spares is the cheap way to
get them, then that's what people will do. I suspect it won't be to do
direct repairs of original gear (except where individuals demand and pay
for it), the firms making it will do that, if anyone does, but there will
be money in it. The trick for people outside the firm's traffic will be in
taking advantage of a cheap item containing parts that someone elsewhere
will pay a lot for. The main problem with this is that many items will
have
a high waste to parts ratio. That could be where the enforcing of
recycling
comes in though. Once the companies making this stuff identify their
ownership so well that the bulk traffic is to and from them, it might be
easy to make them responsible to handle even dismantled items, providing
the people who dismantled them voluntarily make the effort to return them
at least to a starting point for their journey.

This isn't blind idealism, it's already beginning. Recycling still has a
green treehugging image, but in cities that's rapidly being seen as a
basic
service like rubbish collection, but with more detailed demands on what is
put out, and how. Money will drive this, eventually, same as it has for
years with non-ferrous metals. As soon as the price of heavy metals and
oil
start to rise as population growth, world-wide industrialisation, and
increasing difficulty getting raw materials grows, so will the rise of a
market for salvage. Wherever there is a need for sorting, even at
domestic level where a lot will be done, there will be a demand for pay
for the work, and as the price will rise, and the work won't get done
without pay, that pay will get paid, though there won't be anything quick
about agreements being made. There will come a complexity and invention of
ways to make money that hasn't been seen or imagined yet.

That's all as may be, but I really can't see any mileage in offering
recovered parts to the service industry, or any such thing spawning a
revival in the ' mend and make do ' mentality of Joe Punter. I would not
dream of fitting a second hand recovered laser, or any other component come
to that. It's simply not practical when you've got to be able to offer a
warranty on the repair. Neither would I waste the time recovering components
for commercial use. It would just not make economic sense. The only way that
recycling of electronic equipment is going to have any serious impact, is in
recovery of the base materials for reuse in manufacturing new goods.
However, like wind turbines and battery cars, the energy budget advantage
for doing even this, is dubious. Far better my original contention that
manufacturers should be obliged to pass on spare parts at cost plus
handling, not cost plus handling plus 5000% profit, thus stopping the stuff
being prematurely scrapped in the first place...

Arfa
 
G

Gene S. Berkowitz

no- said:
Your view is outdated. The pressure to recycle, not just to satisfy new
laws and regulations, but also to satisfy the ease of getting raw materials
cheaply from existing stuff. That means modularity. The only way you can
defeat that is to invest hugely in smart materials so a gradient of heat
can make them part company in sequence for easy separation later. Work is
being done on this, and if people want to have gaudy fashionable shells
that change from week to week, that work will be vital and must continue,
because there's only a limited time that sweatshops in China and such will
tolerate doing that work by cheap manual labour. China's been buying the
West's scrap metals like there's no tomorrow, because it knows what we've
allowed ourselves to foget, that where there's muck there's brass, as it's
said in Yorkshire. The only reason why the Wallmart kind of business
thrives as it does, is because they can pass the resposibility while raking
in the buck, if you take my meaning... Once the oil reserves become
expensive, people will have to either have to be VERY smart with their
materials, as I said at the start of this post, OR thry will have to revert
to modularity, the way telecoms companies made their phones for many years.
Both will probably happen. Either way, both methods will involve a lot more
recoverable stuff than current methods, so a healthy service industry will
rebuild on the strength of that.

No, my view is current. We build products to RoHS, and we now document
the quickest and safest ways to disassemble our products for recycling.
In most cases, our SMT boards are not economical to repair; the labor
cost of removing one PLCC package, or God forbid, a BGA, very rapidly
approaches our cost for a new, fully populated and tested PCB from our
turnkey vendor.

It's cheaper and easier to shred the entire product, case & all, skim
the plastics off to make park benches, and throw the rest in the
crucible and separate out any metals of value.

Should China become unwilling to take on the work, there are dozens of
developing economies in Asia and Africa that would be happy to take it
off their hands.

--Gene
 
M

Mike Monett

Gene S. Berkowitz said:
In most cases, our SMT boards are not economical to
repair; the labor cost of removing one PLCC package, or God forbid, a
BGA, very rapidly approaches our cost for a new, fully populated and
tested PCB from our turnkey vendor.

It's cheaper and easier to shred the entire product, case & all, skim
the plastics off to make park benches, and throw the rest in the
crucible and separate out any metals of value.

Just out of curiosity, Gene, do you do any failure analysis to determine
the cause before shredding the evidence?

Regards,

Mike Monett

Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm
SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm
Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
 
T

Tom Lucas

Hershel said:
But the next guy that comes in the store spends 1/2 hour
asking the employee why he can't connect the LEDs to
120VAC, before he spends the $3.

Then of course, returns the defective parts the next day.

That was one of the better parts of the Maplin job but it certainly did
take a lot of time. I didn't mind on slow week days but on a busy
Saturday when someone hands you a melted mass of black plastic and wants
you to identify and replace a part now absent from a smoking crater then
it becomes a bit tedious.

Good job satisfaction though if you manage to actually teach a customer
something because you know he's going to go bragging to his mates about
his new found knowledge, even if it is just calculating a voltage drop
resistor for a LED.
 
G

Gene S. Berkowitz

Just out of curiosity, Gene, do you do any failure analysis to determine
the cause before shredding the evidence?

I didn't say we don't investigate, it just isn't cost-effective to
repair the board by hand, rather than pull a new one from stock.

We do investigate hen we can. Some of our boards are potted for
intrinsic safety, and it's pretty difficult to remove. When a product
is returned because it was struck by lightning, or flooded, we don't
usually investigate much!

The failures we see in-house have been due to improper handling (bad
wrist straps), correctly marked SMT resistors that are the wrong value,
and an occasional defective EEPROM.

--Gene
 
M

Mike Monett

Gene S. Berkowitz said:
I didn't say we don't investigate, it just isn't cost-effective to
repair the board by hand, rather than pull a new one from stock.
We do investigate when we can. Some of our boards are potted for
intrinsic safety, and it's pretty difficult to remove. When a
product is returned because it was struck by lightning, or
flooded, we don't usually investigate much!
The failures we see in-house have been due to improper handling
(bad wrist straps), correctly marked SMT resistors that are the
wrong value, and an occasional defective EEPROM.

Thanks, Gene,

Is it correct to assume the in-house problems are detected before
shipment? Do you do a burnin where you run a self-test program?

Regards,

Mike Monett

Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm
SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm
Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
 
G

Gene S. Berkowitz

Thanks, Gene,

Is it correct to assume the in-house problems are detected before
shipment? Do you do a burnin where you run a self-test program?

We have board-level tests that are either performed at the vendor or by
us prior to product assembly. The finished product usually undergoes
further performance/accuracy checks. This catches virtually all our
defects. We usually don't burn in products unless they have mechanical
parts like compressors or pumps that tend to have much higher "infant
mortality".

--Gene
 
J

Johnny Boy

Aly said:
I agree with this. I outright refuse to use suppliers that expect ME to pay
for their advertising material. Maplin is one them, wanting £5 for a
catalogue. RS are so stingy with their catalogues it's unheard of, you'd
think they'd be giving them away on every street corner when you see their
prices. After LOADS of arguing I lost interest, they sent them eventually
by UPS/TNT? to a rural country location taking 3-weeks of further cock-ups,
such that I had absolutely no faith in anything I ever ordered getting to
me. The catalogues went in the bin.

Buy our products *AND* buy our sales merchandise. Use *OUR* delivery
service that *WE* have a cut price contract with, even if it'll never get to
you because the drivers are too lazy to even bother.

This methodology wouldn't work at my local Indian Restaurant I'm sure.
I was going to reply with some sense, but why bother with effort on
these deals - just tell PartsMiner to go and get stuffed. In fact, tell them
nothing, just move on. There are plenty of other parts suppliers just
waiting for real business, you don't need these arseholes - just boycott
them. RS are no better. I have an account with them, but, in fact, even if
you have an account, they're not interested
.... Johnny
 
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