Wow, first lead-free victim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage

[Jan Panteltje]

Wow, first lead-free vicim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.
I just did read that as a cause of the Xbox problems (red ring of death,
3 blinking red LEDs) now the lead free solder is mentioned.
It desintegrates over time at the high temperatures.
MS fixes it by adding an extra fan and heatpipe.
MS will make a new Xbox design (Falcon).

If this is correct we can expact more multi million PC fun....

Source (in German):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92447

 

[Eeyore]

Wow, first lead-free vicim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.
I just did read that as a cause of the Xbox problems (red ring of death,
3 blinking red LEDs) now the lead free solder is mentioned.
It desintegrates over time at the high temperatures.
MS fixes it by adding an extra fan and heatpipe.
MS will make a new Xbox design (Falcon).

If this is correct we can expact more multi million PC fun....

Source (in German):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92447

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

 

[Anthony Fremont]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

He already did. M$ is going to shell out 1$B on extended warranty
liabilities, lead free solder seems to be the problem. Is anyone surprised?

 

[Eeyore]

He already did. M$ is going to shell out 1$B on extended warranty
liabilities, lead free solder seems to be the problem. Is anyone surprised?

Not especially but I was hoping for something more than a mere allegation that
lead-free is to blame. A reasoned technical case maybe ? Would that be too much
to ask ?

Incidentally it seems to me that Microsoft is simply bad at hardware design.
From what I've read, the parts in question were inadequately cooled/ventilated.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the contributors here would have spotted the
problem at a design review. Maybe lead-free processes made things worse but how
?

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

Not especially but I was hoping for something more than a mere allegation that
lead-free is to blame. A reasoned technical case maybe ? Would that be too much
to ask ?

It isn't more than an allegation by anonymous "experts". The pertinent
sentence:

As a possible cause of failure experts suspect the lead-free solder
used on the platter, which could become brittle with frequent
temperature changes.

Anno

 

[Eeyore]

Something about a lead-free solder (used to connect the heat pipe to
the graphics chip) becomming brittle? And the fix is a screw? The XBOX
360 runs *hot* (and noisy with the fans).

I'm forever amazed at the crazy (often very poor) cooling methods employed by
some manufacturers.

That (thermal fatigue) was a big problem with a lot of power semis back 30
years go. If you cycled them just right you could kill them in a month or two,
all the time
staying well within specs.

Yes, I recall RCA running ads about their superior thermal cycling performance.
Wasn't that in part due to solders used for die attachment ? I wonder of that
attachment's degraded since RoHS ?

Graham

 

[Gibbo]

BTW, despite the EU's ill-advised attempts to ban an element from the
period table, we have some rather interesting price changes for lead:

As people generally don't eat or chew electronic equipment the main
reason for the lead part of RoHS (ie the part that affects us) seems to
have been to prevent lead leaching its way back into the ground once
it's discarded and thrown in a landfill.

But as WEEE has put an end to landfilling with old electronic equipment
what was the point in the lead part of RoHS?

 

[Eeyore]

But as WEEE has put an end to landfilling with old electronic equipment
what was the point in the lead part of RoHS?

They said to make recycling easier (less 'dangerous' ?).

Graham

 

[Gibbo]

They said to make recycling easier (less 'dangerous' ?).

Graham

Sounds to me more like a knee jerk reaction to one perceived problem
then another reaction that made the first one redundant. Whilst reducing
reliability and increasing costs.

There again, what else could we expect from the EU?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

Something about a lead-free solder (used to connect the heat pipe to
the graphics chip) becomming brittle? And the fix is a screw? The XBOX
360 runs *hot* (and noisy with the fans). That (thermal fatigue) was a
big problem with a lot of power semis back 30 years go. If you cycled
them just right you could kill them in a month or two, all the time
staying well within specs.

BTW, despite the EU's ill-advised attempts to ban an element from the
period table, we have some rather interesting price changes for lead:

(look at the 5-year price chart near the middle):

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/lead_historical_large.html#5years




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Eeyore]

Sounds to me more like a knee jerk reaction to one perceived problem
then another reaction that made the first one redundant. Whilst reducing
reliability and increasing costs.

For the life of me I can't figure out what's worth 'recycling' from old circuit
boards.

There again, what else could we expect from the EU?

More costly and stupid regulations.

Graham

 

[Gibbo]

For the life of me I can't figure out what's worth 'recycling' from old circuit
boards.

Lead?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

I'm forever amazed at the crazy (often very poor) cooling methods employed by
some manufacturers.

Probably what's crazy in this case is the number of watts being
dissipated.

5V @ 1A = 5W + 12V @ 16.5A = 198W = 203W in that little box. And
that's with the PSU external.

Of course some PC video cards alone dissipate around 200W (e.g. Quadro
FX5600), it's just what very high performance costs with today's
technology.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/peripher...ditors-graphics-pros-apple-excited-241478.php

Yes, I recall RCA running ads about their superior thermal cycling performance.
Wasn't that in part due to solders used for die attachment ?

Entirely due, IIRC. Kodak (IIRC) started to make SSRs because they
couldn't buy any that were good enough for their own use.

I wonder of that
attachment's degraded since RoHS ?

Graham

Obviously a design issue in any case. Thermal fatigue is a known issue
with solders of every description.
http://www.niccomp.com/rohs.html-ssi




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Mike Monett]

That (thermal fatigue) was a
big problem with a lot of power semis back 30 years go. If you cycled
them just right you could kill them in a month or two, all the time
staying well within specs.

It apparently still is a major problem. I came across an article a month or
so ago on a recent failure analysis on power devices that traced the
problem to thermal fatigue. I recall thinking that problem was solved back
in the 70's - why is it coming back again?

I'll see if I can locate the article and post the url.

Regards,

Mike Monett

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Sounds to me more like a knee jerk reaction to one perceived problem
then another reaction that made the first one redundant. Whilst reducing
reliability and increasing costs.

There again, what else could we expect from the EU?

Sheep.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Eeyore]

It apparently still is a major problem. I came across an article a month or
so ago on a recent failure analysis on power devices that traced the
problem to thermal fatigue. I recall thinking that problem was solved back
in the 70's - why is it coming back again?

RoHS ?

Graham

 

[Didi]

But as WEEE has put an end to landfilling with old electronic equipment

Sounds to me more like a knee jerk reaction to one perceived problem
then another reaction that made the first one redundant. Whilst reducing
reliability and increasing costs.

There again, what else could we expect from the EU?

Oh it is not initiated by stupidity, although if pressed hard enough
(I wish there were someone capable of that) they will eventually
resort
to exactly that excuse.
Much stupidity has been involved, of course, but if we
could dig deep enough we would see the interest, the whole thing is
obviously criminal - there just is no other plausible explanation.

Dimiter

 

[Jan Panteltje]

RoHS ?

Graham

I have been doing some googling on the xbox subject, and one thing I found related
to reballing ballgrid GPUs.
As there is no major announcement from the GPU manufacturer for a 100 million
charge ;-) it must not the GPU itself, but the solder balls detoriating.
This may well be due to thermal cycling, but could also be because of simply
overheating combined with board bending, what not.
Or perhaps bonding issues of the lead-free solder to the copper?
MS is not forecoming with any details.
It would be good if they did.

I do not understand either why lead is being banned, it is not dangerous in this
form unles you start licking it.
And licking it is _very_ difficult with a ballgrid.
LOL

 

[James Arthur]

Sounds to me more like a knee jerk reaction to one perceived problem
then another reaction that made the first one redundant. Whilst reducing
reliability and increasing costs.

There again, what else could we expect from the EU?

What do you EU-types use for tire-balancing weights these days?

James Arthur

 

[Nico Coesel]

Wow, first lead-free vicim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.
I just did read that as a cause of the Xbox problems (red ring of death,
3 blinking red LEDs) now the lead free solder is mentioned.
It desintegrates over time at the high temperatures.
MS fixes it by adding an extra fan and heatpipe.
MS will make a new Xbox design (Falcon).

If this is correct we can expact more multi million PC fun....

Source (in German):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92447

They don't blame lead free soldering, but they blame poor thermal
design. The designers just cut too many corners.