Why no delayed trigger on newer DSOs?

[[email protected]]

The newer scopes such as this Instek allow data dumps via USB into the
PC at an amazing clip. Not realtime but close. When I want to do
something unusual with the data I use the CSV import into Excel.
However, I am not an expert (yet) in VBA so I can't do any processing
on-the-fly. But I'll learn it. Was hoping it was C and not Basic but, oh
well, I guess that was Bill Gates' decision.

If you have a CSV file, you don't have to use Excel, you can parse
that in a C program
fairly easily. But then you might have to figure out how to use some
plotting library
to display the results

 

[Joerg]

If you really want to get ambitious, note that VBA (as provided in
Word/Excel/etc.) will let you access COM objects which -- for the purpose of
this discussion -- boils down to nothing more than a function call interface
with a prescribed set of data types and calling conventions. COM objects can
be programmed (implemented) using C++ (and plenty of them are), although it's
much easier to write them using one of the ".Net" languages such as C#.

..NET is IMHO a pain. Before the Instek SW would run at all I had to
install that and it turned out that backward compatibility within .NET
files from the MS-server (with the same file name!) is not always a
given. Bottomline I had to keep installing until one of them stuck. I'd
rather stay with what's there so my clients wouldn't have to install
anything if they needed it.

Realistically I think Gates' choice of VBA rather than C for Office makes
sense... I know office workers who have absolutely zero formal programming
background, and they can manage to modify and write various little utilities
and macros in VBA, whereas I think they'd find the initial learning curve a
lot steeper with C and wouldn't even bother with it.

Quite frankly I haven't met any office workers so far that have used
VBA. Heck, they didn't even know it existed or what it is. For a long
time I didn't either.

 

[Joel Kolstad]

Quite frankly I haven't met any office workers so far that have used VBA.

OK, I admit I actually only know one. Everyone else I know who uses VBA
either does have a software or electronics (but not necessarily with
programming included) background.

Heck, they didn't even know it existed or what it is. For a long time I
didn't either.

That's why I often say that OpenOffice suffices for perhaps 90% of MS Office
users -- until quite recently there was nothing like VBA available with OO...
although probably more people simply don't find OO stable, don't like the
"look and feel," etc. (I seem to recall you were in the camp of not finding
it stable.)

There's a huge amount of "programmability" in Windows that few people ever
take advantage of. Almost all contemporary "heavyweight" programs (such as
CorelDraw, Microwave Office, Visio, MathCAD, even the desktop itself, etc.)
can be remotely controlled via COM, using nothing more than an Excel
spreadsheet if you feel like it.

---Joel

 

[Joerg]

OK, I admit I actually only know one. Everyone else I know who uses VBA
either does have a software or electronics (but not necessarily with
programming included) background.




That's why I often say that OpenOffice suffices for perhaps 90% of MS Office
users -- until quite recently there was nothing like VBA available with OO...

I've tried a few VBA apps I got from Europe on OO. None worked, but they
all did on MS-Office. That alone would be the deciding factor for me.

although probably more people simply don't find OO stable, don't like the
"look and feel," etc. (I seem to recall you were in the camp of not finding
it stable.)

It's very bloated IMHO. And slow.

There's a huge amount of "programmability" in Windows that few people ever
take advantage of. Almost all contemporary "heavyweight" programs (such as
CorelDraw, Microwave Office, Visio, MathCAD, even the desktop itself, etc.)
can be remotely controlled via COM, using nothing more than an Excel
spreadsheet if you feel like it.

The beauty of this is that while the recipient must click "allow macros
to run" (but from a trusted source) they don't need to install anything.
I wish Instek would have stuck to Excel-VBA and not require users to go
through a tedious and shaky .NET installation.

 

[Joerg]

If you have a CSV file, you don't have to use Excel, you can parse
that in a C program
fairly easily. But then you might have to figure out how to use some
plotting library
to display the results

However, for a non-programmer like myself, why should I? Excel is plenty
fast and does the job nicely. You have a great display running in
minutes and everyone else can run it as well, without installing a program.

 

[Fred Bartoli]

Le Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:54:43 -0700, Joerg a écrit:

The newer scopes such as this Instek allow data dumps via USB into the
PC at an amazing clip. Not realtime but close. When I want to do
something unusual with the data I use the CSV import into Excel.
However, I am not an expert (yet) in VBA so I can't do any processing
on-the-fly. But I'll learn it. Was hoping it was C and not Basic but, oh
well, I guess that was Bill Gates' decision.

Oh, it's not the transfer speed that lacks. For the few thousands points
it's no pb. But then post processing is a pain: given I need about 1k
averaging to reasonably get the signal out of noise, and the low rep rate
and low signal level, the scope has enough time to drift between the
superfast, fast, medium speed, slow and super slow acquisition so that I
need to realign all the traces, resample to a log time scale. It'd be
better if the fast and slow sample rates were done 'simultaneously'.

 

[Joerg]

Le Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:54:43 -0700, Joerg a écrit:




Oh, it's not the transfer speed that lacks. For the few thousands points
it's no pb. But then post processing is a pain: given I need about 1k
averaging to reasonably get the signal out of noise, and the low rep rate
and low signal level, the scope has enough time to drift between the
superfast, fast, medium speed, slow and super slow acquisition so that I
need to realign all the traces, resample to a log time scale. It'd be
better if the fast and slow sample rates were done 'simultaneously'.

We seem to be working in very different fields then. Mine is mostly
pulse-echo and other fast stuff. Often you have to catch some strange
effect out of the corner of your eye. Like a transformer working up a DC
runaway. Wait a few hundred milliseconds too long with some corrective
action and the whole chebang can disintegrate with an impressive bang.

Looks like the carpet in the lab has had enough of that stuff. So I am
mulling whether to put wood flooring in, and what kind of wood. Bamboo
is all the rage right now in the US but it has a light color.

 

[Robert Latest]

When I want to do
something unusual with the data I use the CSV import into Excel.
However, I am not an expert (yet) in VBA so I can't do any processing
on-the-fly. But I'll learn it. Was hoping it was C and not Basic but, oh
well, I guess that was Bill Gates' decision.

Why not skip Excel altogether? CSV is a primitive format (as the name
impiles); just gobble it up directly into your C program. If you need Excel
to process the result -- just let your C program spit out CSV data and use
that in Excel.

robert

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

I know, but then you are talking $5k and up. I mean, heck, even the old
Tek 2465 has delayed trigger. Bidding ist pretty active on EBay and Tek
is cutting into their own sales by not providing delayed trigger in
"modern" scopes. Because people like me tell clients to bid on a 2465.
And then they do. From a marketing point of view it makes absolutely no
sense.

The 2465 was a 15k$ machine, the high end, only to be
topped by the 20k$ 2467.
On the other hand the manufacturers have to motivate
the customers to get the better models.

Rene

 

[Joerg]

The 2465 was a 15k$ machine, the high end, only to be
topped by the 20k$ 2467.

Hmm, we never paid that much back then, even for a new one. Was that the
typical inflated "non-US" pricing?

On the other hand the manufacturers have to motivate
the customers to get the better models.

Yeah, but then two things can happen:

a. The competition deals them a low-blow. I am surprised that Instek did
not go for the catch here. Our marketeers in med electronics would have
never missed such an opportunity. Well, let's say most of them wouldn't.
I married one of them ....

b. The customers do what my clients do: They go on EBay and snatch a
spiffy Tek 2465 for around $500. Does the job, and then they don't need
the high-end DSOs. That, in a nutshell, is the worst nightmare that can
strike a manufacturer. Because now the need for a certain product has
vanished.

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:




Why not skip Excel altogether? CSV is a primitive format (as the name
impiles); just gobble it up directly into your C program. If you need Excel
to process the result -- just let your C program spit out CSV data and use
that in Excel.

Well, I'd like to keep it simple and without the need for others to load
some kind of executable. So here I am, learning Basic now. Never thought
I'd ever have to. It won't come easy because my typical tools are
scopes, analyzers and soldering irons.