Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?

J

John Doe

....
Just like Intel--their first microprocessor was developed for a
calculator, but the calculator company (Busicom) decided to drop
it and signed over all rights to Intel. And if these things had
not happened, we might not have microprocessors or PC operating
systems or even PCs today. So be glad.

I would be glad if Windows included highly functional speech input
and output. Input and output is a basic function of the operating
system. To disabled people, using a microphone and speakers is no
different than using a keyboard and monitor is to most of us.
Unfortunately, disabled people don't make Microsoft lots of money.
So even though speech will be part of the future personal computer
(or hybrid), we will have to wait until other software companies
develop it so Microsoft can easily buy or steal it. At the same
time, other companies are lazy about software development simply
because Microsoft can put them out of business by developing a lower
quality but Windows-integrated version of the same software.
 
J

Jasen Betts

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.basics.]
But it's true.


That's not the fault of the OS. There are some applications that will
run without special privileges.


No more so than for XP.


The same is true for XP.


Except that it's not.


If you're running a GUI, it's easy.


how so? in linux the GUI runs in user space, ditto the windowing subsystem,
it's only the video driver that has some priviledges,
I have the same background. XP is stable.

Linux and UNIX are quite insecure, compared to NT.

how so? I heard that Microsoft moved the webservers from NT to unix
(I think solaris or BSD) for security reasons a few years ago. Hmm,
they seem to be running IIS again now.
The driver is usually written by the hardware vendor. Many drivers
are very poorly written.

That's why linux admins like the hardware that has open source drivers.

Bye.
Jasen
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
Programmers are locked into Windows because it's the only operating
system that sells. Consumers buy Windows because programmers write
for it. It's called a "positive feedback loop" that keeps Windows
the desktop operating system monopoly.

Yes, but that is not Microsoft's doing, nor does Microsoft have to do
anything to maintain it. Indeed, Microsoft can't really change it,
either--the company has little choice but to continue to produce OS
environments that are compatible with the current Windows environment.
Anything else would be a huge and extremely risky gamble, and
Microsoft is now moving into that phase of a company's life when it
becomes very averse to risk.
Which is the lion's share of desktop computer software publishing.

Actually, no. Only a small fraction of desktop computer software is
operating systems and office-automation suites. For example, on the
computer I use at home, Microsoft software represents only about 5% of
the total dollar value of all the software on the computer. Which
means that for every dollar Microsoft makes selling software, other
companies are making about $19.
Other domains?

Yes. Computers are used for other things besides text processing and
spreadsheets, and in virtually every other application domain,
Microsoft is either non-existent or a very minor player.

Furthermore, Microsoft lacks the know-how to enter just about all of
these markets; the company writes software very well, but you have to
know more than just how to write software to crack a particular
application market. MS did well with Office because it helped define
the market by being one of the first to address it. It does fairly
well with software development tools because it has to use the tools
itself, and thus has learned how to build good ones. But it doesn't
know how to do anything else.
It will keep Microsoft in the desktop computer software publishing
business forever.

Forever is a long time. It's very difficult to change the status quo
in operating systems, but it has happened before, and sooner or later
it will happen again. My prediction is that eventually Microsoft will
push itself out of the market, by trying to force people into
expensive, bloated upgrades in order to maintain its revenue stream.
At some point they'll be pushed towards alternative operating systems.

If another publisher were to come up with an OS that ran Windows
applications transparently and flawlessly with no significant loss of
performance, the dominance of Microsoft would be severely threatened.
However, that is so difficult and expensive to do technically that I'm
not particularly concerned about it, and I don't think Microsoft is,
either.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
Prohibiting Microsoft from writing applications or favoring one
software publisher over another probably would level the software
playing field.

There's really no legal or ethical basis for such a prohibition, and
it would have no effect on the market, anyway, because Microsoft isn't
writing any significant applications to begin with. And Microsoft
isn't significantly favoring anyone, either.

Microsoft is in the position of having a reliable cash cow in the
Windows operating system, but it's also constrained by that position
because even Microsoft cannot really propose a new operating system,
unless it walks and talks just like the existing Windows OS. It went
out on a limb with Windows NT and that was uncomfortably uncertain for
years--and NT is an operating system that looks and feels just like
preceding versions of Windows to users. Trying something completely
new might not work at all, and with the cost of a new operating system
now in the billions of dollars, it's a dangerous gamble. And these
days Microsoft is becoming increasingly wary of gambling.
I'm not sure that multiple operating systems would be
a good idea.

It's not. From a consumer standpoint, standardization on a single
operating system is generally best. The only question is which
operating system would be technically ideal. Windows is nice but it's
probably not ideal. The competition (such as it is) is far worse,
however.
Maybe forcing Microsoft to open Windows source code
could be fashioned in some way to spur innovation.

There's no legal or ethical basis for this, either.
How to handle the operating system maker is a good question.

The best way to change things--if change is a good idea--is to come up
with a better operating system ... and one that will run everything
that Windows runs, because nobody is going to rewrite 250,000
applications overnight.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
Maybe your recollection is about the company Microsoft bought DOS
from.

No, he's thinking about Microsoft, a very tiny company back in those
days.
As far as I know, the major problem IBM had with Microsoft was
when Microsoft prohibited IBM from including IBM's own Lotus
SmartSuite on IBM's computers. Microsoft used Windows to force IBM's
compliance.

During the period under discussion, Microsoft wasn't in a position to
force anyone to do anything.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
I would be glad if Windows included highly functional speech input
and output.

There's very little demand for that, and it requires a lot of
horsepower. It also tends to be imprecise and error-prone.
Input and output is a basic function of the operating
system.

Most operating systems, including Windows, allow for third-party
drivers to be installed to support just about any device. If someone
writes drivers that allow a microphone and speaker to be substituted
for a keyboard and screen, Windows will support it just fine. Getting
voice input to work is hard enough, but converting all the visual
information in Windows to audible output is a Herculean task, and
requires skills and techniques that nobody actually has right now.
To disabled people, using a microphone and speakers is no
different than using a keyboard and monitor is to most of us.
Unfortunately, disabled people don't make Microsoft lots of money.

Disabled people don't make anyone lots of money. Even so, many
companies, including Microsoft, spend more money accommodating them
than such customers bring in.
So even though speech will be part of the future personal computer
(or hybrid) ...

It may, or it may not. I've never seen any proof that speech input
and output is in any way superior to the current arrangement. They
are handy when one cannot type or see, but if one can type and see,
they aren't that useful, except as novelties.
... we will have to wait until other software companies
develop it so Microsoft can easily buy or steal it.

Microsoft doesn't build specialized hardware or drivers for such
hardware, nor is it in the habit of stealing such things.
At the same time, other companies are lazy about software development simply
because Microsoft can put them out of business by developing a lower
quality but Windows-integrated version of the same software.

They are lazy about producing software for the disabled because they
don't see any money in it, and they are not operating as charities.
The market for such specialized hardware and software is too small to
allow the costs of development to be recovered in sales.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

It rhymes, which is neat, but what definition of "transpose" are you using,
none of the usual ones seem to fit the contect?
 
J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
John Doe writes:
Actually, no. Only a small fraction of desktop computer software
is operating systems and office-automation suites. For example,
on the computer I use at home, Microsoft software represents only
about 5% of the total dollar value of all the software on the
computer. Which means that for every dollar Microsoft makes
selling software, other companies are making about $19.

:)
You don't represent the vast majority of personal computer users.
Your last assertion does not follow.
Computers are used for other things besides text processing
and spreadsheets,

Like browsing the Internet. If Microsoft hadn't gotten into trouble
for destroying Netscape Navigator, we might be paying for Internet
Explorer too.
and in virtually every other application domain,
Microsoft is either non-existent or a very minor player.

I would just repeat my prior statement about the operating system
and office applications. I don't know where you got the idea those
were a small share of the applications market.

I will be happy to compare resources on the subject.
Furthermore, Microsoft lacks the know-how to enter just about all
of these markets; the company writes software very well, but you
have to know more than just how to write software to crack a
particular application market.

Microsoft can buy any programmers it needs.
MS did well with Office because it helped define
the market by being one of the first to address it.

Windows integration helps. New users are going to use what's there.
It does fairly well with software development tools because it has
to use the tools itself, and thus has learned how to build good
ones. But it doesn't know how to do anything else.

I agree that Microsoft produces decent software for its own use and
sells it to the rest of us. But competition is usually a better way
to innovation.
Forever is a long time. It's very difficult to change the status
quo in operating systems, but it has happened before,

Not in the personal computer operating system market.

and sooner or later
it will happen again. My prediction is that eventually Microsoft
will push itself out of the market, by trying to force people into
expensive, bloated upgrades in order to maintain its revenue
stream. At some point they'll be pushed towards alternative
operating systems.

Switching operating systems would be massively expensive and require
lots of coordination between consumers and programmers. Maybe if
everyone were desperate and had powerful political/media help.
 
B

BillW50

John Doe said:
...

Maybe your recollection is about the company Microsoft bought DOS
from. As far as I know, the major problem IBM had with Microsoft was
when Microsoft prohibited IBM from including IBM's own Lotus
SmartSuite on IBM's computers. Microsoft used Windows to force IBM's
compliance.

So? Microsoft had to do many things they didn't want to because IBM
forced them to do so. Steve Ballmer called it riding the bear. But
times have changed and IBM got a taste of their own medicine. And I
believe this is only fair. Why don't you?


__________________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
 
J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
John Doe writes:
There's really no legal or ethical basis for such a prohibition,

In your opinion.
and
it would have no effect on the market, anyway, because Microsoft
isn't writing any significant applications to begin with.

Still wondering where you got that idea.
And Microsoft isn't significantly favoring anyone, either.

Microsoft favors its own applications developers.
Microsoft is in the position of having a reliable cash cow in the
Windows operating system,

And its Office suite. Have you noticed how much a retail upgrade
version of Office costs? Microsoft gets at least $100 for its Works
suite.
It's not. From a consumer standpoint, standardization on a single
operating system is generally best.

Programmers choose the (monopoly) operating system. Consumers choose
applications (except for Office applications). There are other
monopolies, but they are minor in comparison to Windows and Office.
There's no legal or ethical basis for this, either.

The basis would be to spur innovation. Whether it is legal or
ethical is up to the government and its religious leaders I guess.
 
J

John Doe

BillW50 said:
....

There.

Microsoft had to do many things they didn't want to because IBM
forced them to do so. Steve Ballmer called it riding the bear. But
times have changed and IBM got a taste of their own medicine. And
I believe this is only fair. Why don't you?

That depends on what you're referring to. If you're referring to my
example of Microsoft using Windows to prevent competition with
Microsoft's applications, I believe that stifles innovation in the
applications software market. I really couldn't care less about the
politics. I don't care which team you are rooting for.
 
J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
There's very little demand for that,

I have a very great demand for that.
and it requires a lot of horsepower.

My system, probably no better than a current store-bought computer,
is running it just fine, input and output.
It also tends to be imprecise and error-prone.

That depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about
text to speech, it's very understandable even though probably not
very good sounding to most people. If you're talking about speech
recognition, yes it can be very frustrating.

Then again, some day that will be water under the bridge.
Most operating systems, including Windows, allow for third-party
drivers to be installed to support just about any device. If
someone writes drivers that allow a microphone and speaker to be
substituted for a keyboard and screen, Windows will support it
just fine.

Windows supports keyboard input all the way to the desktop and
program window. Microsoft should be doing the same with speech.
Getting
voice input to work is hard enough, but converting all the visual
information in Windows to audible output is a Herculean task, and
requires skills and techniques that nobody actually has right now.

Speech recognition is the difficult part. Screen reading is not
nearly as difficult.
Disabled people don't make anyone lots of money. Even so, many
companies, including Microsoft, spend more money accommodating
them than such customers bring in.

That sounds like pure guesswork and it's beside the point. I guess
it depends on whether you believe the disabled people should have
equal access. But again, as I stated below, it also has to do with
the future and how easily we get there.
It may, or it may not.

It certainly will.
I've never seen any proof that speech input
and output is in any way superior to the current arrangement.

Judging solely by your own experience I'm sure. Speech input is way
superior here on my machine. I hate to say this, and that's what I'm
doing, but current technology does require a good speaking voice and
the ability to properly configure sound input.
They
are handy when one cannot type or see, but if one can type and
see, they aren't that useful, except as novelties.

Sorry, but you're just making excuses for your own inability to use
the current technology.
Microsoft doesn't build specialized hardware or drivers for such
hardware,

There is no such special hardware. There are no special drivers.
nor is it in the habit of stealing such things.

Microsoft can bully its way into anything that has to do with
personal computers.
They are lazy about producing software for the disabled because
they don't see any money in it,

There isn't any money in producing software that Microsoft can
integrate into Windows. I guess Microsoft is limited to the most
popular software in order to be less obvious about it.

But in fact, other software publishers have already produced better
speech software that Microsoft, even though speech is a valid part
of the operating system. And indeed, whether Microsoft sees money in
it is the question.
and they are not operating as charities.

The future is not a charity.
The market for such specialized hardware and software is too small
to allow the costs of development to be recovered in sales.

In a prior post, you suggested the author you were replying to
should start writing applications for a different operating system.
Of course that's impractical because he wouldn't sell any copies. In
this argument, you are very much aware of the fact that costs of
development must be recovered.



--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Path: newssvr27.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 05:41:04 -0600
From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:41:01 +0100
Organization: Just Mxsmanic
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B

BillW50

That depends on what you're referring to. If you're referring to my
example of Microsoft using Windows to prevent competition with
Microsoft's applications, I believe that stifles innovation in the
applications software market. I really couldn't care less about the
politics. I don't care which team you are rooting for.

How did Microsoft prevent competition? As the end user had no
problems installing Lotus SmartSuite if they wanted to. So no
problems there. And MS Office is not free anyway, again no problems
there.

And there has been awhile now, Sun's OpenOffice which can be had for
free! Claims to open MS Office files and all. If it were any good,
it would wipe out MS Office off of the map for sure. But the truth
is, it ain't as good. Thus it still isn't a threat to MS.

You somehow believe MS stifles competition. While I believe just the
opposite. As at anytime, anybody can come along and actually do
something better than Microsoft. And often it does happen in niche
areas of Windows and it has made them (not MS) rich. This has been
great for competition. Because when something comes out better, MS
plays catch up to try to match or exceed their competition.

I actually believe Windows is the de facto desktop today because of
competition. As there were other competitors for a GUI on top of DOS
like GEM and GEOS. And they were doing well until Apple sued
Microsoft for the look and feel. And MS quickly improved Windows to
be as good and sometimes better than the competition. In this case,
in all of them (GEM, GEOS, and the Mac).

So don't tell me that Microsoft stifles competition. Because that
just ain't so! Although I would agree that Microsoft has enough
resources to usually come out on top. Maybe that is what you really
have a problem with.


__________________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
You don't represent the vast majority of personal computer users.
Your last assertion does not follow.

Traditionally most PCs have been used in business, not at home, so
most PC users have even more expensive software installed than I do.
It's true that those who are at home may not have as much, especially
when you consider how much they've probably pirated.
Like browsing the Internet. If Microsoft hadn't gotten into trouble
for destroying Netscape Navigator, we might be paying for Internet
Explorer too.

Microsoft didn't destroy Netscape. Netscape was almost unbelievably
poorly managed. It was self-destructing without Microsoft's help.
Read the story of Netscape; it's amazing.
I would just repeat my prior statement about the operating system
and office applications. I don't know where you got the idea those
were a small share of the applications market.

They are a small percentage of the applications available. I don't
even have Office on my computer; it's too bloated and expensive, and I
haven't found a use for it.
Microsoft can buy any programmers it needs.

Programmers that are both good at programming and experts in a
specific applications field and are superb systems analysts are
scarce, at any price. And you need lots and lots of them to build new
applications. Additionally, you need a complete chain of command that
understands the business, not just programmers and analysts.
Windows integration helps. New users are going to use what's there.

Yes. Microsoft did it, and others did not.
I agree that Microsoft produces decent software for its own use and
sells it to the rest of us. But competition is usually a better way
to innovation.

There _is_ competition, but it's not very good. Borland was another
case of bad management, even when they were beating Microsoft.

In fact, in many cases, it's not that Microsoft made the right
decisions so much as the competition consistently made the wrong
decisions.

There have been resounding Microsoft failures, such as the oft-cited
Microsoft Bob, but also things like Photo Draw 2000, which was a joke
(Image Composer, which MS had bought earlier, was much better, but MS
still abandoned it, thinking it could rewrite something superior from
scratch--MS was wrong).

Microsoft still has a hard time with database servers, since it knows
nothing about database production environments. The same handicap
keeps it behind the curve in the server market as well.

What Microsoft does, it does well. But it really has a hard time
learning new things.
Not in the personal computer operating system market.

From the Mac to Windows. From MS-DOS to Windows. From CP/M to
MS-DOS. And so on.

Granted, the greater the inertia, the slower the change.
Switching operating systems would be massively expensive and require
lots of coordination between consumers and programmers. Maybe if
everyone were desperate and had powerful political/media help.

Well, right now, everyone is happy with Microsoft Windows, except for
a handful of whining geeks who want to change things. The average
business or home user, though, gets everything he needs from Windows,
and has no reason whatsoever to change. In fact, a sudden change
would be bad for consumers, not good, no matter how much it might
please the geeks.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
In your opinion.

Deliberately crippling a company that is successful is never a good
idea, and historically has had either no effect or a negative effect.
Still wondering where you got that idea.

As I've explained, Microsoft builds operating systems, and a suite of
office-automation applications. And that's essentially it. Almost
all its revenue comes from these two product areas (especially the
latter).
Microsoft favors its own applications developers.

No doubt, but that's what companies are supposed to do. However, the
only applications it develops are Office applications.
And its Office suite. Have you noticed how much a retail upgrade
version of Office costs? Microsoft gets at least $100 for its Works
suite.

Most of Microsoft's revenue comes from Office. Works is not worth
buying, and indeed MS gives it away sometimes.
Programmers choose the (monopoly) operating system. Consumers choose
applications (except for Office applications). There are other
monopolies, but they are minor in comparison to Windows and Office.

So what? Who is losing here? Not the programmers writing for
Windows. Not the consumers using it. Not Microsoft. Not the
publishers of those other 249,998 Windows applications. Where is the
problem, exactly?
The basis would be to spur innovation.

How much innovation do you expect when companies know that their
intellectual property will be seized and placed in the public domain
if they become too successful?
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
That depends on what you're referring to. If you're referring to my
example of Microsoft using Windows to prevent competition with
Microsoft's applications, I believe that stifles innovation in the
applications software market.

Exactly how does Microsoft use Windows to "prevent competition with
Microsoft's applications," and why does it even matter, given that
Microsoft only really sells one application?
I really couldn't care less about the politics. I don't care
which team you are rooting for.

People who root for teams are in for disappointment. It's all just
business.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
I have a very great demand for that.

As you pointed out to me, you may not be representative.
My system, probably no better than a current store-bought computer,
is running it just fine, input and output.

If it's fast enough, it should.
That depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about
text to speech, it's very understandable even though probably not
very good sounding to most people. If you're talking about speech
recognition, yes it can be very frustrating.

I'm talking about both. The slowness and lack of accuracy of speech
systems holds them back. That's why people tend not to use them
unless they have to. I'd much rather type than have to speak to my
computer to write things. It would take forever with speech.
Windows supports keyboard input all the way to the desktop and
program window. Microsoft should be doing the same with speech.

Why? There's almost no demand for it.
Speech recognition is the difficult part. Screen reading is not
nearly as difficult.

Both are extremely difficult if you want truly integrated solutions.
That sounds like pure guesswork and it's beside the point.

It's not pure guesswork. Virtually without exception, putting in
features for a tiny minority of users is a net loss. Companies only
do it for PR, out of corporate conscience, or when the law requires
it. They certainly don't do it to make money.
I guess it depends on whether you believe the disabled people
should have equal access.

Within reason, I believe they should. But I do not believe that vast
resources should be spent on accommodating them when the same
resources could do more good for a larger number of people if spent in
a different way.
Judging solely by your own experience I'm sure. Speech input is way
superior here on my machine. I hate to say this, and that's what I'm
doing, but current technology does require a good speaking voice and
the ability to properly configure sound input.

That's the easy part. Just as generating sound is the easy part of
speech synthesis. The hard part is compressing information into an
audio channel, and making sense of input or reformatting output to fit
it.
Sorry, but you're just making excuses for your own inability to use
the current technology.

Which technology am I unable to use?
There is no such special hardware. There are no special drivers.

If you want to do it right, you need hardware solutions.
Microsoft can bully its way into anything that has to do with
personal computers.

No, it can't. There are a lot of clever and/or well-funded
competitors out there. Not every company is as stupid as Netscape.
There isn't any money in producing software that Microsoft can
integrate into Windows. I guess Microsoft is limited to the most
popular software in order to be less obvious about it.

Microsoft builds what sells. That's business.
But in fact, other software publishers have already produced better
speech software that Microsoft, even though speech is a valid part
of the operating system.

Speech is no more a "valid" part of the operating system than text.
And indeed, whether Microsoft sees money in it is the question.

Whether any company does. For extreme niche markets, small companies
are usually better at turning a profit than large companies.
The future is not a charity.

The future will be just like the present.
In a prior post, you suggested the author you were replying to
should start writing applications for a different operating system.
Of course that's impractical because he wouldn't sell any copies. In
this argument, you are very much aware of the fact that costs of
development must be recovered.

In that prior post, I was making it obvious why people _don't_ write
applications for obscure operating systems.
 
M

Mxsmanic

Jasen said:
It rhymes, which is neat, but what definition of "transpose" are you using,
none of the usual ones seem to fit the contect?

Swap.
 
M

Mxsmanic

Jasen said:
how so? in linux the GUI runs in user space, ditto the windowing subsystem,
it's only the video driver that has some priviledges,

GUIs by their very nature are complex and destabilizing elements in an
operating system. And they can never run entirely in user space; they
always must perform certain critical functions with special
privileges, and a bug in those functions will crash the entire system
(and unfortunately bugs are very common).

GUIs need privileges because that's the only way to make them
performant. Even with today's processors, most of the CPU time used
by PCs is spent in the GUI. Try to make it all run in user space and
99% of the CPU time goes to the GUI, slowing the system to a crawl.
Often hardware assistance is required, and in that case you need more
privileged code.

UNIX has an extremely simple security model. For example, there is
only root, which can do anything, and normal users, which can do
nothing. Access control lists are very simple (owner, group,
universe) and no mandatory access control is possible. There are many
other problems with UNIX. Multics was much better, but it was slow,
and UNIX helped performance by including virtually none of the tight
security features of Multics.

Windows NT, on the other hand, has very extensive security features,
only a fraction of which are currently exposed to the user.
I heard that Microsoft moved the webservers from NT to unix
(I think solaris or BSD) for security reasons a few years ago. Hmm,
they seem to be running IIS again now.

I'm not sure where you heard that, but Microsoft has been running
Windows with IIS on its Web servers for just about as long as IIS has
been around. And even if they ever had run UNIX, it surely would not
be for security reasons, since NT is much more secure.
That's why linux admins like the hardware that has open source drivers.

That doesn't help normal users.
 
B

BillW50

I have a very great demand for that.

Are you visually impaired?
My system, probably no better than a current store-bought computer,
is running it just fine, input and output.

I'm using a Celeron 400MHZ with 192MB of RAM under Windows 2000. And
it hits really hard here.
That depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about
text to speech, it's very understandable even though probably not
very good sounding to most people. If you're talking about speech
recognition, yes it can be very frustrating.

Then again, some day that will be water under the bridge.
Hopefully.


Windows supports keyboard input all the way to the desktop and
program window. Microsoft should be doing the same with speech.

Huh? Windows has text to speech built right into it.

Narrator is intended to help people with low vision to setup
their own computers, or use other people's computers. Narrator
may not perform well with some applications. Most users with
visual impairments will need a utility with higher
functionality for daily use.

For a list of Windows-based screen reader utilities, see
http://www.microsoft.com/enable/
Speech recognition is the difficult part. Screen reading is not
nearly as difficult.

Screen reading is right there in at least Windows 2000/XP.
That sounds like pure guesswork and it's beside the point. I guess
it depends on whether you believe the disabled people should have
equal access. But again, as I stated below, it also has to do with
the future and how easily we get there.

You know some people can push this disabled stuff too far. So where
do you draw the line? For example, real disabled people still can't
get good parking. Yet zillions of dollars were forced from people's
pockets to build them. And one of the lawyers who did the forcing
and made probably zillions of dollars, didn't even have handicap
parking at his own office (this was on like 20/20 or something). Go
figure! It always comes down to it's about the money and who is
going to pay for it, now isn't it?
It certainly will.

I'm not betting on that. As humans have a clear advantage over
computers when it comes to speech recognition. And I haven't even
heard of a workable theory in how computers could ever surpass
humans in this area.
Judging solely by your own experience I'm sure. Speech input is way
superior here on my machine. I hate to say this, and that's what I'm
doing, but current technology does require a good speaking voice and
the ability to properly configure sound input.

Sorry, but you're just making excuses for your own inability to use
the current technology.

Huh? The current technology in this area is very frustrating.
There is no such special hardware. There are no special drivers.

You need a microphone and speakers for one. And I don't know how
anybody can reroute the keyboard to a mic and the screen output to
speakers without added drivers? So you're saying that Windows has
this ability built in? Gee and here I thought you were saying it
does not.
Microsoft can bully its way into anything that has to do with
personal computers.

Not so. They would like to make Linux disappear and can't for
starters. They probably would like IBM to fade away and can't. And I
bet they wished they didn't have to improve their products when
someone comes out with something better. And lastly, Microsoft has
no power over the end user! As the end user can choose what they
want to do with their money.
There isn't any money in producing software that Microsoft can
integrate into Windows. I guess Microsoft is limited to the most
popular software in order to be less obvious about it.

Can you elaborate?
But in fact, other software publishers have already produced better
speech software that Microsoft, even though speech is a valid part
of the operating system. And indeed, whether Microsoft sees money in
it is the question.

The future is not a charity.

Well Bill Gates has given millions of dollars to charity all of the
time. And while the future is not a charity, the future also isn't
here yet as well.
In a prior post, you suggested the author you were replying to
should start writing applications for a different operating system.
Of course that's impractical because he wouldn't sell any copies. In
this argument, you are very much aware of the fact that costs of
development must be recovered.

Are you aware that Microsoft does have disability features built
into Windows itself right now? And offers a web page for other
solutions between Windows for the disabled? How can you imply they
are not doing anything about it?


__________________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
 
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