Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?

M

Mxsmanic

David said:
Perhaps but it's not unusual for the 'engineer', or geek type, who often
like to 'build the best', or so they believe, and then blame limited
acceptance on the 'stupidity' of the buyer, or a market conspiracy.

The engineer is probably right, in a sense, but that won't pay the
bills. Apple has come up with many interesting innovations, but it is
rather blind in its belief that its ideas are the _best_ ideas, and
it's also very obstinate in not backing down on its principles. I
suppose that's commendable, in a way, but it doesn't bring in
business. If I truly believed Apple to be the best, I might invest in
it, but although Apple is distinctive, I'm not at all convinced that
it's the best, so paying a price premium for it (and spending eternity
under Apple's thumb for both the hardware and the OS) isn't justified.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure it was Apple's closed box approach that
was so much the 'mistake', after all, they all were at that time, as it was
IBM's mishandling of the PC, which threw it open to a flood of clones,
along with Microsoft providing the missing link of a competent O.S..
Although, if Microsoft hadn't someone else surely would have because that
became too big a market to ignore.

But Apple might have fared much better if the market had remained
proprietary system vs proprietary system, as it had always been.

As I recall, I skipped Apple just because it was far too expensive. I
liked the concepts and the look and feel and so on, but not enough to
pay such a severe price premium. Also, at work we used PCs from the
beginning for everything except secretarial workstations, because they
could easily be customized to work with our mainframes, whereas with
Macs, there was either the Apple way or the highway.
But I'm not quite as willing to blame it all on 'corruption' as I am on the
complexities of large hierarchical organizations populated by imperfect
human beings. You don't have to be 'corrupt' to screw up ;)

Point taken. I guess it's easy to find ten smart people, but much
more difficult to find 40,000 smart people. Eventually, you get a lot
of stupid people in the company.
On the other hand, a well established path to corporate doom is for the
entrepreneur who started it to try running the whole she-bang as it grows
beyond the ability of any one person to manage.

Yes, but conversely, the beginning of the end for many companies is
marked by the departure of the founder(s). Disney, Hewlett-Packard,
Microsoft, IBM ... the list goes on and on. Notice that Microsoft has
changed since Bill Gates left.
But after IBM's debacle with issuing BIOS source one can surely see why
Microsoft doesn't do it.

IBM had a history of publishing source, which was the norm at one time
for mainframes. Microsoft never had any exposure to that.
Again, I think it's more fundamental. I mean, a 'soaring success' is often
started by a 'great idea' but markets change, products mature, competitors
move in, so where does the next 'great idea' come from? It isn't as if
they're a dime a dozen, you know ;)

If the first great idea was pure luck, that's true. But if it was the
product of a really smart group of people, they should be able to come
up with other great ideas.
What, in particular, do you have in mind?

Since Bill Gates assumed a background role, Microsoft has shown
distinctly less innovation and much more bottom-line-style management.
Steve Ballmer is a businessman rather than a geek, but he has no prior
experience, and now he's in charge of a multi-zillion dollar company.
Inevitably, mistakes are made, and eventually too many mistakes will
be made and the company will being its downward slide. Like so many
big companies, Microsoft will commit suicide; it won't be killed by
the competition.
 
J

Jasen Betts

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.basics.]
That is my impression, also. Worse yet, the "Apple way" isn't
necessarily the best way from a technical standpoint--it's just
Apple's way. If everything they did was unquestionably superior to
everyone else's way of doing things, they might have something, but
that's not the case. And even if it were, most people don't care much
about computers, and given a choice between a $500 machine that gets
the job done and a $1500 machine that is "technically superior,"
they'll buy the $500 machine.

Or they'll buy a $1500 "PC" that's probably technically superior to the apple.

Apple do use quality parts in their machines, but quality PC parts, and
complete systems, are available too.
Most of the peole saying this can't remember anything earlier than
about 1992 or so. At the time that Microsoft was dealing with IBM, of
course, _Microsoft_ was the underdog, and IBM was the Great Satan. In
those days, it was fashionable for angry young men to hate IBM and
root for Microsoft.

??? back in 92 I was dissapointed by the lack of quality in microsoft
products proactically everything they did seemed incomplete.

In 93 when the first "distribution" of linux came out I scored a copy of a
friend ("Soft Landing System" - 20 5.25" floppies) and installed it on my
4 meg 25Mhz 386DX

I could compile the kernel, format a floppy, play tetris for terminals,
and download stuff using kermit (or a modified version of DSZRZ) all at
once.


Bye.
Jasen
 
P

PWY

David Maynard said:
I'm really enjoying your messages because it's so refreshing to hear
rational sanity on USENET.

Thay makes two of us at least.
 
P

PWY

Mxsmanic said:
If you're going to talk about making computers more accessible, you're
going to have to offer solutions that don't require the latest,
fastest, most expensive hardware available. A lot of people are
running machines much slower than 400 MHz, and they cannot afford to
buy new hardware. What do you suggest for them?


Why can't people use the computers they already have?


Not really. Most of these aren't running unless the user starts them.


Bigger and faster than 99.99% of all computers in the world. Hardly
representative.


The only voice I see is Sam.


What built-in text-to-speech function is available on Linux? What
about the Mac? What about OS/2?


I did. Works well enough to get by. If someone wants a deluxe
system, he can go out and buy one (after all, according to you, he can
afford a top-of-the-line PC).


Programming it to do so would be prohibitively expensive.


No, the real reason is that Microsoft servers are technically somewhat
inferior to UNIX servers for most purposes. It has nothing to do with
intelligence or product quality. Windows servers are of excellent
quality, but they are more poorly suited to server roles than the
simpler UNIX and Linux operating systems are, in most cases. Also,
Windows is much more expensive, which makes a difference especially
when one is purchasing thousands of licenses at a time.


So what do you suggest? Should application developers be prohibited
from writing software for Windows and forced to develop software for
the current underdog operating systems?


Apple should have gone out of business long ago, based on its
incompetence alone. It clings to life because it has a very loyal
customer base.


Summarize it, then.



At last.
I have followed this thread from the beggining waiting for the subject of
Bill Gates' money to be introduced, as these fanatical Microsoft bashers
always seem to reach that point in their arguments.
This has been a very informative thread and I wish to congratulate the other
posters on their self restraint and knowledge of the facts.

PWY
 
E

Ed Medlin

David Maynard said:
I'm really enjoying your messages because it's so refreshing to hear
rational sanity on USENET.

Damn right David. I have enjoyed this thread more than any for
awhile.......:). I have no need to add anything......

Ed
 
J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
Microsoft does almost all its business in operating systems and its
Office suite. It has very little competition in both domains. It
does not and cannot compete in any of the other thousands of
application domains for PCs in the world, and even if it tried, it
would be up against a lot of well-entrenched competition. The
concerns about monopoly are thus exaggerated and not always well
placed.

That is entirely false. Read how Microsoft crushed Netscape Navigator.
http://usvms.gpo.gov/findfact.html
Microsoft will eventually self-destruct.

Just like IBM self-destructed. Just like Ford Motor Co. self-destructed. Just like Standard Oil self-destructed (actually had serious antitrust problems).

Pure speculation. But in fact, Microsoft has a stranglehold on the personal computer software market. Only a few believed personal computers are going away could you believe Microsoft is going away.
So those who hate Microsoft need only be patient. A

Microsoft should be corrected to spur competition among all of the other capable software developers here in the United States.

Those who love communism most appreciate Microsoft's monopolies.

If you believe Microsoft is okay, then you are just ignorant of the facts.
Not necessarily. A lot of public utilities are run as regulated
monopolies,

And in fact, there's very little difference.
Some parts do, some parts don't.

What part of "competition" don't you understand?
We don't have competition for the
military.
lol

Sometimes monopolies serve society better. Usually they have to be
heavily regulated if they are turned over to private concerns in order
to prevent abuse, though.

That's why Microsoft has had so much legal trouble. Then George Bush Jr. came along, and his might-makes-right justice system let up on correcting Microsoft.

<Snipped silliness>
From whom? Not ordinary consumers.

I guess you haven't interacted with consumers.
They are extremely meaningful to the companies that produce them.

Without a single dominant platform for applications,

I have plainly stated at least once already that multiple platforms might not be a good idea.
Why just Microsoft? Lots of companies are just as successful as
Microsoft. What property do you propose to seize from them?

I would seize a baseball bat from anybody who aggressively bludgeons another person to death. I could not care less whether you legally acquired and own that baseball bat.

What part of "justice" don't you understand?
Why aren't you complaining about Intel, for example?

Because I'm using AMD very well.


--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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J

John Doe

I didn't have to wait for the system to tell me that Microsoft owns
personal computer software. I provided that proof for your benefit.
Obviously you have some very strange views about Microsoft's
dominance.

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One year, Microsoft pumped $650 million into our judicial system.
That same system clearly settled that Microsoft holds monopoly
power over the desktop operating system market.

From the federal district court of the United States.

"Microsoft possesses monopoly power in the market for
Intel-compatible PC operating systems."

From the federal appeals court of the United States.

"... we uphold the District Court's finding of monopoly power in its
entirety."

There ain't no doubt about it.

"BillW50" <BillW50 aol.kom> wrote:

Oh please! I had lost faith in the system when victims mostly gets
screwed and the accused gets off lightly. And that doesn't count
either. The real truth is the one with the most bucks usually wins.
Did anything ever change with Microsoft, no not really after the
ruling.

And even if you believe in the system, do you believe the judge and
jury is going to understand anything about geeks and lines of code?
One in a thousand might, but that is the bright side of things.

It is as plain as day to me, that Microsoft appears as a monopoly
because Microsoft's competitors are whinny cry baby morons! They
can't program their way out of a wet paper bag! And because they are
so bad, they blame not themselves, but because Microsoft did it to
them. Judges and juries like hearing this. But they are totally
clueless when it comes right down to Microsoft competitors are
 
J

John Doe

Are you saying that you don't recognize/understand that Windows is
the monopoly operating system on personal computers?

Most computer savvy users knew that long before it was concretely
decided in our federal courts.
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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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John said:
One year, Microsoft pumped $650 million into our judicial system.
That same system clearly settled that Microsoft holds monopoly
power over the desktop operating system market.

From the federal district court of the United States.

"Microsoft possesses monopoly power in the market for
Intel-compatible PC operating systems."

From the federal appeals court of the United States.

"... we uphold the District Court's finding of monopoly power in its
entirety."

There ain't no doubt about it.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make it so.

Court decisions don't establish reality, and they are independent of
market and business forces.
 
J

John Doe

No, he is actually claiming that Microsoft does not hold monopoly
power through windows. Are you agreeing with that trollish idea?
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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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John said:
So you are trying to say that you really do not understand Microsoft
holds monopoly power over the personal computer operating system
market?

He is demonstrating that he understands how the market really works.
 
J

John Doe

Do you understand that Microsoft holds monopoly power over the
desktop operating system market? Or are you just a troll?
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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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John said:
If you don't recognize/understand that Microsoft holds monopoly
power over the personal computer desktop operating system market,
then your arguments are probably meaningless to most people.

His arguments seem a lot more objective and less emotional than most
that one hears on USENET.

All large companies tend to commit certain abuses at some point in
their lifecycles, but contrary to widely held misconceptions, in the
greater scheme of things their abuses rarely make much of a dent in
their success or anyone else's failure. In order to do such things to
begin with, they need to have a dominant position, and if they have a
dominant position, doing bad things doesn't make it much more
dominant. And if they are poorly managed overall, they will go down
with or without abuses, as unethical practices alone will not save a
company that is fundamentally incompetently managed.

This has been proven again and again historically.
 
J

John Doe

The whole document is full of salient points.

Do you really believe that Microsoft does not hold monopoly power
over the desktop operating system market? Or are you just a troll.
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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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John said:
There is no easy answer. Here is a short course.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

Summarize the salient points. You must have developed your opinion
based on something; describe what it was.
 
J

John Doe

David Maynard said:
John Doe wrote:
....
IBM was competing with OS/2. And if they weren't then why the hell
did they keep trying to sell it?

The findings of fact explain what you need to know.

http://usvms.gpo.gov/findfact.html

It's good reading.
That's irrelevant to giving discounts to your competition.

You're too scared to voice your opinion on the subject. That is
rather telling. If you acknowledge the obvious, what most of us knew
long before the big antitrust trial, that Microsoft holds monopoly
power, you might endanger your business status with Microsoft. If
you say Microsoft doesn't hold monopoly power, then you lump
yourself in with the few remaining zealots who defend Microsoft.
Otherwise, why won't you say one way or the other?

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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer
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J

John Doe

This troll is whining about Bill Gates bashing. But in fact, his
side entered the argument.

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If you're going to talk about making computers more accessible, you're
going to have to offer solutions that don't require the latest,
fastest, most expensive hardware available. A lot of people are
running machines much slower than 400 MHz, and they cannot afford to
buy new hardware. What do you suggest for them?


Why can't people use the computers they already have?


Not really. Most of these aren't running unless the user starts them.


Bigger and faster than 99.99% of all computers in the world. Hardly
representative.


The only voice I see is Sam.


What built-in text-to-speech function is available on Linux? What
about the Mac? What about OS/2?


I did. Works well enough to get by. If someone wants a deluxe
system, he can go out and buy one (after all, according to you, he can
afford a top-of-the-line PC).


Programming it to do so would be prohibitively expensive.


No, the real reason is that Microsoft servers are technically somewhat
inferior to UNIX servers for most purposes. It has nothing to do with
intelligence or product quality. Windows servers are of excellent
quality, but they are more poorly suited to server roles than the
simpler UNIX and Linux operating systems are, in most cases. Also,
Windows is much more expensive, which makes a difference especially
when one is purchasing thousands of licenses at a time.


So what do you suggest? Should application developers be prohibited
from writing software for Windows and forced to develop software for
the current underdog operating systems?


Apple should have gone out of business long ago, based on its
incompetence alone. It clings to life because it has a very loyal
customer base.


Summarize it, then.



At last.
I have followed this thread from the beggining waiting for the subject of
Bill Gates' money to be introduced, as these fanatical Microsoft bashers
always seem to reach that point in their arguments.
This has been a very informative thread and I wish to congratulate the other
posters on their self restraint and knowledge of the facts.

PWY





Not true. I could spend it all in a year. But he gives a lot of his
money away.


He has given away billions, not millions, and it has made a dent.


They are more concerned than they need to be. They could just ignore
it.


There are serious security issues with such a facility, and I doubt
that it was used very much, even by the disabled.


Scripting is a vector for viruses. System-wide scripting would be a
security nightmare.
 
D

DBLEXPOSURE

Interesting take on why computer clocks can't keep time.
Those who love communism most appreciate Microsoft's monopolies.

What?!!

Microsoft is a capitalist's wet dream.


25 different OS's and nobody being able to share files or communicate would
be better for the economy?

I wonder what a program like Photoshop would cost if Adobe had to write 15
different version so it could run on every possible OS. I wonder if
Photoshop would even exist in a world with that many different OS's.

Fact is, Microsoft is an example of what can be achieved via Capitalism. Do
you really think that a company of this magnitude would have ever emerged
out of the Soviet union or any other Communist country..?

You don't have to like Microsoft but calling it Communism is just silly.









John Doe said:
Mxsmanic said:
Microsoft does almost all its business in operating systems and its
Office suite. It has very little competition in both domains. It
does not and cannot compete in any of the other thousands of
application domains for PCs in the world, and even if it tried, it
would be up against a lot of well-entrenched competition. The
concerns about monopoly are thus exaggerated and not always well
placed.

That is entirely false. Read how Microsoft crushed Netscape Navigator.
http://usvms.gpo.gov/findfact.html
Microsoft will eventually self-destruct.

Just like IBM self-destructed. Just like Ford Motor Co. self-destructed.
Just like Standard Oil self-destructed (actually had serious antitrust
problems).

Pure speculation. But in fact, Microsoft has a stranglehold on the
personal computer software market. Only a few believed personal computers
are going away could you believe Microsoft is going away.
So those who hate Microsoft need only be patient. A

Microsoft should be corrected to spur competition among all of the other
capable software developers here in the United States.

Those who love communism most appreciate Microsoft's monopolies.

If you believe Microsoft is okay, then you are just ignorant of the facts.
Not necessarily. A lot of public utilities are run as regulated
monopolies,

And in fact, there's very little difference.
Some parts do, some parts don't.

What part of "competition" don't you understand?
We don't have competition for the
military.
lol

Sometimes monopolies serve society better. Usually they have to be
heavily regulated if they are turned over to private concerns in order
to prevent abuse, though.

That's why Microsoft has had so much legal trouble. Then George Bush Jr.
came along, and his might-makes-right justice system let up on correcting
Microsoft.

From whom? Not ordinary consumers.

I guess you haven't interacted with consumers.
They are extremely meaningful to the companies that produce them.

Without a single dominant platform for applications,

I have plainly stated at least once already that multiple platforms might
not be a good idea.
Why just Microsoft? Lots of companies are just as successful as
Microsoft. What property do you propose to seize from them?

I would seize a baseball bat from anybody who aggressively bludgeons
another person to death. I could not care less whether you legally
acquired and own that baseball bat.

What part of "justice" don't you understand?
Why aren't you complaining about Intel, for example?

Because I'm using AMD very well.


--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


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Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as
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B

BillW50

I didn't have to wait for the system to tell me that Microsoft
owns personal computer software.

Me neither. Yes Microsoft does develop personal computer software.
But so does thousands of other companies as well. So this rules out
Microsoft as a monopoly.
I provided that proof for your benefit.

Your proof is from known liars who hides the truth under the
umbrella of nation security and many other things.
Obviously you have some very strange views about Microsoft's
dominance.

I have no strange views about Microsoft's dominance. I freely admit
they have a huge following using their software. Although what the
*facts* don't show is how this dominance means that Microsoft has a
monopoly in the PC market.

That is ridiculous! How can that be? As they would had to have
complete control over the PC. This isn't the case at all. As
Microsoft's largest threat is probably Linux. So get that silly idea
out of your head, because it just isn't so. As there are
probably millions of PCs not running any MS product at all. And you
are totally ignoring this *fact*. Why is that?

Is it because the lying system told you so? Thus are you trying us
to believe known liars? Why? I easily shown you how ridiculous
calling Microsoft a monopoly sounds by using the known *facts*.
Don't follow others in their ignorance, think for yourself.


__________________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
That is entirely false. Read how Microsoft crushed Netscape Navigator.
http://usvms.gpo.gov/findfact.html

As hard as it may be to believe, the declaration of a court is not any
kind of final or universal authority, except in legal terms.
Just like IBM self-destructed. Just like Ford Motor Co. self-destructed.
Just like Standard Oil self-destructed (actually had serious antitrust
problems).
Exactly.

Pure speculation. But in fact, Microsoft has a stranglehold on the
personal computer software market.

Microsoft has a near-monopoly on PC operating systems. That's about
it.
Only a few believed personal computers are going away could you
believe Microsoft is going away.

I don't understand this statement.
Microsoft should be corrected to spur competition among all of the
other capable software developers here in the United States.

Legal "corrections" are notorious for their ineffectiveness. Market
forces are much more balanced and reliable, even if they don't move as
quickly as some might like.
Those who love communism most appreciate Microsoft's monopolies.

I don't see a connection between the two.
If you believe Microsoft is okay, then you are just ignorant of
the facts.

Or I simply disagree with you, which is not the same thing.
And in fact, there's very little difference.

In some respects. Why don't you clamor for the break-up of public
utilities, then?
What part of "competition" don't you understand?

I understand it, but I also know that it's not always desirable.

I wasn't joking. Why do you think there is no competition for the
military?
That's why Microsoft has had so much legal trouble.

Microsoft has had a lot of legal trouble because it has made a lot of
well-funded enemies by virtue of its exceptional performance.
I guess you haven't interacted with consumers.

I've been doing it for most of my life.
I have plainly stated at least once already that multiple platforms
might not be a good idea.

Then why do you seem to object to Windows as a single platform?
I would seize a baseball bat from anybody who aggressively bludgeons
another person to death. I could not care less whether you legally
acquired and own that baseball bat.

You'd prefer to let that mass murderer with the machine gun continue
to shoot at innocent bystanders?
What part of "justice" don't you understand?

There isn't any part that I don't understand. I understand it only
too well. Do you know why the personification of justice is
blindfolded?
Because I'm using AMD very well.

Maybe you should buy a Mac.
 
M

Mxsmanic

Jasen said:
??? back in 92 I was dissapointed by the lack of quality in microsoft
products proactically everything they did seemed incomplete.

But 1992 wasn't very long ago. Think back further.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
Are you saying that you don't recognize/understand that Windows is
the monopoly operating system on personal computers?

I'm saying that repeating the same statement a hundred times doesn't
make it any more valid or cogent than it was on the first iteration.
Most computer savvy users knew that long before it was concretely
decided in our federal courts.

Federal courts don't make such decisions in reality, they only make
such decisions within the framework of the courts.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
You're too scared to voice your opinion on the subject. That is
rather telling.

You're attempting to bolster your position with personal attacks.
That is rather telling, too.
Otherwise, why won't you say one way or the other?

Because not everyone treats operating systems as religions, and
reality is much more complex and subtle than black and white.
 
M

Mxsmanic

PWY said:
I have followed this thread from the beggining waiting for the subject of
Bill Gates' money to be introduced, as these fanatical Microsoft bashers
always seem to reach that point in their arguments.

A great many of them are burning with envy of Gates' wealth, and this
is what motivates them to bash Microsoft.

Some people cannot accept the possibility that anyone might do
something better than they can, and so they insist on believing that
anyone who appears to be doing better has "cheated" somehow. Many
people can't accept the fact that Bill Gates became rich by
intelligently managing a computer software company, because they
cannot imagine how anyone could be smarter than themselves.

Most of the other reasons for Microsoft-bashing run along the same
lines. For example, some people find fault with Microsoft simply
because Microsoft would not hire them.
 
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