Whole house surge suppressors

[John Gilmer]

Take, for example, series mode protectors from Zerosurge,
Brickwall, and Surgex. Good piece of design. However notice
the soft underbelly. There is this little thing called a
safety ground that completely bypasses a series mode
protector. If the building is not 'shunt mode' protected
right at the single point earth ground as described
previously, then a series mode protector is easily bypassed -
ineffective.

You say that, but your defy sense.

Your local protection will shunt transients to "local" ground. But "local"
ground is ALL your equipment sees. It doesn't make any difference to me
if my "local" ground even is connected to the "single point ground" back at
the service entrance.

 

[Tom MacIntyre]

Not much I can say without many the technical details of
that test. How do we make 'whole house' protection work in
telephone exchanges? One preferred characteristic is the
'whole house' protector mounted directly on the single point
earth ground AND electronics separated by up to 50 meters of
wire. That's right. As much as 150 foot separation.
Important to an effective earth ground / 'whole house'
protector system is a short distance to earth ground AND good
separation between protector and transistors. That 50 meters
is additional impedance that help protect transistors.

What if the lightning hits after the whole house protector? Is there a
reverse path also?

Tom

 

[Yep]

What if the lightning hits after the whole house protector? Is there
a
reverse path also?

Tom

After they put out the fire there won't be much left!

Sorry couldn't resist!

 

[w_tom]

If lightning can hit between the 'whole house' protector and
the protected appliance, then the protected appliance should
be considered a different structure from structure protected
by the 'whole house' protector. Or the building needs
lightning rods. In the case of telephone exchanges, that
direct strike just cannot happen. Will appliance be damaged?
A question that can only be answered by "what are the better
paths to earth ground?" or "more information required".

Yes, lightning will go to earth via 'whole house' protector
even if coming from inside the building. That is how a modem,
damaged by incoming AC electric transient, uses the internal
phone line as the outgoing path to earth ground. Telco
installed 'whole house' protector is not earthing a transient
entering on exterior telco wire. It is earthing a transient
coming from the modem located inside the building.

Not exactly sure where you are going with this question.

 

[w_tom]

What is local ground? Earth ground connects to transformer
neutral ground connects to breaker box safety ground connects
to wall receptacle safety ground connect to computer chassis
ground connects to motherboard logic ground connects to analog
ground (for A/D converter) connects to stereo ground for
attached components connects to furnace enclosure connects to
washing machine sheet metal connects to cold water pipe
connects to CATV connects to ... So are all these called
earth ground or local ground? Wire is not a perfect
connector. Therefore earth ground and motherboard logic
ground are separated by an electronic component called wire.

Lets say your local protection shunts a 100 amp surge to the
wall receptacle safety ground. Posted previously were
numbers.
That wall receptacle would be something less than 13000 volts
relative to breaker box and earth ground. Why? Wire
impedance causes up to 130 ohms between that wall receptacle
and breaker box.

Major difference is where the transient is earthed - which
is electrically different from other grounds. Not only must
earthing be at the single point earth ground, but a better
installed protector makes the earthing connection on its own
dedicated wire. Connection must not share an earthing wire
with other protectors until all wires meet at the single point
earth ground. Again, this is because of the electronic
characteristics of wire.

So which ground do you call local ground? The stereo ground
lug that all other stereo components connect to? Breaker
box? Water pipe? These are electrically different grounds.

 

[w_tom]

If lightning can hit between the 'whole house' protector and
the protected appliance, then the protected appliance should
be considered a different structure from the one protected by
the 'whole house' protector. Or the building needs lightning
rods. In the case of telephone exchanges, that direct strike
just cannot happen. Will appliance be damaged? A question
that can only be answered by "what are the better paths to
earth ground?" or "more information required".

Yes, lightning will go to earth via 'whole house' protector
even if coming from inside the building. That is how a modem,
damaged by incoming AC electric transient, uses the internal
phone line as the outgoing path to earth ground. Telco
installed 'whole house' protector is not earth a transient
entering on exterior telco wire. It is earthing a transient
coming from the modem located inside the building.

Not exactly sure where you are going with this question.

 

[Jimmie]

A lot of the ones you by for residential use are pure junk But there are
ones that work to a degree. A building I sometimes work at took a hit on its
main feed blowing the transformer and two of the three powerline fuses. It
completely smoked the lightning protection box on the building's main panel
but nothing else was harmed.

This is a most informative article, and it echoes what w_tom says:
http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_hit_grounding_home/

So when I call an arbitrary electrician to ask for a grounding survey,
how do I know he's telling me the truth?

Do I have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to purchase a ground
tester?

This is for a single family home that I have lived in for about 7 years,
and will probably continue to live in for about 7 more years.


Since I'm having electrical work done, I would also like something like
this: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3108400 installed
at my breaker box; it would be nice if it could break down it's info by
each breaker; and it would also be nice if it could tell me how much
current is flowing through my ground connection.


Here are random URLs of info:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...s_miny=2002&as_maxd=25&as_maxm=8&as_maxy=2003

http://amasci.com/amateur/whygnd.html

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...+neutral+hot&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N




Here is a summary of models I have found, and some anecdotes from
Usenet:

MODEL: Panamax Primax
RESELLER: SmartHome.com http://www.smarthome.com/4839.html
JOULES: 2700
AMPS: 60,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 1 Phase, 50/60 Hz
RESPONSE TIME: 8x20 microseconds
PRICE: $119.99
WARRANTY: the manufacturer provides a 3-year Connected Major Appliance
Protection Policy up to $10,000 for the repair or replacement of major
household appliances (refrigerator, freezer, oven, range, washer, dryer,
ceiling fan or dishwasher) and a 5-year product warranty.
URLS:
- Press Release:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=p...01bd5cec$605a2680$77003dce@oemcomputer&rnum=3

- Negative Experiences:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=p...on=us&[email protected]&rnum=4

- More Negative Experiences:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...0007f@blyle&rnum=8&prev=/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie%
3DUTF-8%26edition%3Dus%26q%3Dpanamax%2Bsurge%26btnG%3DSearch

MODEL: Leviton 51120-1
RESELLER: SmartHome.com http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
JOULES: 950
AMPS: 50,000
CIRCUIT TYPE:
RESPONSE TIME: "Instantaneous"
PRICE: $189.99
WARRANTY:
URLS:
- Positive Comment:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...lm=tia8dac62nojbf%40corp.supernews.com&rnum=4

- Negative Comment:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=l...n=us&[email protected]&rnum=3

- Positive Comment:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=5...e=UTF-8&[email protected]&rnum=2

MODEL: Panamax gpp8005
RESELLER: PowerSystemsDIRECT
http://www.powersystemsdirect.com/P...ector_Whole_House_Surge_Primax_gpp8005_55.php

JOULES: 2,700
AMPS: 60,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 1 Phase 50/60Hz
RESPONSE TIME:
PRICE: $99.99
WARRANTY: Connected Equipment Policy Length 3 Years; Connected
Equipment Policy Amount $10,000; Lightning Protection Yes
URLS:
Model description:

MODEL: Intermatic IG1240RC
RESELLER: SmartHomeUSA.com
http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/Lighting/Surge-Suppressors/Item/IG1240RC/

JOULES: 1,200
AMPS: 48,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240V 60Hz
RESPONSE TIME: Less than 5 nanoseconds
PRICE: $69.95
WARRANTY: $10,000 warrantee
URLS:
- Positive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...s&selm=7ukvpr%24dja%241%40news.mks.com&rnum=2

- Positive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...d.nicolet.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups?hl=en&lr=%2
6ie%3DUTF-8%26edition%3Dus%26q%3Dintermatic%26btnG%3DSearch

- Positive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=i...tion=us&[email protected]&rnum=3

- Informational:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=i...=us&[email protected]&rnum=2

MODEL: Intermatic PanelGuard IG1300-4T-2C, protects (?) phone-lines and
cable lines too
RESELLER:
JOULES:
AMPS: 48,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 single (split) phase, 4 telephone lines, and 2
coax cable lines; ALL MODE PROTECTION (L1-N, L2-N, L1-G, L2-G, N-G,
L1-L2); 150 Volt MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) [AC Protection]; 350 Volt
Gas Tube [Telephone Protection]; 90 Volt Gas Tube [Coax Cable /
Satellite Protection]
RESPONSE TIME:
PRICE: IG1300-2T is $152.83 at
http://www.aplussupply.com/intermatic/pg5000/ig1240.htm
WARRANTY: $10,000, 5 year warranty
URLS:
- Non-negative:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...s?q=IG-1300&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

- Positive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...s?q=IG-1300&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

MODEL: Ditek DTK-WH8 Whole House Kit
RESELLER: StayOnline
http://www.stayonline.com/panel_surge_protectors/3233.asp
JOULES: 1050
AMPS: 125,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120 / 240 Split Phase ; Suppressed Voltage Rating: 700V
(L-L), 400V (L-G, L-N, N-G)
RESPONSE TIME: Less than 5 nanosecond
PRICE: $149
WARRANTY:
URLS:

MODEL: PolyPhaser IS-PM120-SP
RESELLER: PolyPhaser.com
JOULES:
AMPS: 40,000
CIRCUIT TYPE: 120Vac, 1 Phase, 2 Wires & GND
RESPONSE TIME: ?? Turn-On Time: 25ns ??
PRICE:
WARRANTY:
URLS:
- Positive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=l...n=us&[email protected]&rnum=3

 

[Tom MacIntyre]

If lightning can hit between the 'whole house' protector and
the protected appliance, then the protected appliance should
be considered a different structure from structure protected
by the 'whole house' protector. Or the building needs
lightning rods. In the case of telephone exchanges, that
direct strike just cannot happen. Will appliance be damaged?
A question that can only be answered by "what are the better
paths to earth ground?" or "more information required".

Yes, lightning will go to earth via 'whole house' protector
even if coming from inside the building. That is how a modem,
damaged by incoming AC electric transient, uses the internal
phone line as the outgoing path to earth ground. Telco
installed 'whole house' protector is not earthing a transient
entering on exterior telco wire. It is earthing a transient
coming from the modem located inside the building.

Not exactly sure where you are going with this question.

Where I'm going with the question is that 50m/150 feet is a lot of
separation, enough that a lightning strike could easily hit on the bad
side of the protector.

Tom

 

[Roy McCammon]

We have tons of test data proving that it is necessary to provide a surge
equilization TVSS at any equipment that is powered from the electrical
system and connected to one, or more, communication systems.

Read this:

http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/spd-anthology/files/Enlightening.pdf

I should clarify, I don't believe those transient suppressors
in the plug strips are providing any significant protection.

 

[sparky]

Chris has misrepresented what was posted. Anything else
installed as part of the protection system is, at best,
supplementary. Until the 'whole house' protector and single
point earth ground is installed, then nothing else can be
effective. Supplementary devices are all but useless without
first earthing the incoming transient. Furthermore, those
supplementary devices that can work adjacent to a computer are
already inside that computer.

Take, for example, series mode protectors from Zerosurge,
Brickwall, and Surgex. Good piece of design. However notice
the soft underbelly. There is this little thing called a
safety ground that completely bypasses a series mode
protector. If the building is not 'shunt mode' protected
right at the single point earth ground as described
previously, then a series mode protector is easily bypassed -
ineffective. Series mode protector is only supplementary and
can be ineffective without the 'whole house' earthed
protection system.

There is no more superior protection than single point earth
ground and 'whole house' protector. Furthermore, the cost of
enhancing that single point earth ground is significantly less
expensive and more effective than plug-in protectors on every
appliance. Provided is the most cost effective and overall
effective solution to hardware transient protection.

The silly suggestion is that lightning hitting a nearby tree
will create some kind of monster electromagnetic field that
will destroy electronics.

You are providing a great deal of misinformation to this
group, intentionally or not. A close lightning strike can
and WILL cause a large transient that can damage
electronic components. Please refrain from posting
until you have researched the subject thoroughly.




I am still waiting for anyone to

 

[Rowbotth]

On this subject...

I've been toying with the notion of buying some suppressors (two,
actually) rated at the PIV of 240VAC, and putting them in a box so they
could not be touched while they were in service. I was planning to put
an LED across each one, so I would know if it was burned out. I thought
I could determine the rating of the suppressor by talking to the
Utility Company, and I could get an idea of the rating of the apparatus
they use to provide power to my house.

Connecting them would be to the incoming 240 V into my house - the two
line conductor to ground (actually the Ground Conductor). Maybe a
switch so I could change out a failed suppressor safely.

Any reason why this would not work?

H.

 

[John Gilmer]

What is local ground?

Call it a "separately derived ground" that is connected (but not "bonded" to
your "single point ground" at the service entrance.

Actually, it could just be a nail pounded into the floor with a sign than
say "GROUND." Your surge protector would still protect everything being
served by it so long as ALL wires going to the outside world passed through
the surge protector.

 

[w_tom]

Assumption is that CG lightning is permitted inside a
building. Instead lightning rods and a steel skeleton provide
protection. Others may claim that nearby lighting strikes
will create massive electromagnetically induced surges on that
long (50m) wire between protector and electronics. The
resulting transient created by a nearby (outside) lightning
strike creates trivial transients - noise. Transients made
irrelevant by protection that is part of the electronic
equipment.

Again, electronic equipment must already have internal
protection. Protection that can be overwhelmed if the 'whole
house' protection system does not earth a typically
destructive surge.

 

[w_tom]

Lets see those numbers. What are numbers for a field
induced on those nearby wires?

As noted in another post - how do telco switching centers
install protection? Preferred is a switching computer
electronics separated by up to 50 meters of wire after the
surge protectors. If lightning strikes induced destructive
transients on nearby wires, then telco switching computers
would be often damaged by transients induced on those up to 50
meter cables. Let's see some E-M number for those so
destructive transients induced by nearby lightning strikes.

Back up that claim with some numbers. A typical 18,000 amp
CG strike outside the building and some 30 or 50 meters from
that interior wire. What destructive electrical transient
ends up on electronics end of that up to 50 meter phone wire
inside the building?

 

[w_tom]

A nail pounded into the floor and labeled 'ground' would be
effective if destructive surges were normal mode. But
destructive surges are not same as what plug-in protectors
claim to protect from. For protection from the typically
destructive surge, that single point earth ground is
essential. One need not even have a surge protector to have
effective protection. But a single point earth ground is
always essential to that protection.

We earth for two reasons. One is to dump a transient into
earth using a most conductive path into earth. A nail into
the floor with a sign that said 'ground' would simply violate
the principle. However if you have a problem with this, then
please feel free to cite an IEEE or equivalent source that
demonstrates how a floor nail constitutes a conductive earth
ground.

Wires alone need not violate the single point ground
principle to permit surge damage. When discussing surges,
then concrete, linoleum tile, baseboard heat, and some wall
paints would violate your 'single point nail ground'
principle. A building is full of materials and construction
techniques that can violate the single point ground. A
concept made so difficult inside the typical building that
earthing is performed for the entire building - to keep it
simple. It is possible to earth sections of a building as is
performed in skyscrapers - ie Empire State Building. But for
a protection system to be effective, that single point
conductive connection to earth must always exist.

 

[Chris Lewis]

A nail pounded into the floor and labeled 'ground' would be
effective if destructive surges were normal mode. But
destructive surges are not same as what plug-in protectors
claim to protect from. For protection from the typically
destructive surge, that single point earth ground is
essential. One need not even have a surge protector to have
effective protection. But a single point earth ground is
always essential to that protection.

You continue to parrot the same nonsense without any understanding
whatsoever.

A nail pounded into the floor is perfectly effective as a "ground"
to protect a device as long as every conductor entering a device is
overvoltage-clamped relative to it.

Surges cause damage to equipment when there are large voltage
differences between the conductors entering a device. If the
conductors are all clamped (via MOVs or whatever) to stay within
bounds of each other, it doesn't matter if the whole assembly is
lifted 1000's of volts away from "real" ground.

Good quality "point suppressors" do exactly that - 3 MOVs clamping
all three conductors in a circuit.

This is obvious with aircraft especially helicopters where an
"effective earth ground" is obviously not possible. If whole-house
surge suppressors attached to good grounds were the only thing
that was going to work, then aircraft wouldn't survive lightning
strikes. But they do.

Helicopters generate static charges sufficiently energetic to knock
people off their feet. Does it scramble their electronics? No.
Because they have point overvoltage protection on everything.

Lightning strikes act just like nuclear EMP. Just not nearly
as energetic. Within a radius of a lightning strike, there are
high speed transients induced on _everything_, grounded or not.
Proper close-in point-protection on a piece of equipment is going
to work better than a whole house suppressor on the other side
of the house no matter how well grounded the whole house suppressor is.

[Short of blowing the MOVs]

 

[Chris Lewis]

Assumption is that CG lightning is permitted inside a
building. Instead lightning rods and a steel skeleton provide
protection. Others may claim that nearby lighting strikes
will create massive electromagnetically induced surges on that
long (50m) wire between protector and electronics.

A small van der graf generator producing a wimpy 50Kv can light
up fluorescent bulbs within a few feet. That sort of voltage
difference (at least 60-70 volts with enough current to produce
visible light) is ample to destroy electronics (ie: punch a hole
through a MOS gate).

A lightning strike is many orders of magnitude higher voltage
and even more orders of magnitude more current than that.

Heck, we've had people in alt.home.repair measure 60v on a disconnected
conductor in a length of house wire using a sensitive enough DVM.

Go read up on transformers some time.

 

[Chet Hayes]

Lets see those numbers. What are numbers for a field
induced on those nearby wires?

As noted in another post - how do telco switching centers
install protection? Preferred is a switching computer
electronics separated by up to 50 meters of wire after the
surge protectors. If lightning strikes induced destructive
transients on nearby wires, then telco switching computers
would be often damaged by transients induced on those up to 50
meter cables. Let's see some E-M number for those so
destructive transients induced by nearby lightning strikes.

Back up that claim with some numbers. A typical 18,000 amp
CG strike outside the building and some 30 or 50 meters from
that interior wire. What destructive electrical transient
ends up on electronics end of that up to 50 meter phone wire
inside the building?

I see Tom is at it again with the usual wandering posts, more like
ranting and raving actually, on his favorite topic. The common theme
is:

1 - All you need is whole house entrance protection

2 - If anything gets damaged by lightening with that in place, well
it's "human failure", eg you must have done something wrong.

3 - Using plug in surge protectors, either as additional protection,
or for those living in say rental properties or apartments, only makes
things worse and leads to damage.

4 - If anyone reports having seen several pieces of eqpt that were
protected with a plug in protector escape damage, while another
unprotected piece got zapped, that's just dismissed, since he knows
better.

5 - If anyone sees a piece of eqpt with lightening damage on a comm
port, or a telephone line, well, Tom knows lightening so well and it's
so predictable, that the surge came in on the AC service entrance,
went through the whole house, and then chose to exit on the comm or
telephone line on the way out. He knows that's how my Tivo got it,
not from a lightening surge on the phone line.


The best part is how he continues to challenge people like Sparky to
provide scientific data, yet ignores it when they do and never
provides any himself. So, Tom, here it is again for you, straight
from the National Lightning Safety Institute. They clearly discuss
both direct and INDUCED EFFECTS caused by lightning, complete with
discussions of field strength, induced currents, etc. Perhaps it will
actually sink in this time, but I doubt it.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/effect.html

 

[chris]

Hi

Maybe we should remove this thread from the A+ newsgroup. Although somewhat
interesting it is really not related to A+. You should start your own group,
Lightning and its effects.

Chris

 

[zxcvbob]

Get the phone company to correct his mistake (so they will
reeducate the man and so you are not in violation of FCC
regulations). Does your box look like these?
http://www.alarmsuperstore.com/bw/bw connectors.htm
http://www.bass-home.com/gotoproduct.cfm?item=91598

Then NID must be earthed. And not earthed to the cable
company wire. The NID must make a connection to the same
earth ground where the cable wire also makes its earthing
connection. Each earthing wire should run separate and then
meet at the single point earth ground.

Any future trouble with phone company installers, then here
is the code:

[snip]

The repairman (a different guy than last week) came out this morning and
said he talked to his supervisor and it's the customer's responsibility
to ground the NID (!) I pointed out that the ground connection is
inside the telco half of the box and customers don't have access to the
ground terminal. He said if the customer has a ground wire sticking out
of the wall when they install the NID they hook it up, otherwise they
leave it disconnected. He said the phone cable is low-voltage so the
national electric code doesn't apply -- the NFPA *thinks* it applies,
but Qwest has a lawsuit or something where they are challenging it.
Sounds like bullshit to me.

I didn't argue with the guy; I asked him if he could unscrew the box so
I could attach an earth wire without having to cut the box open. He
unscrewed the fancy-headed locking screw and showed me where to attach
the wire and to make sure I tighten the customer-side screw when I was
done to keep the weather out. I have a 1000' roll of #12 green wire
that I'll never use up, and I've fished the end of it through the siding
and exterior wall already. It'll take me less than 15 minutes to finish
the job this evening.

Next time I see my friend who's a supervisor at the city's building
safety office I think I'll mention this and see what he says. It's
disturbing that Qwest's policy is to install aerial phone lines without
earthing them at all. And I assume they only connect buried cable's
metal shield to the ground block and don't connect it to the building's
ground electrode system.

Best regards,
Bob