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which side of tantalum (?) capacitor do I attach to ground?

M

Michael

Hi - I'm using a 1uF tantulum (OK I think it's tantalum - it's orange and
kind of tear drop shaped) to filter a very low current 5V line. So I'm
placing it between ground and +5. The side with the stripe is the negative
side, correct? And so I'd attach the negative side to ground correct? Sorry
for such a basic question...

Michael
 
J

John Popelish

Michael said:
Hi - I'm using a 1uF tantulum (OK I think it's tantalum - it's orange and
kind of tear drop shaped) to filter a very low current 5V line. So I'm
placing it between ground and +5. The side with the stripe is the negative
side, correct? And so I'd attach the negative side to ground correct? Sorry
for such a basic question...

Michael

It is an important question, and I wish there was a certain answer.
But I have seen tantalums with the positive lead marked with +, the
negative lead marked with a bar, but also some with the positive lead
marked with a bar or a bar and a +. The only way to be sure how a
given manufacturer does it is to connect an ohm meter each way and see
which polarity shows the highest leakage resistance or find their data
sheet.
 
M

Michael

It is an important question, and I wish there was a certain answer.
But I have seen tantalums with the positive lead marked with +, the
negative lead marked with a bar, but also some with the positive lead
marked with a bar or a bar and a +. The only way to be sure how a
given manufacturer does it is to connect an ohm meter each way and see
which polarity shows the highest leakage resistance or find their data
sheet.

well I tried out my multimeter - but it showed no connection from either
direction. So this is what the cap looks like:
|---------|
---| 105 |
| +35K | |
---| ------ |
|---------|

Where the vertical line on the second line of writing is actually connected
to the horizontal line on the third line of writing - forming a right
angle. Does that tell you anything?

Michael
 
B

Ben Bradley

In sci.electronics.design, Michael
well I tried out my multimeter - but it showed no connection from either
direction. So this is what the cap looks like:
|---------|
---| 105 |
| +35K | |
---| ------ |
|---------|

Where the vertical line on the second line of writing is actually connected
to the horizontal line on the third line of writing - forming a right
angle. Does that tell you anything?

No, but from your ASCII drawing the + in the +35K line may be
nearer the bottom lead than it is the top lead. Whichever lead is
closest to the + is almost surely the positive lead.
 
M

Michael

[email protected] (Ben Bradley) wrote in
In sci.electronics.design, Michael


No, but from your ASCII drawing the + in the +35K line may be
nearer the bottom lead than it is the top lead. Whichever lead is
closest to the + is almost surely the positive lead.

The plus is definitely neaer the side with the line. So if that is the
positve side - that means I connect it to the +5v line instead of the
ground line right? I can't believe I have to ask this...

Michael
 
B

Baphomet

well I tried out my multimeter - but it showed no connection from either
direction.

Were you on the highest resistance range...and was it an analog meter? The
needle really should noticeably deflect toward zero when changing lead
polarity...unless of course, the tantalum is dried out or open.

snip...snip...snip...
 
J

Joe Legris

John said:
It is an important question, and I wish there was a certain answer.
But I have seen tantalums with the positive lead marked with +, the
negative lead marked with a bar, but also some with the positive lead
marked with a bar or a bar and a +. The only way to be sure how a
given manufacturer does it is to connect an ohm meter each way and see
which polarity shows the highest leakage resistance or find their data
sheet.

To avoid further confusion, I will spend the remainder of the holidays
relabeling my tantalums so the + sign is on the negative lead.
 
V

valentin tihomirov

Tantalums (several ones that I have used) have such a proprty, device does
not work with them when cap connected incorrectly.
 
R

Robert Baer

valentin said:
Tantalums (several ones that I have used) have such a proprty, device does
not work with them when cap connected incorrectly.

Contray to what other posters stated, here are the facts:
1) One cannot rely on using an ohmmeter to determine polarity of any
type of capacitor, even aluminum electrolytics, tanatlum electrolytics,
or any othe type of electrolytic capacitor.
2) Any type of capacitor will work in reverse polarity, and this
includes all electrolytic types.
That being said, the voltage rating in reverse mode for electrolytics,
will be far less than the rating when used correctly.
Furthermore, *WARNING* too high of a reverse voltage *WARNING* applied
to an electrolytic can cause it *WARNING* to explode like a firecracker.
Most tantalum "teardrop" capacitors, like the one described, have at
least one un-ambiguous polarity marker: many will have one or two "+"
marks near the positive lead, some will have a "+" mark near a "bar"
which is near the positive lead.
That covers all of the tantalum "teardrop" capacitors that i have.
 
Z

Zak

Robert said:
Most tantalum "teardrop" capacitors, like the one described, have at
least one un-ambiguous polarity marker: many will have one or two "+"
marks near the positive lead, some will have a "+" mark near a "bar"
which is near the positive lead.
That covers all of the tantalum "teardrop" capacitors that i have.

There could also be a convention like "leads down, text towards you,
positive is the ... one".


Thomas
 
B

Ben Bradley

In sci.electronics.design, Michael
The plus is definitely neaer the side with the line. So if that is the
positve side - that means I connect it to the +5v line instead of the
ground line right? I can't believe I have to ask this...

Yes, the positive side goes to the +5V line.

I recall from a recent discussion of tantalums here that they are
very easily damaged by even a small reverse voltage, less than a meter
or the forward voltage drop of a diode would give. So if you tried
connecting it both ways with a multimeter measuring resistance as John
suggested, you may have damaged the tantalums you tested. Such damage
may be subtle - they may work now, but short out some time down the
road. I'd be wary of using them, and only use "pristine" ones that
you're sure haven't had any reverse voltage on them.

I (only now) recall that the bar indicates which lead the "outside"
film in the case is connected to. Caps are made with two foils and an
insulator/dielectric in between. Aluninum electrolytics (the popular
"normal" kind) are (almost?) always wound with the negative foil on
the outside, so the bar is at the negative terminal. Most or many
tantalum caps (which are technially a type of electrolytic, so the
full name is "tantalum electrolytic capacitor") are wound the other
way, so the bar would be on the + terminal.
What I vaguely recall is that this marking-a-capacitor-with-a-bar
business dates back to vacuum tube devices and capacitors made of
aluminun foil with wax paper dielectric, which were (and the ones that
survived still are) the sizes of an AA, C, or even D size battery.
These had a bar or band on one end (they had one wire coming out of
each end) to indicate the connection with the outside foil. This was
important when mounting it in a chassis - it was connected so that the
wire with the bar was the connection in the circuit that was the
closest voltage to the chassis (I hope you understood that - if one
side was 20V and the other was 330V, you connect the bar side to the
20V). This was done to reduce the chance that the outside foil would
arc through the outside insulation of the capacitor to the chassis on
which it was sitting. The voltages commonly used nowadays are nowhere
near what vacuum tube circuits use, so which terminal has the bar is
not important in (almost?) any application, but manufacturers still do
it. Putting the bar on must be some sort of standard.
 
J

James Meyer

In sci.electronics.design, Michael


Yes, the positive side goes to the +5V line.

I recall from a recent discussion of tantalums here that they are
very easily damaged by even a small reverse voltage, less than a meter
or the forward voltage drop of a diode would give.

All my 45 years of electronics experience tell me that no ohm meter
connections of either polarity would be likely to damage a tantalum capacitor.

Jim
 
R

Robert Baer

Zak said:
There could also be a convention like "leads down, text towards you,
positive is the ... one".

Thomas

Maybe, if so, then the answer might be "to the right".
*BUT*
I personaly would not bet on it.
Remember these facts:
All exceptions have rules; all rules have exceptions; all lies have
truth in them; all truths have lies in them.
 
R

Robert Baer

Ben said:
In sci.electronics.design, Michael


Yes, the positive side goes to the +5V line.

I recall from a recent discussion of tantalums here that they are
very easily damaged by even a small reverse voltage, less than a meter
or the forward voltage drop of a diode would give. So if you tried
connecting it both ways with a multimeter measuring resistance as John
suggested, you may have damaged the tantalums you tested. Such damage
may be subtle - they may work now, but short out some time down the
road. I'd be wary of using them, and only use "pristine" ones that
you're sure haven't had any reverse voltage on them.

I (only now) recall that the bar indicates which lead the "outside"
film in the case is connected to. Caps are made with two foils and an
insulator/dielectric in between. Aluninum electrolytics (the popular
"normal" kind) are (almost?) always wound with the negative foil on
the outside, so the bar is at the negative terminal. Most or many
tantalum caps (which are technially a type of electrolytic, so the
full name is "tantalum electrolytic capacitor") are wound the other
way, so the bar would be on the + terminal.
What I vaguely recall is that this marking-a-capacitor-with-a-bar
business dates back to vacuum tube devices and capacitors made of
aluminun foil with wax paper dielectric, which were (and the ones that
survived still are) the sizes of an AA, C, or even D size battery.
These had a bar or band on one end (they had one wire coming out of
each end) to indicate the connection with the outside foil. This was
important when mounting it in a chassis - it was connected so that the
wire with the bar was the connection in the circuit that was the
closest voltage to the chassis (I hope you understood that - if one
side was 20V and the other was 330V, you connect the bar side to the
20V). This was done to reduce the chance that the outside foil would
arc through the outside insulation of the capacitor to the chassis on
which it was sitting. The voltages commonly used nowadays are nowhere
near what vacuum tube circuits use, so which terminal has the bar is
not important in (almost?) any application, but manufacturers still do
it. Putting the bar on must be some sort of standard.

No reliable tantalum will be damaged in any way if one used a DVM in
an attempt to measure them.
Typically, any decent electrolytic will withstand one-tenth the
forward rating in either polarity.
There are some that will withstand more.
However, biasing or using an electroltic at such voltages may cause
degradation in reliability as well as capacitive rating.
This assumes the temperature of the capacitor is near room
temperature, and not warm or hot.
Higher temperatures cangive a lot of trouble in River City.
 
R

Robert Baer

James said:
All my 45 years of electronics experience tell me that no ohm meter
connections of either polarity would be likely to damage a tantalum capacitor.

Jim

Exactly!
Ditto for aluminum electrolytics.
Add my 55 years of experience to that.
 
J

James Meyer

Maybe, if so, then the answer might be "to the right".
*BUT*
I personaly would not bet on it.
Remember these facts:
All exceptions have rules; all rules have exceptions; all lies have
truth in them; all truths have lies in them.

I have an annoying habit of taking apart anything new that I come
across. When I disassembled a few teardrop, epoxy covered, tantalums, I found
that under the epoxy they are built from a cylinder of sintered tantalum with
one wire lead exiting from the center and a second wire lead soldered to the
outside of the cylinder. For small tantalums, you can't really see which is
which because of the epoxy, but for larger ones, the position of the leads is
obvious.

The center lead is enviably positive and the outside lead negative. If
you've got a bunch of tantalums that are all alike, then sacrifice one of them.
Gently crush it with a pair of pliers to break the epoxy off and you'll see the
polarity.

I once got a batch of tantalums that had been put through the marking
machine at the factory backwards! So you can't always trust the markings, but
you can trust the construction.

Jim
 
J

John Popelish

James said:
I have an annoying habit of taking apart anything new that I come
across. When I disassembled a few teardrop, epoxy covered, tantalums, I found
that under the epoxy they are built from a cylinder of sintered tantalum with
one wire lead exiting from the center and a second wire lead soldered to the
outside of the cylinder. For small tantalums, you can't really see which is
which because of the epoxy, but for larger ones, the position of the leads is
obvious.

The center lead is enviably positive and the outside lead negative. If
you've got a bunch of tantalums that are all alike, then sacrifice one of them.
Gently crush it with a pair of pliers to break the epoxy off and you'll see the
polarity.

I once got a batch of tantalums that had been put through the marking
machine at the factory backwards! So you can't always trust the markings, but
you can trust the construction.

Thanks. It is good to, occasionally get one's hands on an actual
fact.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

IME tants are much less tolerant of reverse bias.

And current surge. Don't use them where current into or out of them is
unlimited (for example, as a bypass directly across a low-impedance
battery).
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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