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Using Ultra Capacitors to Replace Batteries

D

D from BC

Ultra capacitor example:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/pdf/DZNe.pdf
10F
2.5V
18mm x 35mm
About $30.00 at digikey.

Question is.... Are these ultracaps replacing batteries in some
designs?

Maybe implemented in a cordless optical mouse or Mp3 player?

Can ultracaps outperform batteries?
D from BC
 
D

Damon Hill

Ultra capacitor example:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/pdf/DZNe.pdf
10F
2.5V
18mm x 35mm
About $30.00 at digikey.

Question is.... Are these ultracaps replacing batteries in some
designs?

Maybe implemented in a cordless optical mouse or Mp3 player?

Can ultracaps outperform batteries?

Depends...capacitors can have high power density (they can deliver
large amounts of current for a short time) but only very small amounts
of current for longer periods. Batteries have high energy density,
delivering small to medium (and sometimes high) currents for much
longer periods.

If the current drain is >very< small, they can replace batteries in
some instances; otherwise they can supplement batteries. Capacitors,
properly designed and used, can endure constant and high charge/discharge
rates, which batteries don't like.

If ultracaps could operate at substantially higher voltages, they
could store much more energy but probably never as much as batteries.
Both capacitors and batteries are improving, so I think we'll see more
of both being used, often in tandem.

--Damon
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

D said:
Ultra capacitor example:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/pdf/DZNe.pdf
10F
2.5V
18mm x 35mm
About $30.00 at digikey.

The energy density of a common alkaline battery is 1000 times higher,
and the cost is 100 times lower.
Question is.... Are these ultracaps replacing batteries in some
designs?

Only as a short term power source.
Maybe implemented in a cordless optical mouse or Mp3 player?
:)

Can ultracaps outperform batteries?

1000 times is too much of a difference.


Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com
 
S

Spurious Response

Depends...capacitors can have high power density (they can deliver
large amounts of current for a short time) but only very small amounts
of current for longer periods. Batteries have high energy density,
delivering small to medium (and sometimes high) currents for much
longer periods.

If the current drain is >very< small, they can replace batteries in
some instances; otherwise they can supplement batteries. Capacitors,
properly designed and used, can endure constant and high charge/discharge
rates, which batteries don't like.

If ultracaps could operate at substantially higher voltages, they
could store much more energy but probably never as much as batteries.
Both capacitors and batteries are improving, so I think we'll see more
of both being used, often in tandem.

--Damon

Good answer.
 
G

Gary Tait

Ultra capacitor example:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/pdf/DZNe.pdf
10F
2.5V
18mm x 35mm
About $30.00 at digikey.

Question is.... Are these ultracaps replacing batteries in some
designs?

Maybe. Either for backup, or where their discharge is not critical.
I have seen them used for RTCs, and in some shake flashlights.
Maybe implemented in a cordless optical mouse or Mp3 player?

Nope. Li-Po batteries can do those.
 
E

Eeyore

D said:
Ultra capacitor example:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/pdf/DZNe.pdf
10F
2.5V
18mm x 35mm
About $30.00 at digikey.

Question is.... Are these ultracaps replacing batteries in some
designs?

Not to *replace* batteries, no.

Maybe implemented in a cordless optical mouse or Mp3 player?

Can ultracaps outperform batteries?

Not normally, although the ultra caps used in regenerative braking systems in
electric vehicles have the advantage of being able to accept charge faster than
a battery will.That's the only reason they're there.


Graham
 
G

Gary Reichlinger

Can ultracaps outperform batteries?

Yes and no. They cannot store as much energy, but they can
charge and discharge much faster. There are certainly applications
where an ultracapacitor could replace a battery. I have considered
using them for a low drain application where they could be instantly
recharged by plugging (very) briefly into an automotive power supply.
It would require a capacitor with a low leakage current.
A more come design would be to use both. Alkaline batteries can
lose their charge very fast if they are subjected to a heavy current
drain even for a short period of time. Using a capacitor along with
the battery can extend the battery life since the capacitor can handle
the large but short high current requirement.
 
A

AZ Nomad

Yes and no. They cannot store as much energy, but they can
charge and discharge much faster. There are certainly applications
bullshit.

Your typical ultracap can only push few milliamp. Fine for holding CMOS memory,
but you're not going run a UPS.

To charge a farad in under an hour requires the ability to push a few amps.
 
G

Guy Macon

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit


Gary said:
Yes and no. They cannot store as much energy, but they can
charge and discharge much faster. There are certainly applications
where an ultracapacitor could replace a battery. I have considered
using them for a low drain application where they could be instantly
recharged by plugging (very) briefly into an automotive power supply.

It has been a few years since I used ultracaps, so somebody please
correct me if this is no longer true, but when I used them the
ESR was *very* high and thus the available current was quite low.
The combination of a large capacitance and a high ESR made it so
that I couldn't put a newly-built PWB on a test fixture and test
the board's ability to hold data during a power failure -- the
test was over before the ultracap had time to charge. I had to
add a test to the burn-in fixture. Likewise on the discharge;
short it out for a minute or so and find that it is still charged.

Wikipedia has an interesting energy density chart:
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density ]

A few selected items from the list:

ENERGY DENSITY IN MJ/kg:
-------------------------------------------------------
Spring...........................................0.0003
Capacitor........................................0.002
Supercapacitor...................................0.01
Ultracapacitor...................................0.02
Lead-acid battery................................0.09–0.11
EEStor Ultracapacitor (claimed capacity).........1.0
NiCd Battery.....................................0.14-0.22
NiMH Battery.....................................0.22
Zinc-air Battery.................................0.40-0.72
Lithium ion battery..............................0.54–0.72
Wood.............................................6.0–17.0
Flywheel........................................l0.5
Lignite coal....................................14-19
Cowdung/Cameldung...............................15.5
Methanol........................................19.7
Ethanol.........................................30.0
Anthracite coal.................................32.5
LPG.............................................34.39
Diesel fuel.....................................45.8
Gasoline........................................46.9
Hydrogen.......................................143
Uranium-235 (nuclear fission)...........90,000,000
Hydrogen (nuclear fusion)..............300,000,000
 
H

Hal Murray

It has been a few years since I used ultracaps, so somebody please
correct me if this is no longer true, but when I used them the
ESR was *very* high and thus the available current was quite low.
The combination of a large capacitance and a high ESR made it so
that I couldn't put a newly-built PWB on a test fixture and test
the board's ability to hold data during a power failure -- the
test was over before the ultracap had time to charge. I had to
add a test to the burn-in fixture. Likewise on the discharge;
short it out for a minute or so and find that it is still charged.

That's what I would have said a few months ago. But a friend
gave me a heads-up. They are now competing with batteries
for things like electric cars.


http://www.worldandi.com/subscribers/feature_detail.asp?num=23938

Known for storing a short-lived jolt of electricity
essential to the successful operation of electrical circuits
in devices and appliances ranging from PCs to microwave ovens,
cell phones, and televisions, the capacitor is in the midst of
a major, ongoing upgrade of its energy storage capabilities.
After nearly two centuries in which batteries have been the
obvious choice for storing usable amounts of energy, high-end
capacitors, known as ultracapacitors, are poised to challenge
them in a growing range of applications.


http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/wtr_16326,303,p1.html

A breakthrough technology is holding forth the promise of
charging electronic gadgets in minutes, never having to replace
a battery again, and dropping the cost of hybrid cars. Indeed,
the technology has the potential to provide an energy storage
device ten times more powerful than even the latest batteries
in hybrid cars -- while outliving the vehicle itself.
 
D

dav1936531

Wikipedia has an interesting energy density chart:
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density ]

A few selected items from the list:

ENERGY DENSITY IN MJ/kg:
EEStor Ultracapacitor (claimed capacity).........1.0

Has anyone actually had a production or product sample from EEStor. I
hear about this "unbelievable" capacitor technology they "have", but I
am wondering at what stage of developement these guys really are in.

I have a product that desparately needs their device (if it works as
rumor says), but have yet to see anything concrete from them. They
don't even have a web site.
Dave
 
E

Eeyore

dav1936531 said:
Guy Macon said:
Wikipedia has an interesting energy density chart:
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density ]

A few selected items from the list:

ENERGY DENSITY IN MJ/kg:
EEStor Ultracapacitor (claimed capacity).........1.0

Has anyone actually had a production or product sample from EEStor. I
hear about this "unbelievable" capacitor technology they "have", but I
am wondering at what stage of developement these guys really are in.

They don't have a product yet AIUI.

Graham
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Weeelll.. not all such devices are created equal, such as these $1900
babies:

http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedP...260048_BOOSTCAP_Ultracapacitor_Module/28081/0

Here's more detailed specs on another module from the same
manufacturer:

http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0018-390v.asp

17.8F, with max current 950A at 390 volts, which is more than 370kW.

Applications:

* Regenerative Braking
* Torque Assist Systems
* Engine Starting




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
A

amdx

dav1936531 said:
Wikipedia has an interesting energy density chart:
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density ]

A few selected items from the list:

ENERGY DENSITY IN MJ/kg:
EEStor Ultracapacitor (claimed capacity).........1.0

Has anyone actually had a production or product sample from EEStor. I
hear about this "unbelievable" capacitor technology they "have", but I
am wondering at what stage of developement these guys really are in.

I have a product that desparately needs their device (if it works as
rumor says), but have yet to see anything concrete from them. They
don't even have a web site.
Dave

Another EEstor Ultracapacitor story.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/?a=f
Mike
 
J

John Devereux

SP said:
Please watch your attributions. I did not write any of the above.

Sorry, I thought I had done so... You quoted AZ, and I quoted you
quoting him (I think).

I could not access the original post, so I replied to yours.

Anyway, sorry for any confusion.
 
G

Gary Reichlinger

bullshit.

Your typical ultracap can only push few milliamp. Fine for holding CMOS memory,
but you're not going run a UPS.

As others have indicated, you are behind the times. Current
products do handle high current pulses.
 
D

Damon Hill

Not normally, although the ultra caps used in regenerative braking
systems in electric vehicles have the advantage of being able to
accept charge faster than a battery will.That's the only reason
they're there.

Another important difference between batteries and capacitors
is the flatness of discharge voltage; a battery is nearly flat
over most of its range. I don't think a capacitor, no matter
how large, will be remotely as flat. This has interersting
implications in motor controller designs, for example.

--Damon
 
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