Two story hot water tank ?

[Moe]

I was wondering,... my natural gas HWT is in the basement, would
it be cost effective to install another one on the first floor and vent
the lower tank through the floor to the second tank to prewarm or heat
the water in the second tank? Would a power vent be needed to exhaust
the fumes? The second floor tank would not have a burner but only be
used to capture the wasted heat now going out the vent. Plumbing would
be changed to go to the top tank first then the prewarmed water would go
to the HWT.

 

[Moe]

If your basement heater is 'natural draft', then the gasses have to be
hot enough to create a draft up the flue. Cooling them too far may
cause problems when the wind blows wrong or the house is all 'sealed-up'
for bad weather.

If your basement heater is already a 'power vent' type, I think you'll
find the air dilution is so much that the vent outlet is pretty cool
already and you won't recover much more.

Now, if you 'natural draft' from basement to first floor, the gasses
will be hot when they reach the first floor (assuming you properly
insulate the pipe (don't forget fire-stop spacing around the flue).
Then 'power vent' from the first-floor unit to outside to maintain the
draft, it might work. But I'd be sure to have a working CO monitor,
just in case.

daestrom

Guys, I unhook the vent to the HWT in winter and let it heat under
the house, keeps the pipes from freezing and we have low humidity so the
extra vapor doesn't hurt, at least not in my case. I've got a couple
of CO detectors with digital read outs and alarms and they have never
ever ever registered any CO from natural gas burning. I also heat the
house with a unvented radiant wall heater and unvented central heat.
But put a cigarette under the CO detector and watch it ! 250 PPM shows
up very quickly and the alarms work. Yea I know I'll wake up dead
someday but it's worked fine for the last 20 plus years. There is
plenty of heat coming out the top of the HWT to create a draft through
another tank and in my case it would then vent into the house any way.
Interesting to watch the CO detector in the garage, start the car and
it goes up then goes down as the catalytic converter fires, about 50
ppm CO is all it will show after and hour with the door closed. Start a
lawnmower, weed trimmer, chainsaw generator etc. in the garage with the
door closed and it can easily peg it at 999 in a short time. You guys
can vent and waste 20 to 30% of the heat to the outside, I'll use it
one way or the other.

 

[Moe]

so begins natural selection...

This is so dumb. I guess all those smart engineers and firemen just must
be wrong.

"Waste" heat or die...let me think about that.

Seriously, if your house is leaky enough, you might just survive. And
how are the CO2 measurements? Or NOx? Not all combustion is complete all
the time.

CO2? I drank a soda and was exposed to more CO2 then the space
heaters and HWT will put out in a year. There was quite an argument
about DC vs alternating current in the early 1900's because of the risk
of high voltage AC current, the risk was determined to be worth the
reward. I consider saving 30% on my natural gas bill each month well
worth the risk. If burning natural gas was so dangerous everyone with
a natural gas cook stove who ever warmed a can of beans would be dead by
now. People don't understand risk, fear, emotions etc. This is so
typical of the average American, drive a SUV because it is safer, but
send troops to Iraq to get the needed crude supply for the SUV. How
many people died in the USA last year due to unvented natural gas
appliances and space heating? How many died in Iraq? How many people
were electrocuted with AC current? I spend around 1000 a year on
natural gas, it would be 1300 a year if I vented the stoves and HWT,
take 300 times 20 years, that's 6K in expendable income. You can play
with the numbers, invest it, collect interest on it, pay for a funeral
with it, buy health insurance with it? Whatever,
None are so blind as those that will not see.

 

[EXT]

Hmmm...... You start out asking a question, then you end up lecturing
everyone because they allow their appliances to vent outside.

I hope you bank your savings because one appliance malfunction could require
this fund to bury some of your family. BTW, gas cooktops don't burn the gas
in an enclosed chamber so there is never a shortage of air, plus in my house
we run an exhaust fan that sends the products of combustion outside.

Also, keep note of the moisture that you are getting from the gas equipment
is acidic, so you will find it a little rough on the throat, lungs and will
rust any bare iron or steel objects in the building quicker than normal.

 

[Moe]

Hmmm.... I doubt it. My summertime NG usage (just a HWT and stovetop)
is about 20 therms a month. So thats about 2000 cubic feet of methane.
Roughly speaking, one cubic foot of methane produces one cubic foot of
CO2 if burned properly. So that's about 2000 cubic feet of CO2 in one
month. Admittedly, my family probably uses a fair amount of hotwater
(family of four), but it's clear that even a single person living alone
produces more CO2 from natural gas in a year then your soda can. Add on
any significant space-heating and you're much higher. My wintertime
usage runs about 140 therms a month, so that would be about 14000 cubic
feet of CO2 every month.

If your HWT has a recovery rate of 40,000 BTU/hr like mine does (and
burns natural gas), that is 0.4 Therms/hr and would be about 40 cubic
feet of methane per hour (more actually, since the unit isn't 100%
efficient). Those 40 cubic feet of methane generates about 40 cubic feet
of CO2 and 80 cubic feet of water vapor. In doing so, it consumes about
80 cubic feet of oxygen. Mind you, my HWT doesn't usually run for a
full hour to recover after someone takes a shower, but that gives you an
idea of the rate.

There is a reason building codes require proper venting, but if you're
so much smarter then everyone else, by all means don't bother venting
yours. Just do your loved ones a favor and ask them to move out so they
aren't trapped in the same house.

BTW, learn the symptoms of CO2 poisoning versus CO poisoning. They
*are* different and a CO monitor will not protect from CO2. A well
adjusted gas appliance (that burns with a blue flame) generates very
little CO but quite a bit of CO2. But both gasses can be deadly.



And because you can't see the CO2 coming from your appliances and it
doesn't show up on a CO monitor, you think it isn't there?

daestrom

Well, I'm still alive. After 21 years of heating the old place the
same old way. Exhaling CO2 all the while. I read up on CO2 and if I
ever have more then a 100 people in the house at one time I'll open a
window or two. Anyone know anything about cellulose insulation? Is it
better then fiberglass? I've heard it is.

 

[Moe]

Well, I'm still alive. After 21 years of heating the old place the
same old way. Exhaling CO2 all the while. I read up on CO2 and if I
ever have more then a 100 people in the house at one time I'll open a
window or two. Anyone know anything about cellulose insulation? Is it
better then fiberglass? I've heard it is.

23 Near Va. Tech Hospitalized With Monoxide Symptoms
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/19/AR2007081901150_2.html?hpid=topnews