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Transistor as a switch

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Yes -

View attachment 55095

The model used in this simulator seems to account for saturation effects -

https://help.simetrix.co.uk/8.0/sim...bipolarjunctiontransistor_spicegummelpoon.htm


Regards, Dana.

Actually, Dana, doesn't your simulation show Ic maximizing at saturation (Ic ~ 500mA and Vc ~ 0V) and then decreasing as Ib continues to rise past saturation, thus confirming my answer of "no?" That is to say, dIc/dib goes to zero at saturation, and then reverses sign as Ib continues to rise.
 
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View attachment 55096

Actually, Dana, doesn't your simulation show Ic maximizing at saturation (Ic ~ 500mA and Vc ~ 0V) and then decreasing as Ib continues to rise past saturation, thus confirming my answer of "no?" That is to say, dIc/dib goes to zero at saturation, and then reverses sign as Ib continues to rise.

Thanks for the correction, my ADD saw that plot rising to the right and bingo, bigger is more
in ADD land.

I stand corrected.

Regards, Dana.
 
And what transistor parameter values did you use for that?

I don't see why there's a quibble about when a BJT is saturated.
What is the definition that it's when the Vce is less than Vbe not correct?
SATURATE 1.1.png

The above snip from the net is the only evidence that I can produce at this moment. And in reality if I presented this info to bolster my argument in front of an unbiased jury with no prior electronics experience, they could very well decide that the only proof here is that there is one other person in the world that agrees with my concept of transistor saturation. That's all I have. As far as specs related to base bias with a specific desired output I'll guess I was giving the 3055 a beta of 10. Therefore, theoretically, if I push 1A thru the base, my output will be clamped at approx 10A. So the 3055 base driver transistor would want approx 12 ohms (Vs = 12V) in its collector-emitter path. Errors in my calcs were mostly from my neglect of internal resistance of the devices in this cascade configuration. The 3055 is a darlington pair. Itself, 2 transistors cascaded. This requires twice the base voltage of a single transistor and when being driven hard, near saturation, the 3055 prefers base voltages around 7 volts. There were lots of intricacies that I was unaware of because of my lack of experience "out in the field." It's just the way it is, for me anyway. I eventually got the circuit to drive my dc motor to the specs I wanted but melted my breadboard. A further lesson about the importance of sufficient heatsinking. But it has all been great fun and it is interesting, to me, talking tech with other enthusiasts.
 
Yes -

View attachment 55095

The model used in this simulator seems to account for saturation effects -

https://help.simetrix.co.uk/8.0/sim...bipolarjunctiontransistor_spicegummelpoon.htm


Regards, Dana.
The definition I posted in post #63,
Can I ask everyone a question please? When a transistor is in saturation do you think if you increase the base emitter voltage would you expect an increase in collector current? Thanks Adam
According to the definition I used in post #63, the answer is no.
 
Sorry. That's not true. For proof, note figure 7 ("ON voltages") in this datasheet.
https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/2n3055-d.pdf
First off I am truly surprised that the 2n3055 is not a darlington. Not sure how I got that confused. Second, let's say I may have been trying to deliver 14A with a 2n3055. What would be your estimate of required base voltage? If I had been trying to work near max Ic then I probably looked at max Vb and figured l would approach that value. My work on this particular effort was around 1984 and the specifics are definitely fogged over.
 
upload_2022-5-7_5-14-15.png

Somewhere North of 1.4V looks like, and the above is just typical. Use
Vbe @Vce = 4.0 curve if you want it in linear region.


Regards, Dana.
 
First off I am truly surprised that the 2n3055 is not a darlington. Not sure how I got that confused. Second, let's say I may have been trying to deliver 14A with a 2n3055. What would be your estimate of required base voltage? If I had been trying to work near max Ic then I probably looked at max Vb and figured l would approach that value. My work on this particular effort was around 1984 and the specifics are definitely fogged over.
The proof is in the can. If it were a Darlington, there would be 2 dies in there.

2N3055 IN PHOTO 2.1.png
View attachment 55099

Somewhere North of 1.4V looks like, and the above is just typical. Use
Vbe @Vce = 4.0 curve if you want it in linear region.


Regards, Dana.
This is a great discussion and I have some questions related directly to very similar topics. I would prefer to open this discussion in a new thread. I initially entered this thread to offer my understanding as to how a transistor acts as a switch, I believe in response to member crutschow. But as often happens, a whole bushel of questions on tangent subjects has arrived. That's a good thing. So crutschow, if we haven't lost you in a maze of sidebar discussions, I hope you were given some clear insights regarding using a transistor as a switch. Also I stand with the definition of saturation as I posted in post #63 (pretty sure it was 63). To danadak, it is a hunch that if in figure 7, concerned with Vb at near saturation, let's say 14.5A collector current, the Vb will be WAY north of 1.4V. The figure 7 chart has been abridged, I think. If the plotted Vb lines were continued from Ic 10A to 15A, I will guess that their path goes nearly vertical. That and FET turn off and on is something I will be asking about soon. Not sure which topic category at the moment.
 
So crutschow, if we haven't lost you in a maze of sidebar discussions, I hope you were given some clear insights regarding using a transistor as a switch.
I have been given insights about how others view BJT saturation, but that has not changed my understanding of saturation, which is a fairly simple state of operation for the transistor.
 
First off I am truly surprised that the 2n3055 is not a darlington. Not sure how I got that confused. Second, let's say I may have been trying to deliver 14A with a 2n3055. What would be your estimate of required base voltage? If I had been trying to work near max Ic then I probably looked at max Vb and figured l would approach that value. My work on this particular effort was around 1984 and the specifics are definitely fogged over.

Truth is, I've always studiously avoided the '3055 in any application involving more than ~1A of collector current. Much higher than that and its beta goes to pot even before its saturation voltages do. For higher currents there are better choices and have been for decades.
 
This is an interesting simplified summary of saturation -


I would be careful however, this is a Prof talking and as we have warned earlier in thread
academia not good. Also its pedantic, although since Prof used no field theory I would
venture he is only 10% pedantic on the scale, so if any rubs off on viewer thats only
probably a .1% hit.

Regards, Dana.
 
This is an interesting simplified summary of saturation -


I would be careful however, this is a Prof talking and as we have warned earlier in thread
academia not good. Also its pedantic, although since Prof used no field theory I would
venture he is only 10% pedantic on the scale, so if any rubs off on viewer thats only
probably a .1% hit.

Regards, Dana.

Interesting to be reminded that FET "saturation" is essentially the complete opposite of bipolar "saturation."

For a "saturated" field effect transistor, output current remains (approximately) constant, independent of output voltage.
For a "saturated" bipolar transistor, output voltage remains (approximately) constant, independent of output current.
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I have a quibble regarding the simulation model and some of the graphical responses depicted here. Two of the graphs depict a sharp change in the transfer function, somewhere in the vicinity of 0.8 volts at the emitter-base junction. This sharp transition point on the graph does not occur with real devices. I suspect this sharp change is caused by something changing abruptly in the software model, because in the REAL world the only thing that exhibits such a sharp change are devices with internal mechanisms like positive feedback and quantum-mechanical tunneling. The BJT has neither of those "baked in" to its design.

To his credit, @danadak did provide a close-up view, in his post #56, of the collector current as a function of the base-emitter voltage from about 0.1V forward bias to about -0.3V reverse bias. Nary a sharp corner in sight, which agrees with theory (Ebers-Moll) and experimental measurements. From 0.0V to -0.3V reverse bias, only reverse saturation current occurs, right up until the reverse bias "punches through" the thin depletion layer.

Punch-through isn't shown on that graph, and of course you never want to deliberately reverse-bias the base-emitter junction, lest you destroy that junction and the transistor... well, maybe you could salvage the base-collector terminals for use as a small-signal diode... Nah. That's an old "trick" from the 1950s when transistors were veeery expensive, too expensive to discard just because someone hooked up the voltage with the wrong polarity. <sigh> Don't even ask how I know this.

Well, I should say "almost never" because someone will no-doubt find a working example where large reverse-bias, and signal excursions leading to a reverse-biased base-emitter junctions, occur deliberately... maybe while trying to emulate an over-driven vacuum tube guitar amplifier stage. There are folks on this forum (who haven't spoken yet) who make amplifiers (usually guitar amps) that deliberately distort their audio frequency inputs. And of course commercial foot-operated "stomp boxes" are used by virtually ALL real rock-and-roll ensembles (bands to most follks, but sometimes accompanied by full orchestras with music sheets and such) to modify the sound of their musical instruments.
 
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From the Art of Electronics, Horowitz, bipolar saturation, attached.


Regards, Dana.
 

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  • Saturation Bipolar Horowitz, W. Hill.pdf
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