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thumbwheel potmeter for left-right usage

J

Joerg

me said:
no, make one gear smaller and have a second gear on it. I'll leave the
ratios to you.

Ok, that would be two extra gears then instead of one.

Another option is the dreaded dial cord...

Or the timing belt thingie :)
 
J

Joerg

jasen said:
What does "forwards" mean in your original question?

Picture a remote control that you have to hold with the IR emitter
forward. It has one thumb wheel coming out the left side, another coming
out the right side. "Forward" would mean using the left hand thumb and
pushing the left wheel towards the front, or using the right hand and
moving the right wheel towards the front. Both should result in the same
potmeter movement.
 
J

Joerg

jasen said:
Do that and turning the left wheel forwards will turn the right one
backward. (IE both will turn counter-clockwise).

Your second paragraph basically asks for a solid axle with knobs each end.

Or two shafts with the gears meshing half way between them. In this case
that's the only option because the unit must be pretty flat, like a TV
remote.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Hello Folks,

Been through the usual channels like Digikey. Is there a thumb wheel
potmeter that has coarse and strong enough "teeth" so an idler wheel (or
second pot of same type) can be mounted next to it so the wheels mesh?

Reason is a project coming up where a device needs to be controllable by
right- and left-handed folks. Kind of like a remote. The potmeter wheels
coming out the sides of the remote need to go in the same direction for
both. IOW "forward" for "more".

The Panasonic EVLHFA seems to go in the right direction but no specs on
the teeth and the data sheets hardly ever say much about that.
Definitely not about the material strength for geared usage.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/aok0000ce3.pdf

Have the pot wheel come out one side... flip over the whole control
for lefties ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Joerg

Jim said:
Have the pot wheel come out one side... flip over the whole control
for lefties ;-)

Unfortunately that doesn't work in this case :-(

Did you get the laser thing licked? Mine is humming but I am still not
too enthused about the speed I am squeezing out of the TEC PID loop so
far. It's like molasses.
 
J

Jamie

Joerg said:
Ok, that would be two extra gears then instead of one.



Or the timing belt thingie :)
2 gears is all you need, one on the pot and one on a post mount that
messes together with the one on the pot. The pot is offset to one side
so that the 2 gears come out equally on both sides.
 
J

Jamie

me said:
How about a central pot with a gear on it and geared wheels on either side?
So turning either one turns the pot and the other wheel...
as i noted in another post, 2 gears only, they come together to mess
with each other. One gear is mounted on the Pot while the other, is
mounted on a post. the 2 gears will be exposed side to side.
 
J

Jamie

Brian said:
I wasn't very clear on that. I meant that if you mount on on the left
side on the top of the pcb and one on the right side on the bottom of
the PB, they will both adjust in a forward/backward motion the same.
You would need a through hole or double ended POT for that.
 
J

Joerg

Jamie said:
2 gears is all you need, one on the pot and one on a post mount that
messes together with the one on the pot. The pot is offset to one side
so that the 2 gears come out equally on both sides.
That's what I was thinking of except that I wanted the shaft of the
idler to be a pot also. Mainly because pots are so cheap and come with
all the mounting etc. Else it would become a custom design.
 
J

jasen

jasen wrote:
Picture a remote control that you have to hold with the IR emitter
forward. It has one thumb wheel coming out the left side, another coming
out the right side. "Forward" would mean using the left hand thumb and
pushing the left wheel towards the front, or using the right hand and
moving the right wheel towards the front. Both should result in the same
potmeter movement.

Taking your description literally pushing the wheel towards the front
would snap it off... so yes both result in the same non-movement.

I think I know what you're trying to describe by "push the wheel forwards"
is push the top of the wheel forwards...

10 senonds spent holding a pencil horizontally between your hands and
rotating it, should convince you that a solid axle between the wheels
will suffice to link them so that both move with the same sense.

All you need is a pot you can stick a axle through...
 
J

Joerg

jasen said:
Taking your description literally pushing the wheel towards the front
would snap it off... so yes both result in the same non-movement.

On my old AM radio it hasn't snapped off in 30 years :)

I think I know what you're trying to describe by "push the wheel forwards"
is push the top of the wheel forwards...

Picture a small AM/FM radio with a thumb wheel volume control on the
left side of it. Those often have a similar thumb wheel for tuning on
the right side. Now imagine these two mechanically linked and the radio
not wider than the diameter of two thumb wheels. Can be done but the
teeth on those wheels need to be coarse enough.

10 senonds spent holding a pencil horizontally between your hands and
rotating it, should convince you that a solid axle between the wheels
will suffice to link them so that both move with the same sense.

All you need is a pot you can stick a axle through...

Again, that would make the unit too high. In this case it should be
under 1/2". That pretty much limits it to thumb wheels, not regular
knobs because they'd be too small.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jamie said:
as i noted in another post, 2 gears only, they come together to mess


MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH!

with each other. One gear is mounted on the Pot while the other, is
mounted on a post. the 2 gears will be exposed side to side.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

jasen

jasen wrote:
Picture a small AM/FM radio with a thumb wheel volume control on the
left side of it.

[FX: sound of light going on]
"duh..."
[FX: slaps head]

yeah... sounds you need pcb mount potentiometers that can mount gears...

maybe you could use a wheel with a rubber tyre on the left side.
stick it on a swing arm so that users thumb pressure presses it against the
pot enough to grip...

the pivot would be bolted to the PCB using a stepped bolt and a couple of
washers, hmm, maybe just use copper pads instead of washers.



.---------------. ############ bolt
| CASE | ############
| | ||||######|||||||||||| arm
| | ||||######||||||||||||
|..... ____ | =====####===== washer/pad
.WHEEL. / \| xxxxxxxxx####xxxxxxxxxx pcb
. . / \ xxxxxxxxx<##<xxxxxxxxxx
. _ .| POT | =====<##<===== washer/pad
. T .| | ##<##<##
. | . \ / ##<##<## nut
|..|.. \____/|
| o| | not to scale
| | |
| * pivot |
| |
| |




Bye.
Jasen
 
J

Jamie

Michael said:
Jamie said:
as i noted in another post, 2 gears only, they come together to mess



MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH! MESH!


with each other. One gear is mounted on the Pot while the other, is
mounted on a post. the 2 gears will be exposed side to side.
Excuse me, MESS, MESS, MESS, oh yeah and MESH , what you said.
 
J

Joerg

jasen said:
jasen wrote:

Picture a small AM/FM radio with a thumb wheel volume control on the
left side of it.


[FX: sound of light going on]
"duh..."
[FX: slaps head]

Please don't slap my head right now. Got to bed at 3:00am last night ...

yeah... sounds you need pcb mount potentiometers that can mount gears...

maybe you could use a wheel with a rubber tyre on the left side.
stick it on a swing arm so that users thumb pressure presses it against the
pot enough to grip...

the pivot would be bolted to the PCB using a stepped bolt and a couple of
washers, hmm, maybe just use copper pads instead of washers.



.---------------. ############ bolt
| CASE | ############
| | ||||######|||||||||||| arm
| | ||||######||||||||||||
|..... ____ | =====####===== washer/pad
.WHEEL. / \| xxxxxxxxx####xxxxxxxxxx pcb
. . / \ xxxxxxxxx<##<xxxxxxxxxx
. _ .| POT | =====<##<===== washer/pad
. T .| | ##<##<##
. | . \ / ##<##<## nut
|..|.. \____/|
| o| | not to scale
| | |
| * pivot |
| |
| |

Nice! I didn't know mech CAD could be done in ASCII art. But still I'd
prefer a 2nd potmeter for the left wheel just for the fact that it's
cheaper and comes with all the mounting options.
 
J

Joerg

Paul said:
If the primary potentiometer shaft can take the side force and the thumb
wheel is knurled to make such operation possible without slipping, try
the following:

Mount a soft rubber wheel in contact with the primary such that the
rotation will be in the direction you desire. Use a weak spring to keep
the two in contact, but such that additional pressure on the secondary
is transmitted to the interface between the two wheels.

Operating the secondary wheel should take no more thumb pressure than
would be required to operate the primary if the rubber wheel/knob combo
have a suitable coefficient of friction.

Good idea. But mechanically it might be almost as complex as a specially
made idler wheel that grabs into the knurls. If only the knurls are deep
enough to be considered "teeth" one could simply use a 2nd potmeter of
same type.
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jim said:
Have the pot wheel come out one side... flip over the whole control
for lefties ;-)

Nah. Hang the lefties from the ceiling by their feet.
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Joerg said:
Hello Folks,

Been through the usual channels like Digikey. Is there a thumb wheel
potmeter that has coarse and strong enough "teeth" so an idler wheel (or
second pot of same type) can be mounted next to it so the wheels mesh?

If the primary potentiometer shaft can take the side force and the thumb
wheel is knurled to make such operation possible without slipping, try
the following:

Mount a soft rubber wheel in contact with the primary such that the
rotation will be in the direction you desire. Use a weak spring to keep
the two in contact, but such that additional pressure on the secondary
is transmitted to the interface between the two wheels.

Operating the secondary wheel should take no more thumb pressure than
would be required to operate the primary if the rubber wheel/knob combo
have a suitable coefficient of friction.
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Joerg said:
Good idea. But mechanically it might be almost as complex as a specially
made idler wheel that grabs into the knurls. If only the knurls are deep
enough to be considered "teeth" one could simply use a 2nd potmeter of
same type.

Unless the knurls are actual teeth (on both wheels) you are going to
have to arrange to have some side force applied to maintain friction.
This will be a combination of a spring plus the force applied to the
idler by the operators thumb.

Either using a second pot or an idler wheel, the idle shaft will have to
be free to swing against the main pot wheel. If it is bolted down, any
wear of either wheel's surface will result in proper contact being lost.
Of course, for actual gears, both shafts can be fixed.

There is one alternative (if the device has the space internally). Drill
a small hole in both the main and idler shafts (which can be fixed) and
pass thin nylon string through one, wrap it around the shaft a few times
and then around the other in the opposite direction. Bring it back to
the main shaft and tie it to the loose end with a small tensioning
spring in line. If there isn't enough room laterally, the string between
the two shafts can be routed around a third shaft to provide enough free
travel to incorporate the tension spring. This is how they used to
couple radio tuner knobs to the variable cap. shafts.
 
J

Joerg

Paul said:
Unless the knurls are actual teeth (on both wheels) you are going to
have to arrange to have some side force applied to maintain friction.
This will be a combination of a spring plus the force applied to the
idler by the operators thumb.

The pots are actually only soldered in (thru-hole). They can be held in
proper position by a clamping assy during wave solder. But this setup
might not be good enough. Depends a bit on expected life. It's a
semi-disposable application which is why it has to be cheap.

Either using a second pot or an idler wheel, the idle shaft will have to
be free to swing against the main pot wheel. If it is bolted down, any
wear of either wheel's surface will result in proper contact being lost.
Of course, for actual gears, both shafts can be fixed.

There is one alternative (if the device has the space internally). Drill
a small hole in both the main and idler shafts (which can be fixed) and
pass thin nylon string through one, wrap it around the shaft a few times
and then around the other in the opposite direction. Bring it back to
the main shaft and tie it to the loose end with a small tensioning
spring in line. If there isn't enough room laterally, the string between
the two shafts can be routed around a third shaft to provide enough free
travel to incorporate the tension spring. This is how they used to
couple radio tuner knobs to the variable cap. shafts.

That might be an option. But probably we'll go with molded wheels where
we can select our own teeth structure.
 
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