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The era of reduced expectations

O

Oppie

Here it is, nearly the end of the year and I'm just thankful to still be
employed as an engineer.

Been working most of this year on a 32 hour work week (with subsequent 20%
less gross even though I wind up actually putting in over 40 hours). My
medical insurance contributions have increased. I'm spending more time doing
the jobs of people that were laid off. I've been with this company since
1982 and helped it to grow. Now trying to keep it from withering.

Jeez, I hope the economy improves. Ho Ho Ho
 
O

Oppie

John Larkin said:
What sort of technology does your company do? Any idea why it's fading?

It doesn't sound like they treat you very well. There seems to be plenty
of
demand for EEs these days, so maybe you should shop around.

We make modular control systems for microscope automation.
Job listings in the area are just about nil and can't move.
 
O

Oppie

Jim Thompson said:
The USA is burning while Obama fiddles.

Let it burn.

...Jim Thompson

That's my take on it. I'd rather be productive than a victim on the dole.
 
H

hamilton

We make modular control systems for microscope automation.
Job listings in the area are just about nil and can't move.

What area are you talking about here ?

h
 
T

T

To-Email-Use- said:
The USA is burning while Obama fiddles.

Let it burn.

...Jim Thompson

Well - I'd like to correct your anti-Obama screed just a tad. The U.S.
Congress are the ones who are fiddling while the rest of the United
States suffers.

Get it right.
 
P

P E Schoen

"Oppie" wrote in message
Here it is, nearly the end of the year and I'm just thankful to still be
employed as an engineer.
Been working most of this year on a 32 hour work week (with subsequent
20% less gross even though I wind up actually putting in over 40 hours).
My medical insurance contributions have increased. I'm spending more
time doing the jobs of people that were laid off. I've been with this
company since 1982 and helped it to grow. Now trying to keep it from
withering.
Jeez, I hope the economy improves. Ho Ho Ho

Actually, what you are experiencing will become the new norm, and it is a
good thing. It is a natural consequence of automation and robotics and
computer control that workers will become more productive, meaning that the
same amount of work can be done by fewer people, and the double whammy is
that the world continues to produce more people. This is to a large extent
caused by our estimation of wealth by purely material standards, and our
"Puritan work ethic" makes it seem "sinful" to be idle and enjoy free time
and recreation. We have been trained to need expensive and disposable
entertainment and communication "toys" to keep ourselves occupied and "out
of trouble". And our accepted paradigm of having two wage earners per
family, as well as the increasing number of single parent households, has
also diminished the number of jobs available.

We, as an advanced civilization, have advanced far beyond what is necessary
to keep ourselves supplied with our basic necessities of clean air, potable
water, healthy foods, shelter, and security, in roughly that order. Thoreau
said, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation", and it is probably
even more true now than it was then. We really do not need all the expensive
material items that we strive to amass over our lifetimes, especially when
they are for individual use rather than shared among many. The "rugged
individualist" is not really a lofty goal, and instead we need to embrace
cooperation and sharing and interpersonal (and intercultural) communication
on a genuine face-to-face basis. Our technology was supposed to free us from
being slaves to toiling for our means of sustenance, but materialistic
capitalism thrives on increasing consumption, and many of us have been
programmed to want ever more things as status symbols and conspicuous
evidence of our vain perception of wealth and prosperity.

Most of us can easily survive on 20% less. So if we would adopt a 4 day 32
hour work week, our 8% unemployment rate would suddenly transform into a 12%
demand to fill the vacuum. If 10% of our population would change their
lifestyles to include sharing living space and expenses with another person,
their needs would diminish and it would actually be a healthier social
condition. But we may need to wean ourselves off of our concept of
individualism and isolation created and reinforced by excessive reliance on
electronic communication and entertainment, and instead adopt lifestyles
involving closer relationships with other people and the natural world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_community

Paul
www.newkoinonia.com
 
B

Bill Sloman

Balancing our budget is a BAD thing?

Jim is as out-of-touch-with-reality as James Arthur. Deficit-funded
Keynesian stimulus spending is - and has been - what kept you out of a
rerun of the Great Depression. Balancing the budget would dump you
back in recession, which is not what most people want. People with
ample cash reserves might think differently - in a recession they can
buy up companies that are going to the wall for a lot less than they'd
pay if the economy was expanding - but for the rest of us an economy
that is working below capacity is not a nice place to work or find
work.
You are ignorant.  Thus, when the burn is done, you will have no means
of support.  When you try to thieve, you will be shot.

Jim is obviously the ignoramus here. The deficit funding is staving
off the burn - and does seem to be getting the economy back to normal,
if slower than we'd like. What he seems to want is a return to 1933.
 
B

Bill Sloman

I really think it's the only solution, otherwise we become a communist
society... just as Obama envisions.

What a bizarre delusion. In so far as the US is currently run by an
oligarchy who concentrate on enriching themselves while passing on the
bare minimum of the benefits of economic growth to the rest of
society, the US does look rather like Russia and China. The income
distribution in the US is highly unequal, with a Gini index of 40.8%,
between Russia - at 40.1% and China at 42.5%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Presumably Obama would like to see it become more civilised - more
like Germany at 28.3%. Not so much because the population would become
happier - he's been re-elected, and can't be re-elected again - but
because the economy would do better making his retirement better
funded.
 
B

Bill Sloman

That's my take on it. I'd rather be productive than a victim on the dole.

You are a victim - of a bunch of right-wing Tea Party nitwits who
share Jim Thompson's economic delusions.
 
G

George Herold

Here it is, nearly the end of the year and I'm just thankful to still be
employed as an engineer.

Been working most of this year on a 32 hour work week (with subsequent 20%
less gross even though I wind up actually putting in over 40 hours). My
medical insurance contributions have increased. I'm spending more time doing
the jobs of people that were laid off.   I've been with this company since
1982 and helped it to grow. Now trying to keep it from withering.

Jeez, I hope the economy improves. Ho Ho Ho

Driving home tonight I was thinking how we screwed up shipping all
the
manufacturing jobs off to china. We lived high on the hog for a
while
on the cheap labor. But to parapharse H. Ford (I think)
"Who buys our cars?"

George H.
 
O

Oppie

P E Schoen said:
"Oppie" wrote in message



Actually, what you are experiencing will become the new norm, and it is a
good thing. It is a natural consequence of automation and robotics and
computer control that workers will become more productive, meaning that
the same amount of work can be done by fewer people, and the double whammy
is that the world continues to produce more people. This is to a large
extent caused by our estimation of wealth by purely material standards,
and our "Puritan work ethic" makes it seem "sinful" to be idle and enjoy
free time and recreation. We have been trained to need expensive and
disposable entertainment and communication "toys" to keep ourselves
occupied and "out of trouble". And our accepted paradigm of having two
wage earners per family, as well as the increasing number of single parent
households, has also diminished the number of jobs available.

We, as an advanced civilization, have advanced far beyond what is
necessary to keep ourselves supplied with our basic necessities of clean
air, potable water, healthy foods, shelter, and security, in roughly that
order. Thoreau said, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation",
and it is probably even more true now than it was then. We really do not
need all the expensive material items that we strive to amass over our
lifetimes, especially when they are for individual use rather than shared
among many. The "rugged individualist" is not really a lofty goal, and
instead we need to embrace cooperation and sharing and interpersonal (and
intercultural) communication on a genuine face-to-face basis. Our
technology was supposed to free us from being slaves to toiling for our
means of sustenance, but materialistic capitalism thrives on increasing
consumption, and many of us have been programmed to want ever more things
as status symbols and conspicuous evidence of our vain perception of
wealth and prosperity.

Most of us can easily survive on 20% less. So if we would adopt a 4 day 32
hour work week, our 8% unemployment rate would suddenly transform into a
12% demand to fill the vacuum. If 10% of our population would change their
lifestyles to include sharing living space and expenses with another
person, their needs would diminish and it would actually be a healthier
social condition. But we may need to wean ourselves off of our concept of
individualism and isolation created and reinforced by excessive reliance
on electronic communication and entertainment, and instead adopt
lifestyles involving closer relationships with other people and the
natural world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_community

Paul
www.newkoinonia.com
You forgot Kurt Vonnegut's "Player Piano"
http://www.amazon.com/Player-Piano-Novel-Kurt-Vonnegut/dp/0385333781
which was required reading for engineering students at Clarkson College in
1970.
 
O

Oppie

George Herold said:
Driving home tonight I was thinking how we screwed up shipping all
the
manufacturing jobs off to china. We lived high on the hog for a
while
on the cheap labor. But to parapharse H. Ford (I think)
"Who buys our cars?"

George H.

I've been under pressure (from the guy in the corner office) to send my
circuit boards to a turnkey manufacturer who ships the jobs to China for
assembly. So far they've done OK but my preference is to keep the jobs in
the USA and keep US employed.
 
M

miso

Doesn't Jim live in AZ?
Last I heard, it was overrun by Mexicans.
Patriotic indeed... :)

Scumbag Republithugs hire illegals for cheap labor. Arizonans need only
to look in the mirror to understand the illegal immigration problem. To
be specific, illegals that crossed into the country illegally. There is
another class of illegals that overstayed their visas.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Just can't help but display your ignorance, Miso?

Arizona is home to Sheriff Joe, the most successful officer at
rounding up illegals and sending them back.  In spite of the Feds
trying to thwart his and other Arizona officers from doing their jobs.

Hire an illegal here and risk your company being raided and shut down.

But, Miso, you and your ilk see only left wing news, so you remain
clueless.

Whereas Jim only sees right-wing news, but considers himself
thoroughly clueful.
Sadly, clues aren't what he's full of.
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Jim said:
Arizona is home to Sheriff Joe, the most successful officer at
rounding up illegals and sending them back. In spite of the Feds
trying to thwart his and other Arizona officers from doing their jobs.

Hire an illegal here and risk your company being raided and shut down.

Was immigration status an issue before 1913 (before you needed to worry
about taxing income)?

What happened when a Mexican walked into the Ponderosa and asked Ben
Cartwright for a job? I suspect law and government didn't even invade their
thoughts.
 
Was immigration status an issue before 1913 (before you needed to worry
about taxing income)?

What happened when a Mexican walked into the Ponderosa and asked Ben
Cartwright for a job?  I suspect law and government didn't even invade their
thoughts.

Good point--hearty people seeking work, striking their own bargains
between themselves.

Today's welfare state changes that to favor poor people seeking
(everyone else's) support--dragging all of society into it--a
different dynamic.

James Arthur
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Jim said:
Interesting question. I don't know. The other, most important thing
missing in 1913 was drug traffickers.

Set aside the criminal element into a separate analysis box, and just
look at the rest of the present "grade" of illegal's, and the problems
they cause or facilitate...

(1) They overload our medical systems. To them, it's free medical
care. And, thanks to our crazy "citizen" definition, the pregnant
flock into border towns, such as Yuma, and drop a "citizen", free of
charge... to live forever on welfare.

(2) Some unscrupulous employers hire them at less than minimum wage,
and collect no employment taxes or pay into the unemployment fund.
Sheriff Joe has his fun with this bunch of clowns.

(3) They have no scruples about claiming citizenship benefits... after
all, vote (illegally) Democrat and get your "bennies" for life :-(

None of the above would be a problem if it wasn't for the welfare state.
The immigration problem is a creation of progressivism, in taxation and
benefits.

Without progressivism, they'd be able to work productively, and helping
their economic status would be a blow to the cartels.

Nope. But, not only were there no taxes, there were no government
benefits.... thus the scales stayed in balance.

But people see the immigrants as parasites instead of viewing the government
that way. They don't have any grasp of basic economics. The wealth of a
society is a function of how much productive work is done. It makes no
difference if it's done by Mexicans, but the government is a behemoth of
non-production.

I think Sheriff Joe should round them up, fingerprint them, then load
them on airplanes... not back to Mexico... send them to New York and
Massachusetts >:-}

Eliminate the welfare state and I would welcome them.

After seeing Atlas Shrugged Part 2, my friend and I noted how it was about
secession by individuals because you can't get enough agreement for a whole
state to secede. There is a petition in Oklahoma and Texas, but I think
they're doing it wrong. It should be national, just to allow people to
express their desire to do a John Galt.
 
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