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Should resistors be outlawed?

N

Nigel

This thread seems less like a question for serious debate than a starting
point for soapbox environmental politics.
 
A

AC/DCdude17

X-No-Archive: Yes
I think you underestimate Seti@Home.

Seti@Home beats the living crap out of your CPU, running it near 100 percent
capacity, with the floating point processor being beaten senseless 95
percent of that time.

This increases (on the average) the CPU's power consumption an average of 25
watts (it depends on the speed and the die size of the CPU).

Citation please? Otherwise, please do not pull a number out of your butt. I
have an AC power meter and 100% CPU utilization increases power consumption
only by a few watts relative to idling with screen saver running.
Normally the
CPU idles most of the time and uses a lot less power.

Quantify it.
Normally the FPU is
not even enabled when the CPU is idle. Just enabling it causes a
respectable increase in the CPUs power consumption: it accounts for around
half of the CPU's silicon real estate.

And just leaving the computer in screen saver or putting the monitor in Energy
Saver mode doesn't put the CPU to true idle. Some people choose to hibernate or
sleep their computer which involves clocking down the CPU, but it causes more
problems than saving a few dimes a year is worth I don't even bother.

This information is well documented
and widely known, including the watt consumption for many differnt CPUs.
You see, overclockers love to use Seti@Home to test the stability of their
overclocked CPU. If anything will crash a system that is even slightly
unstable, the demands of Seti@Home will do it. Check the overclocker sites
for the CPU temperature information, and you'll be amazed how much running
Seta@Home will heat up your silicon.

The increase in system power usage compared to a computer that is just idling
with screen saver on is only a few percent.
In other words, it wastes 25 million watts continuously 12 hours a day.

25 megawatts is no small matter, rolling brownouts and blackouts in
California depend on less excess power than that being used.

At 10 cents a kilowatt hour, that means it costs $30,000.00 a day worth of
electricity to run Seti@Home. Thirty thousand dollars a day to search for a
one in 500 quadrillion chance of receiving transmissions from space
aliens... if space aliens found out we were doing that they would never
contact our retarded carcasses in the first place since no one wants to hang
out with fools.

Even though you pulled the number out of your butt, let's say it's true. Big
deal. $30,000 is nothing with the number of people involved in this project.
$30,000 is just a dust speckle compared to all the money the government wastes
on something like welfare and social insecurity.
 
F

feklar

AC/DCdude17 said:
X-No-Archive: Yes

No, get the envirowhiner liberals out of the office. I'd say outlaw low-income
utility subsidies and kill two birds with a stone. This prevent them from
getting cheaper rates at courtesy of your tax money. Incentives for them to use
less power. It will jack up their utility cost and force them to save power or
risk getting their power cut off.

I've never heard of this subsidy. It must be local to your area. The only
thing similar I've ever heard of is the Salvation Army program that gives
out low income heating assistance in Minnesota, Iowa, and Wisconsin.

Don't get me wrong, I think Greenpeace ought to be outlawed probably as much
as you do... Most environmentalists have a nasty habit of ignoring facts
and realities. On the other hand, sometimes they know what they are talking
about. They need to police themselves better to avoid losing credibility...
I think your idea gives very little returns for the effort needed and increases
cost.

It all adds up.
Minimizing incandescent lamps from residential properties is far more
significant. Almost all the lights in homes are incandescent. I'm sure you've
came across a bathroom with five or six globe lamps that's 60W each. These
decorative lamps gets perhaps 10 lumens to the watt. Mandating motion detector
activated lights in bathrooms might be effective.

Don't look at me, I run flourescents. Almost all of my bulbs since about 7
years ago were replaced by flourescents. The free market has already
mandated their consumer use by making them cheaper than incandescents, and
most retarded consumers still buy the retarded incandescents. You can buy
the replacement flourescent bulbs for $4 to $13 at any Wal-Mart, and they
last fifteen or twenty times longer than a same-lumens rated incandescent.
Three of my 15 watters (giving as much light as a 60 watt bulb) are at least
7 years old and are still going strong. It would have cost me at least $30
in light bulbs by now and at least a couple of hundred dollars in extra
electricity if I had been buying the incandescent replacement bulbs. I paid
a total of $18 for the three flourescent bulbs. Hey, if you think Wal-Mart
is reasonable for flourescent bulb prices, check out eBay sometime. I've
seen the things sell there for under a dollar sometimes when sold in sets of
5 or more bulbs - new.

That the government hasn't outlawed incandescents makes the Seti@Home
designers and computer programmers look noble, responsible, and efficient in
comparison.

Don't forget superbright LEDs. This new innovation is even more efficient
than flourescents. You may have noticed them starting to sneak into car
tail lights, traffic signals, highway road signs, flashlights, and a few
other places.
 
W

Wade Hassler

feklar said:
I am not the expert, so maybe this is a stupid or ignorant idea. On the
other hand, maybe I'm right, so at the risk of flames I will either make
sense or make an ass of myself.

Resistors are used in circuits to step down voltages. The excess voltage is
radiated away as heat.

A question: Can any resistor that exists be replaced by a AC or DC
transformer? (think miniature transformer for small value parts)?

If am I right in presuming that, then the use of resistors must continually
flush probably at least a Gigawatt down a toilet somewhere in the USA alone
every day, just as waste heat. (What's the total power generation capacity
of the USA, 13 point something gigawatts total? 13.6 gW?)

What are the heat losses for transformers vs. for resistors?

Can a transformer always replace a resistor, or does it create
insurmountable circuit design problems in frequency generation and control
circuits? Can inductors usually be used as replacements in those cases?

I have a sneaking suspicion that if a law was passed making it illegal to
use a resistor in a circuit as a voltage dropping device, that law would
save at least a continuous half a Gigawatt from being wasted in the USA.
And while we're at it, let's get rid of bad weather and entropy.
Wade Hassler
 
B

bigmike

Wade Hassler said:
And while we're at it, let's get rid of bad weather and entropy.
Wade Hassler

Also, think of all the food that is wasted by people that eat three meals a
day. If we could cut the amount of allowed meals down to one a day, that
would leave enough food to feed everybody else in the world! LOL
 
A

AC/DCdude17

X-No-Archive: Yes
If you want further quantification, run it and look at your own CPU
temperature readouts.

Heat can be expressed as watts, figure it out.

As I said, I have a true power meter. It plugs into the outlet and computer
plugs into it and reads out the power consumption in watts.

Heat can be expressed as heat when all other coefficients are known. Just
knowing the temperature won't translates into wattage without knowing the
ambient tempreature near the CPU, heatsink thermal coefficient, heatsink radiant
coefficient, air flow etc. etc.


If your motherboard is so old it doesn't have CPU temperature readouts, then
feel the CPU heat sink while the CPU has been idling, then run Seti@Home for
an hour, then make the mistake of touching the CPU heatsink again.

That's a qualitative measurement. Not quantitative.
I can pretty much guarantee you won't ever make that mistake again.

Mine never gets all that hot. I've got forced cooling ya know. There aren't
any passive cooled computer CPUs today.
This was a number that was expressed on one of the overclockers sites. Its
not a life and death issue for me, so I will trust my memory rather than
invest many hours on a search of the hundreds of overclocker sites that may
or may not find the original site I got the numbers from.

On some "overclocker's site" whose name can't be remembered and who most likely
doesn't mention the make and model of instrument used to conducted this test.
Oh how credible.
Pay me for the
research and I will be more than happy to undertake it. Until then, my
memory and my making the mistake of doing a fingertip heat comparison once
will have to suffice. I know the difference between "cool to the touch" and
"getting my fingertips burned". Personally, the only difference I can find
between that experience and touching a 25 watt light bulb is that when
turned on for a while, the light bulb is cooler to the touch than the
heatsink of my K6-2/400 was. (yes the CPU fan was running)

My 20W soldering iron gets a whole lot hotter than 100W lightbulb, so surely the
soldering iron must be using more power...
RIGHT!
 
F

feklar

AC/DCdude17 said:
As I said, I have a true power meter. It plugs into the outlet and computer
plugs into it and reads out the power consumption in watts.

Well, go ahead and post the consumption increase then, along with your CPU
type and speed, system config, etc... Ot go to one of the overclockers
sites and add it to the hundreds of listings already there.
Heat can be expressed as heat when all other coefficients are known. Just
knowing the temperature won't translates into wattage without knowing the
ambient tempreature near the CPU, heatsink thermal coefficient, heatsink radiant
coefficient, air flow etc. etc.
My 20W soldering iron gets a whole lot hotter than 100W lightbulb, so surely the
soldering iron must be using more power...
RIGHT!

Yeah and the sparks from a fireworks sparkler reach the same temperature as
a red hot poker from a fireplace, but they can bounce off your hand without
burning it. Its a question of the total mass.

Interesting how you use where mass enters into the equation in the two
examples you used it...
 
R

Robert Dansereau

I have a sneaking suspicion that if a law was passed
making it illegal to use a resistor in a circuit
as a voltage dropping device, that law would
save at least a continuous half a Gigawatt from
being wasted in the USA.

And all those vampire appliances! A few days ago, as I was going
to bed, I turned off all the lights and I was stunned at the sheer
amount of LEDS illuminating the darkness of my house!

Let's count... Three computers, three monitors, two videos, two
DVDs, dish rerceiver, two remote-operated sound systems, DSL
modem, hub, microwave, digital clock on the oven, four or five
wall warts permanently connected and warm to the touch, not
counting the clock radio and the fridge (who obviously need
power 24/24). Sheesh!

Sometimes, I am tempted to shut everything off, close the
switches on the numerous blinking power bars in my house
(BTW, why do the little neon lamps blink after a while?)

But then again, we live in a lazy society where the remote
is king, and the idea of reprogramming the clock on the vcr
is terrifying!

I do my part at saving juice by using neon lights in my kitchen
and always using the minimum of lights necessary in my
house, I did take care of selecting "Energy Star" recommended
appliances. My latest buy is the Frigidaire Gallery front-loading
washer/dryer set, who takes surprisingly little electricity and
water, and watching the clothes tumble in the window is
actually more interesting than much of what's on TV nowadays!

;-)

Robert, in Montreal
 
R

Robert Dansereau

I have a sneaking suspicion that if a law was passed
making it illegal to use a resistor in a circuit
as a voltage dropping device, that law would
save at least a continuous half a Gigawatt from
being wasted in the USA.

And all those vampire appliances! A few days ago, as I was going
to bed, I turned off all the lights and I was stunned at the sheer
amount of LEDS illuminating the darkness of my house!

Let's count... Three computers, three monitors, two videos, two
DVDs, dish rerceiver, two remote-operated sound systems, DSL
modem, hub, microwave, digital clock on the oven, four or five
wall warts permanently connected and warm to the touch, not
counting the clock radio and the fridge (who obviously need
power 24/24). Sheesh!

Sometimes, I am tempted to shut everything off, close the
switches on the numerous blinking power bars in my house
(BTW, why do the little neon lamps blink after a while?)

But then again, we live in a lazy society where the remote
is king, and the idea of reprogramming the clock on the vcr
is terrifying!

I do my part at saving juice by using neon lights in my kitchen
and always using the minimum of lights necessary in my
house, I did take care of selecting "Energy Star" recommended
appliances. My latest buy is the Frigidaire Gallery front-loading
washer/dryer set, who takes surprisingly little electricity and
water, and watching the clothes tumble in the window is
actually more interesting than much of what's on TV nowadays!

;-)

Robert, in Montreal
 
A

Asimov

to "All" (14 Jul 03 10:59:38)
--- on the topic of "Re: Should resistors be outlawed?"

RD> From: [email protected] (Robert Dansereau)

RD> Sometimes, I am tempted to shut everything off, close the
RD> switches on the numerous blinking power bars in my house
RD> (BTW, why do the little neon lamps blink after a while?)

There may be a couple of reasons. The first is the neon gas becomes
contaminated by the bombardment of the electrodes and raises the
firing threshold voltage of the gas.

Another reason is the way the little neon bulbs are constructed with a
trace amount of radiactive isotope so that they will still light up in
the dark (the threshold level is a bit sensitive to light). The isotope
used has relatively long half life but it does eventually weaken to the
point that the neon starts skipping triggers from time to time when in
the dark.

You will note that it doesn't blink as much when illuminated and in the
dark it may not even light at all depending on how far gone the neon is.

.... Which sparks some mnemonic circuitry.
 
A

Andre

And all those vampire appliances! A few days ago, as I was going
to bed, I turned off all the lights and I was stunned at the sheer
amount of LEDS illuminating the darkness of my house!

Let's count... Three computers, three monitors, two videos, two
DVDs, dish rerceiver, two remote-operated sound systems, DSL
modem, hub, microwave, digital clock on the oven, four or five
wall warts permanently connected and warm to the touch, not
counting the clock radio and the fridge (who obviously need
power 24/24). Sheesh!

Sometimes, I am tempted to shut everything off, close the
switches on the numerous blinking power bars in my house
(BTW, why do the little neon lamps blink after a while?)

It is caused by marginal ionisation . You may find that they work fine
if a blue light is shone onto them (e.g. keyring)

-A
 
I am not the expert, so maybe this is a stupid or ignorant idea. On the
other hand, maybe I'm right, so at the risk of flames I will either make
sense or make an ass of myself.

Resistors are used in circuits to step down voltages. The excess voltage is
radiated away as heat.

This is where you are wrong. A resister of infinite resistance flushes
nothing down the drain.

A resister can dissipate heat but it does not dissipate it in the
manner that you are thinking. The heat dissipated is only the
amperage times the voltage drop across the resister, so the
wasted energy is controlled by the total circuit. If the total circuit
draws a lot of current and you have a dropping resister in series
then you would waste a lot of heat.

Another flaw in your thinking is that transformers work with DC.
They don't.............. They work in Ac circuits only. In most AC
circuits the voltage reduction needed is almost always done with a
transformers. In DC circuits if the circuit draws any current to speak
of the circuit will use electronic voltage regulation.
 
C

CJT

Wade Hassler wrote:
And while we're at it, let's get rid of bad weather and entropy.
Wade Hassler

And friction. Things would run so much cooler without it.
 
S

Sofie

feklar:
Please understand that we are laughing with you.... not at you, and
certainly not at your expense.
Some of the best inventions that we enjoy today were harebrain, impossible
sounding, ideas that, at the time, were laughed at and scoffed by the
experts. Keep up the brainstorming and by all means stay around this
newsgroup.... it is an interesting place to be because of the variety of
folks who contribute.... you included.
 
C

Colin McCormick

I remember having similar thoughts as a
youngster, I reckoned all resistors could
be replaced by light bulbs and at least
you would get something for all the wasted
energy. And occasionally you do see an
LED used inside a circuit for voltage
dropping, so crazy ideas do have applications.

Certainly modern circuits use fewer large
resistors than they used to. In the 70's,
most TV's had large "dropper" resistors
providing voltages throughout the set.
They consumed a lot of energy, and gave
out a lot of heat. Today we have much
more efficient power supplies.

Perhaps, in your own way Feklar, you're
not so far off the mark.

Colin
 
S

Sofie

snipped:
Certainly modern circuits use fewer large
resistors than they used to. In the 70's,
most TV's had large "dropper" resistors
providing voltages throughout the set.
They consumed a lot of energy, and gave
out a lot of heat. Today we have much
more efficient power supplies.
-----------------------------


Instead of a lot of heat producing, power wasting
voltage dropping resistors, we NOW have a lot of
heat producing, power dissapating (wasting), large
voltage regulator chips, SCRs, power transistors,
zener diodes, and other semiconductors
that do the voltage dropping job better but there is
still voltage dropped, power dissapaated (wasted)
and heat produced.
This is progress for sure.
 
J

Jason D.

Sofie said:
Instead of a lot of heat producing, power wasting
voltage dropping resistors, we NOW have a lot of
heat producing, power dissapating (wasting), large
voltage regulator chips, SCRs, power transistors,
zener diodes, and other semiconductors
that do the voltage dropping job better but there is
still voltage dropped, power dissapaated (wasted)
and heat produced.
This is progress for sure.

Replace several of those regulators with switching regulators or pull
power right off seperate windings of that SMPS like 3.3V, 5V etc.

Dropping voltages by resistors still are used in vertical circuits
(RCA), etc.

Cheers,

Wizard
 
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