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Scope attenuators 1,2,5, why bother?

J

Joerg

krw said:
Thanks. Hmm, looks nice but it's algebraic. Ouch. Were it RPN
I'd buy something Palm to go with it. As is, I'll have to think
hard. My other option was to learn how to write an Excel function.
The drawback there is that I don't have an Excel license (that
still works, anyway) and OO Calc is too different.

All the math functions I've used so far in Excel are the same as in OO.
Big exception: None of this Excel-VBA stuff has ever worked in OO here
and IMHO that's one reason why it won't make big inroads into the biz world.
 
K

krw

sci.electronics.design, [email protected]
says...
All the math functions I've used so far in Excel are the same as in OO.
Big exception: None of this Excel-VBA stuff has ever worked in OO here
and IMHO that's one reason why it won't make big inroads into the biz world.

I've done some weird stuff in Excel, but to tackle a calculator I
think I'm going to need VBA. I bought a VBA book it got yanked off
the project I needed it for.
 
J

Joel Koltner

Joerg said:
All the math functions I've used so far in Excel are the same as in OO. Big
exception: None of this Excel-VBA stuff has ever worked in OO here and IMHO
that's one reason why it won't make big inroads into the biz world.

I expect you're correct, Joerg, although I don't blame the OO guys for taking
the "high road" and using Python as the primary "programming" language in
OO-Calc -- it's arguably more powerful than VBA in ways that would matter to
engineers (e.g., easy to find very fancy math support packages such as the
NumPy distribution).

I believe there was some splinter group that was trying to get VBA into OO
anyway...

---Joel
 
J

Joerg

krw said:
sci.electronics.design, [email protected]
says...

I've done some weird stuff in Excel, but to tackle a calculator I
think I'm going to need VBA. I bought a VBA book it got yanked off
the project I needed it for.

Yes, you most likely do need VBA. Or have some large "invisible" scratch
area for cell calcs, that's how I do some intricate EE calcs. VBA will
require Excel but the good news is that older versions also include VBA,
AFAIK all the way back to 97.

Here is where I bought some SW, in my case a 3D CAD package from a
liquidation sale, for pennies on the Dollar:
http://store.purplus.net/microsoftstore.html
 
J

Joerg

Joel said:
I expect you're correct, Joerg, although I don't blame the OO guys for taking
the "high road" and using Python as the primary "programming" language in
OO-Calc -- it's arguably more powerful than VBA in ways that would matter to
engineers (e.g., easy to find very fancy math support packages such as the
NumPy distribution).

Sure, but this means you can't use OO in a lot of EE projects. For
example, I could not use OO at a client for industrial automation
because those HW modules generally come with VBA routines, LabView
routines and the usual HMI/SCADA stuff. No Python, no Delphi.

I believe there was some splinter group that was trying to get VBA into OO
anyway...

It would have made a lot of sense. But often there is that "renegade
spirit" in the open source world where it is frowned upon to take the
established paths.
 
T

Tim Shoppa

So, while waiting for parts to arrive, I have been diddling sketches on anA4 piece
of paper, on how to design the the minimal cost attenuator, for the PIC scope I am planning.

Now I peaked at one scope I have here, and it has an 11 position switch
10mv, 20 mV, 50 mV, 100 mV, 200mV, 500mV, 11V, 2V, 5V, 10V, 20V

Now that sucks in a way, as counting to 5 is very difficult,
as we all think binary these days ;-)

The other thing that is interesting, is that the PIC ADC is 10 bits,
and I have a 64 pixel high LCD.
So I actually only need 6 bits (2^6 = 64 if it escaped you) for display.
That is still better then 2/100 or 2% accuracy, so fine with me.

So 10 bits in, and use only 6, then we can bit-shift, and use the 4 bits shift
to make attenuator steps of 2, 4, 8, 16
This reduces hardware (switching) people!

Then I was thinking:
Why not use binary on the settings? much easier.
So then you get sensitivity of:
10mV, 20mV, 40mV, 80mV, 160mV per division.
And maybe then continue, after switching gain ONCE:
320mV, 640mV, 1.28V, 2.56V, 5.12V per division.

Looks like a need for 2 more steps for higher voltage, 10.24V, and 20.48V / div.

For 64 pixels high and 8 divisions vertical that leaves 8 pixels per division.
makes a max voltage of 163.84V full screen (at 1x probe).

We can have a cursor on the trace, and a volts display, so who cares even if it
switched ranges in octal ;-)

I think you are looking at scope functionality solely in terms of
quantitative precision. This is a mistake.

95% of scope functionality does not come from making quantitative
measurements (except on a very gross scale), but from seeing
waveforms.

It matters very very little exactly what units are on the screen for
the "seeing waveforms" aspect. What matters completely is being able
to comfortably and quickly adjust the scale to match the features in
the waveform you are interested in looking at.

And I feel that having only 64 steps is pretty hopelessly coarse. With
a good analog scope from 40 years ago, I can see ripple of fuzz or
glitches or noise that's way less than 1 percent of full scale. Being
able to see that ripple/fuzz/glitches is very very important to most
of the uses I'm using a scope for.

A scope that only has 64 steps is pretty crappy in those terms. I
mean, I can focus the beam on a 40-year-old analog scope way more
tightly than the 64 steps.

I know, I didn't answer your actual question. I'm just urging you to
step back from an overly-quantitative analysis and think about what
you (if not I!) use the scope for.

Others, I think, don't "look for the picture" the way I do. That's why
the market is flooded with cheap crappy digital scopes. (The expensive
digital scopes do generally do it right!) These are probably the same
people who always write down as many decimal points as their
calculator displays :). I grew up with slide rules and I don't
believe anything after the second or third digit anyway, because I
know none of the inputs are known that accurately!

Tim.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

I think you are looking at scope functionality solely in terms of
quantitative precision. This is a mistake.

No, that is not so, I appreciate waveforms a lot.
This is only a toy project, and the LCD only has 128x64, so with a screen
like that you cannot change anything to get more resolution.

95% of scope functionality does not come from making quantitative
measurements (except on a very gross scale), but from seeing
waveforms.

It matters very very little exactly what units are on the screen for
the "seeing waveforms" aspect. What matters completely is being able
to comfortably and quickly adjust the scale to match the features in
the waveform you are interested in looking at.

It is both sort of important in my view.

And I feel that having only 64 steps is pretty hopelessly coarse. With
a good analog scope from 40 years ago, I can see ripple of fuzz or
glitches or noise that's way less than 1 percent of full scale.

Sure, I do 625 lines TV with the old analog TRIO:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/scope_tv/index.html

Being
able to see that ripple/fuzz/glitches is very very important to most
of the uses I'm using a scope for.

Digital scope has the advantage that you do not have to darken the room
and hunt for that edge :)

A scope that only has 64 steps is pretty crappy in those terms. I
mean, I can focus the beam on a 40-year-old analog scope way more
tightly than the 64 steps.

I know, I didn't answer your actual question. I'm just urging you to
step back from an overly-quantitative analysis and think about what
you (if not I!) use the scope for.

Others, I think, don't "look for the picture" the way I do. That's why
the market is flooded with cheap crappy digital scopes. (The expensive
digital scopes do generally do it right!) These are probably the same
people who always write down as many decimal points as their
calculator displays :). I grew up with slide rules and I don't
believe anything after the second or third digit anyway, because I
know none of the inputs are known that accurately!

Tim.

Yes, Tim, I grew up with slide rule too.
I remember one of the shocking first experiences when first playing
with a computer, that poke 65535, 123 actually returned 123
when using peek (65535), and that there was nothing in 65534 (that changed).
The precision of digital makes a lot possible.

Just made a small RF Watt meter with a PIC and LCD.
148.0 W, now try that with an analog meter... Or an analog scope.
 
K

krw

sci.electronics.design, [email protected]
says...
Yes, you most likely do need VBA. Or have some large "invisible" scratch
area for cell calcs, that's how I do some intricate EE calcs. VBA will
require Excel but the good news is that older versions also include VBA,
AFAIK all the way back to 97.

I've used the "invisible cell" trick many times. I made an ECC
demo a couple of years back using such tricks.

I have a copy of '97 but can't get it to run on XP (forget Vista).
If there is the equivalent in OO (Pyhon??), I suppose I can do
that. I can't use OO on my work machine but I'd rather do it on
mine and learn only learn one. If I have to learn a language it
might just as well be Python.
Here is where I bought some SW, in my case a 3D CAD package from a
liquidation sale, for pennies on the Dollar:
http://store.purplus.net/microsoftstore.html

Still expensive. Which CAD package? I'm looking for a decent one.
I've been using A9CAD but it's really hard to use.
 
J

Joerg

krw said:
sci.electronics.design, [email protected]
says...

I've used the "invisible cell" trick many times. I made an ECC
demo a couple of years back using such tricks.

I have a copy of '97 but can't get it to run on XP (forget Vista).


'97 runs fine on XP. Don't know about Vista because that stuff won't see
the inside of this office for a long, long time. Maybe never.

If there is the equivalent in OO (Pyhon??), I suppose I can do
that. I can't use OO on my work machine but I'd rather do it on
mine and learn only learn one. If I have to learn a language it
might just as well be Python.

If for personal stuff, why not? I usually try to stick with whatever is
used the most in our industry. Right now with my clients that's VBA, C
and HMI/SCADA.

Still expensive. Which CAD package? I'm looking for a decent one.
I've been using A9CAD but it's really hard to use.

DesignCAD 3D Max, version 15.3. That was two versions before the current
one at that time. But at around ten bucks who cares? As it is the
software is way overkill for me but I needed it because clients send me
rather fine pitch AutoCAD drawings. The usual programs can't render
them, even IrfanView could not.
 
R

Rich Webb

Joerg said:
krw wrote: ....


'97 runs fine on XP. Don't know about Vista because that stuff won't see
the inside of this office for a long, long time. Maybe never.

XP SP2 "broke" the ability to install MS Office 97. IIRC, if it was
already installed prior to adding SP2, it worked fine. Problem is,
of course, that retail/OEM XP disks have been at the SP2 level for
a few years. I'm sure MS didn't break the install on purpose...

Not wanting to pay the MS tax er ... "upgrade fee" for a later copy
of MS Office I shifted over to the SoftMaker office suite for a
mostly-compatible alternative. So far, I've had very few problems
with it.
If for personal stuff, why not? I usually try to stick with whatever is
used the most in our industry. Right now with my clients that's VBA, C
and HMI/SCADA.

The current (2008) version of the SoftMaker suite does include a
VBA-like (or VBA-compatible?) language and interface. It "looks"
right but I do very little with VBA so I'm not a good judge of it.

Your mileage may vary, objects in mirror are closer than they appear,
take two tablets before bedtime, etc. I'm just a customer who's glad
to be able to open docs and spreadsheets from Corporate on my personal
laptop without having to spring for the MS products.

http://www.softmaker.com/english/
 
J

Joel Koltner

Rich Webb said:
XP SP2 "broke" the ability to install MS Office 97. IIRC, if it was
already installed prior to adding SP2, it worked fine. Problem is,
of course, that retail/OEM XP disks have been at the SP2 level for
a few years. I'm sure MS didn't break the install on purpose...

Yeah, with BIll Gates it's hard to say...

Here's the fix for installing Office 97 on XP SP2, if you need it:
http://www.computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/forum/143992.html

Some Microsoft guy has been recently quoted as claiming that OpenOffice is
"ten years behind" Microsoft Office. I wonder if he realize that, even
assuming that's a true statement, at least for individual use very few people
actually use all the features already present in Office 97 and thus would be
perfectly served by OO?

I hadn't heard of SoftMaker before; thanks for the link.

---Joel
 
R

Rich Webb

Joel said:
Yeah, with BIll Gates it's hard to say...

Here's the fix for installing Office 97 on XP SP2, if you need it:
http://www.computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/forum/143992.html

Aha! Thanks for that. MS has trained me to look for other solutions
but one never knows when the genuine app may be needed. The original
installation disk is stuffed *somewhere* back on the bookshelf.
Some Microsoft guy has been recently quoted as claiming that OpenOffice is
"ten years behind" Microsoft Office. I wonder if he realize that, even
assuming that's a true statement, at least for individual use very few people
actually use all the features already present in Office 97 and thus would be
perfectly served by OO?

I hadn't heard of SoftMaker before; thanks for the link.

Yes, I've been pretty happy with it. Have OOo installed as well, of
course, but for the most part the SoftMaker apps seem to be lighter
(faster) and more "compatible" than the corresponding ones in OOo.
 
K

krw

sci.electronics.design, [email protected]
says...
They tried to teach us that stuff at university. In my case without the
slightest chance of convincing me to use it. I just looked at the old
HP11C. Surprise: It can do grads. But it won't do grits.
Neiither will I. Yes, my HP45 will do grads too. We were told,
when I got my '45, that grads were used by civil types since
arithmetic in grads was simpler in the field. I don't think I buy
it because trig is the same no matter how many times the circle is
sliced. I can understand wanting an integer number of slices
though.
 
K

krw

'97 runs fine on XP. Don't know about Vista because that stuff won't see
the inside of this office for a long, long time. Maybe never.

As others have noted, it doesn't install. I'll try their solutions.
If for personal stuff, why not? I usually try to stick with whatever is
used the most in our industry. Right now with my clients that's VBA, C
and HMI/SCADA.

Not personal but I'm not making tools for others to use either. In
particular I need a function that can do binary fractional fixed
point arithmetic for some verification work. I'd like to process
the results where I can understand them before throwing it all into
the simulation. ...at least for the first pass.
DesignCAD 3D Max, version 15.3. That was two versions before the current
one at that time. But at around ten bucks who cares? As it is the
software is way overkill for me but I needed it because clients send me
rather fine pitch AutoCAD drawings. The usual programs can't render
them, even IrfanView could not.

I'll take a look. I need something for personal use (laying out
tile floors worked great in a CAD system) but I couldn't get my arms
around A9CAD. It took forever for a simple 2-D, multi-level drawing
and then I couldn't figure out how to shift one level relative to
the rest.
 
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