Salvaging an improper geothermal install

[Harry Chickpea]

They sold you a system that should work as ARI and as their adds specify, it
doesn't. So either the unit is broken or THEY SCREWED UP!

You will never sell your home in the future if you do all this stuff to it,
why should you take the hammer for their mess ups?

Go after them and politely tell them to fix it right or tear it out and
refund your money.

Amen.

Astro, I've been sitting out this thread, waiting in vain for you to
come to your senses. There is too much money involved to be screwing
around trying to kludge a repair. Give them fair warning, then if
that doesn't work, get an attorney and sue the pants off the suckers.
_Anything_ you do trying to modify the system may let them off the
hook. Save your screwing around for an old junker AC if you want to
play HVAC technician.

Geoman has been politely trying to tell you that you've been f--ked up
the a-- and are either too sweet or too stupid to complain.

Don't be confused. Your desire to tinker and understand the system
has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem. You've been sold a
defective system, just as much as if you had been sold a car that
wouldn't make it out of the driveway. You wouldn't buy a junkyard
replacement engine for a new car that you had just bought, and let the
dealer off the hook, why on earth do you consider this any different?

Quit being a pussy, wasting your precious time here and deflecting
your personal energy, and nail the bastards to the wall with the
biggest rusty spikes you can find.

Geoman, I like the way you think.

 

[Robert Morien]

Oh, the Jews in Germany weren't very good marksmen either. Hitler outlawed
guns because he knew that they were dangerous...

Wrong

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html

 

[pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

Geo. come on now.

If it was not for guns, a bunch of former Europeans would not have
freedom at the price of the indigenous people of North America.

So the arguement really is, guns made it better for the white people of
North America at the expense of other people.

It's those damned Vikings, I'm telling ya ..... they just make
for TERRIBLE neighbors !!!!

On the other hand, if it were not for guns, Canada would have been
annexed back around 1812.

By who ?

WE damned sure don't want it ...... too cold, and full of
liberals .....

54 40 didn't work so expansion went SW
If it were not for guns, Mexico would be bigger.

And still have bad water.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

 

[Geoman]

Geo. come on now.

If it was not for guns, a bunch of former Europeans would not have
freedom at the price of the indigenous people of North America.

Correct, and if the indigenous people would have had guns then possibly
there wouldn't have been a takeover. Therefore, I'm keeping my guns!

So the arguement really is, guns made it better for the white people of
North America at the expense of other people.

Yep, God made little people and small people, Smith and Wesson made them all
equal. another argument to buy more guns!

On the other hand, if it were not for guns, Canada would have been
annexed back around 1812.

Yep, Admiral Perry put them in their place for sure!

54 40 didn't work so expansion went SW
If it were not for guns, Mexico would be bigger.

If it wasn't for guns we wouldn't have been able to steal it from the
Mexicans

 

[Geoman]

Wrong

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html

Interesting link, thanks

Rich

 

[Geoman]

It's those damned Vikings, I'm telling ya ..... they just make
for TERRIBLE neighbors !!!!


By who ?

WE damned sure don't want it ...... too cold, and full of
liberals .....


And still have bad water.

LOL!!! I think that list can really be expanded on Paul!!!

 

[Geoman]

Amen.

Astro, I've been sitting out this thread, waiting in vain for you to
come to your senses. There is too much money involved to be screwing
around trying to kludge a repair. Give them fair warning, then if
that doesn't work, get an attorney and sue the pants off the suckers.
_Anything_ you do trying to modify the system may let them off the
hook. Save your screwing around for an old junker AC if you want to
play HVAC technician.

Geoman has been politely trying to tell you that you've been f--ked up
the a-- and are either too sweet or too stupid to complain.

Don't be confused. Your desire to tinker and understand the system
has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem. You've been sold a
defective system, just as much as if you had been sold a car that
wouldn't make it out of the driveway. You wouldn't buy a junkyard
replacement engine for a new car that you had just bought, and let the
dealer off the hook, why on earth do you consider this any different?

Quit being a pussy, wasting your precious time here and deflecting
your personal energy, and nail the bastards to the wall with the
biggest rusty spikes you can find.

Geoman, I like the way you think.

Thanks,

Everything I learned about standing up for myself I learned from Paul,,,,,

Rich

 

[Ben Phlat]

I ran an ad in the local paper "Wanted Land by private party"
Less than a week later a person called who had 10 very desirable
acres, just what I wanted. Deal was struck, no realtors, my new house
sits on it today.

 

[Ben Phlat]

Sorry, replyed to the wrong message.

I ran an ad in the local paper "Wanted Land by private party"
Less than a week later a person called who had 10 very desirable
acres, just what I wanted. Deal was struck, no realtors, my new house
sits on it today.

 

[Astro]

Thanks,

Everything I learned about standing up for myself I learned from
Paul,,,,,

Rich

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

Your comments regarding future repairs is well taken.

Thanks all for the feedback and informative posts.

 

[Harry Chickpea]

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

In a case like this, I would have had any "final" note come under the
attorney's letterhead. You now are in the position of having to have
the attorney file papers and an important step has been skipped.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

That isn't an issue. The remedy from the court will be a judgement
against them for the amount you paid them plus any costs you have
incurred. That means you get to have the sheriff go and collect your
money from them or seize their property. If they want to negotiate a
settlement prior to court, then you can stipulate the conditions, such
as an independent review paid for by the contractor, a performance
guarantee, and a warranty for X months. If you don't like their
counter offer, you go to court. Your attorney should have informed
you of all this. If not, perhaps your attorney isn't providing
sufficient heat either, and need to be replaced.

 

[Jon Elson]

Great point Jon. I agree. It would be stupid to go through all that
trouble to run loops down with the others when I could just put in a
real heat exchanger. I was hoping not to break the loops to install a
heat exchanger but it would appear to be the "right" approach.

here's a question for you, and it will expose my ignorance, but I'll
risk that anyway.

If you install a heat exchanger, either in series with the current
ground loops or which can be switched in instead of the ground loops,
won't that change the refrigerant pressures in the loops as well as
oil circulation etc.? Wouldn't the compressor cycle have to be
charged right specifically for a specific setup making dynamic
switching infeasible?

I was trying to figure out how to do this, by putting both exchangers in
series. But, it probably
can't work like that, for a heat pump. If you put the exchanger before
the ground loop, then you
might end up heating the ground. If you put it after the ground loop,
all the refrigerant might end
up as a big pool of liquid at the bottom of the bore holes (still in the
pipe, but cold and not
evaporating).

To make sure I'm understanding correctly, you mean a coaxial
water/refrigerant heat exchanger like here:
http://www.doucetteindustries.com/coaxial.html

I didn't look, but that is what I had in mind. That's what the
water-loop backed heat pumps use.

And if I go with an open loop, standing column well setup (which
should be really easy to implement given my existing 950ft well),
then I suppose it might be wise to go with a cupro-nickel heat
exchanger to reduce potential problems due to water quality.

Yeah, running well water through the exchanger might lead to problems.
I think you'd have
a LOT more trouble with the air conditioning mode precipitating salts
out of the water than
with the heating mode. You shouldn't have much pricipitation of
dissolved salts that way, but
you might still have corrosion, depending on the chemistry of that well
water. Some dielectric
unions might go a long way toward solving the corrosion problem.

Have I got this all down?

What I'd like to do is go back to the manufacturer/installer and say
"look, rather than having to tear up the system you installed
improperly and spend days digging more wells, installing new loops,
etc., I just want you to install this heat exchanger and I'll handle
the rest."

To me, that's something of a win-win. Rather than suing them and
forcing them to totally fix the system (in a way that still might not
work very well), I give them the opportunity to provide a simple fix.
Then I can experiment to my heart's content with ground loops, well
water, solar heating, or whatever, without ever having to tamper with
the main system.

If you provide the exchanger and plumbing, and just want the labor, and
tell them you
have EXCELLENT grounds to sue the hell out of them, and will do so
otherwise, you
may get help with this. Faced with such a situation, I'd jump at the
chance to fix it all
up. But, then I can't imagine a company that totally screws up a
customer's installation and
then just walks away. I'm in a totally different business, but I've
had to buy back some
gear that just didn't work out for a customer.

Good luck!

Jon

 

[Geoman]

I was trying to figure out how to do this, by putting both exchangers in
series. But, it probably
can't work like that, for a heat pump. If you put the exchanger before
the ground loop, then you
might end up heating the ground. If you put it after the ground loop, all
the refrigerant might end
up as a big pool of liquid at the bottom of the bore holes (still in the
pipe, but cold and not
evaporating).


I didn't look, but that is what I had in mind. That's what the water-loop
backed heat pumps use.


Yeah, running well water through the exchanger might lead to problems. I
think you'd have
a LOT more trouble with the air conditioning mode precipitating salts out
of the water than
with the heating mode. You shouldn't have much pricipitation of dissolved
salts that way, but
you might still have corrosion, depending on the chemistry of that well
water. Some dielectric
unions might go a long way toward solving the corrosion problem.


If you provide the exchanger and plumbing, and just want the labor, and
tell them you
have EXCELLENT grounds to sue the hell out of them, and will do so
otherwise, you
may get help with this. Faced with such a situation, I'd jump at the
chance to fix it all
up. But, then I can't imagine a company that totally screws up a
customer's installation and
then just walks away. I'm in a totally different business, but I've had
to buy back some
gear that just didn't work out for a customer.

Good luck!

Jon

Oil return would be a complete Guess if it ever would! An oversized
condenser may never bring it back since velocity would be down and the pipe
size would be too restrictive, requiring an overcharge.

I wish Gary, Paul or Marc could expound on this, they are very good in this
kind of mathematics.

Rich

 

[pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

Oil return would be a complete Guess if it ever would! An oversized
condenser may never bring it back since velocity would be down and the pipe
size would be too restrictive, requiring an overcharge.

I wish Gary, Paul or Marc could expound on this, they are very good in this
kind of mathematics.

I wish someone would put some money on the table

As a general concept, oil coming FROM the condensor would not
be an issue in and of itself, because it is miscible in liquid freon,
and will be carried by the liquid. Pressure drop from the rise and
the pipe size certainly WOULD be an issue.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

 

[David Lesher]

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

Your comments regarding future repairs is well taken.

Thanks all for the feedback and informative posts.

I'd have to nod to the legal approach as well.

I have to ask; what drove you to use a direct system to begin with?
The ones I've see all use brine-filled well [or horz.] loops; and
thus would be directly extendable as needed. From what I've read;
direct systems were a Bad Idea [sm] if only because a leak
was very expensive....

 

[Astro]

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the
installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

Your comments regarding future repairs is well taken.

Thanks all for the feedback and informative posts.

I'd have to nod to the legal approach as well.

I have to ask; what drove you to use a direct system to begin with?
The ones I've see all use brine-filled well [or horz.] loops; and
thus would be directly extendable as needed. From what I've read;
direct systems were a Bad Idea [sm] if only because a leak
was very expensive....

If I knew then what I know now....

Seriously though, to answer your question. I went with a vertical system
because I'm on top of a solid hill of granite, with boulders poking out
all around the property. I felt trenching would be very difficult because
of the prevalence of these boulders. A vertical system seemed less
intrusive to the property and, in theory, could yield better performance
because of the minimal seasonal ground temperature variations.

I went with the direct exchange system because I was looking to push the
efficiency as high as possible. Eliminating a fractional HP water pump
could cut out an energy use from the system that would drive the system
COP down. One would think though that the compressor would have to work
harder to move the refrigerant through hundreds of feet of tubing rather
than just through a heat exchanger, so it's not entirely a free lunch.

Another advantage to the direct exchange system is that you're eliminating
one heat exchange step, so that should help things somewhat. Plus, with
direct copper-ground contact, the thermal transfer characteristics should
be excellent. The HDPE tubing used for typical ground loops has far lower
thermal conductivity than copper.

As for repairs, they might be less expensive for this system than other
vertical systems because the bores aren't grouted per-se. They're filled
with sand. If one of the loops develops a leak, they can either flood the
hole and pump out the sand and pull up the loop or just drill the sand
out. With a horizontal system, I guess you'd have to re-trench the faulty
ground loop, so I can't see that it would be any cheaper to repair unless
there's some clever way to determine exactly where the leak is and just
dig straight down to that spot.

The short answer to your question is that, from an engineering standpoint,
the direct system seems better.

 

[Geoman]

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the
installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

Your comments regarding future repairs is well taken.

Thanks all for the feedback and informative posts.

I'd have to nod to the legal approach as well.

I have to ask; what drove you to use a direct system to begin with?
The ones I've see all use brine-filled well [or horz.] loops; and
thus would be directly extendable as needed. From what I've read;
direct systems were a Bad Idea [sm] if only because a leak
was very expensive....

If I knew then what I know now....

Seriously though, to answer your question. I went with a vertical system
because I'm on top of a solid hill of granite, with boulders poking out
all around the property. I felt trenching would be very difficult because
of the prevalence of these boulders. A vertical system seemed less
intrusive to the property and, in theory, could yield better performance
because of the minimal seasonal ground temperature variations.

I went with the direct exchange system because I was looking to push the
efficiency as high as possible. Eliminating a fractional HP water pump
could cut out an energy use from the system that would drive the system
COP down. One would think though that the compressor would have to work
harder to move the refrigerant through hundreds of feet of tubing rather
than just through a heat exchanger, so it's not entirely a free lunch.

Another advantage to the direct exchange system is that you're eliminating
one heat exchange step, so that should help things somewhat. Plus, with
direct copper-ground contact, the thermal transfer characteristics should
be excellent. The HDPE tubing used for typical ground loops has far lower
thermal conductivity than copper.

As for repairs, they might be less expensive for this system than other
vertical systems because the bores aren't grouted per-se. They're filled
with sand. If one of the loops develops a leak, they can either flood the
hole and pump out the sand and pull up the loop or just drill the sand
out. With a horizontal system, I guess you'd have to re-trench the faulty
ground loop, so I can't see that it would be any cheaper to repair unless
there's some clever way to determine exactly where the leak is and just
dig straight down to that spot.

The short answer to your question is that, from an engineering standpoint,
the direct system seems better.

AStro, thanks for posting this, its nice to see the 'other side' as to why
someone purchased a certain system over another.

The major reason I don't like them personally is there is no good way to
control cleanliness and then I see them use soft solder just makes me
cringe.

Another issue is if you have a leak with a DX there are other issues that a
water system doesn't have. A DX system can be fixed, but think about the
contaminates getting into the system before it is known that there is a
problem, sand, water, chemicals, dirt and maybe other things. If you have a
leak on a water HP and its on the loop side at least the Geo itself isn't
contaminated and life expectancy is reduced.

Another issue is consistency in refrigeration flow. If you curve or bend one
loop differently than another then that loop will be short of capacity due
to more restriction. I'm sure that they only use one metering device on the
outside loop. This would cause a situation where not all loops are equal.
Just too many fears for me to make the jump into selling them. I guess time
will tell. I guess what I'm saying is this, if a simple air conditioner
built under ideal conditions in a factory develops leaks even under
warranty, why would anyone think burying tons of soil on top of refrigerant
lines is a good idea?

Just my way of thinking, I'm sure there are many that are running well, but
I don't know of any in our area to compare it too.

Rich

 

[Geoman]

I wish someone would put some money on the table

As a general concept, oil coming FROM the condensor would not
be an issue in and of itself, because it is miscible in liquid freon,
and will be carried by the liquid. Pressure drop from the rise and
the pipe size certainly WOULD be an issue.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's
http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

I should have expanded my thoughts more, and maybe I'm still wrong.

To add an additional water to refrigerant exchanger for obtaining more
heating BTU's in winter, they are virtually increasing loop size in heating
mode, acting like an evaporator. This would require additional refrigerant
to provide this extra energy absorption. So, we have an oversized evaporator
in the yard for during heating, no problem. But when the unit switch's to
cooling mode the outside loop is now the condenser and will be short on gas
do to the extra amount of physical size and capacity. The overcharge would
not be enough to flood the condenser outside loop and oil may entrap due to
lack of charge. So, the HVAC guy comes along and says, "Hey, this unit is
low on gas, I'll charge it' All works good until the unit reverses cycle
again and the unit is going off on high pressure. Of course a properly sized
receiver may correct this, but now the entire geothermal system has been re
engineered.

I'm open to correction as always,

Rich

 

[Astro]

I appreciate the candor and frankness of your replies. To fill you
in, I
have been working with an attorney since before I started the thread
and
have given the contractor and manufacturer their final "fix it or
else"
warning, even copying the attorney on that note and neither the
installer
nor the manufacturer replied.

The problem I have is that, given the hack job they did in the first
place, I don't even trust them to properly "fix" it.

Your comments regarding future repairs is well taken.

Thanks all for the feedback and informative posts.

I'd have to nod to the legal approach as well.

I have to ask; what drove you to use a direct system to begin with?
The ones I've see all use brine-filled well [or horz.] loops; and
thus would be directly extendable as needed. From what I've read;
direct systems were a Bad Idea [sm] if only because a leak
was very expensive....

If I knew then what I know now....

Seriously though, to answer your question. I went with a vertical system
because I'm on top of a solid hill of granite, with boulders poking out
all around the property. I felt trenching would be very difficult
because
of the prevalence of these boulders. A vertical system seemed less
intrusive to the property and, in theory, could yield better performance
because of the minimal seasonal ground temperature variations.

I went with the direct exchange system because I was looking to push the
efficiency as high as possible. Eliminating a fractional HP water pump
could cut out an energy use from the system that would drive the system
COP down. One would think though that the compressor would have to work
harder to move the refrigerant through hundreds of feet of tubing rather
than just through a heat exchanger, so it's not entirely a free lunch.

Another advantage to the direct exchange system is that you're
eliminating
one heat exchange step, so that should help things somewhat. Plus, with
direct copper-ground contact, the thermal transfer characteristics
should
be excellent. The HDPE tubing used for typical ground loops has far
lower
thermal conductivity than copper.

As for repairs, they might be less expensive for this system than other
vertical systems because the bores aren't grouted per-se. They're filled
with sand. If one of the loops develops a leak, they can either flood
the
hole and pump out the sand and pull up the loop or just drill the sand
out. With a horizontal system, I guess you'd have to re-trench the
faulty
ground loop, so I can't see that it would be any cheaper to repair
unless
there's some clever way to determine exactly where the leak is and just
dig straight down to that spot.

The short answer to your question is that, from an engineering
standpoint,
the direct system seems better.

AStro, thanks for posting this, its nice to see the 'other side' as to
why
someone purchased a certain system over another.

The major reason I don't like them personally is there is no good way to
control cleanliness and then I see them use soft solder just makes me
cringe.

Another issue is if you have a leak with a DX there are other issues
that a
water system doesn't have. A DX system can be fixed, but think about the
contaminates getting into the system before it is known that there is a
problem, sand, water, chemicals, dirt and maybe other things. If you
have a
leak on a water HP and its on the loop side at least the Geo itself isn't
contaminated and life expectancy is reduced.

Another issue is consistency in refrigeration flow. If you curve or bend
one
loop differently than another then that loop will be short of capacity
due
to more restriction. I'm sure that they only use one metering device on
the
outside loop. This would cause a situation where not all loops are equal.
Just too many fears for me to make the jump into selling them. I guess
time
will tell. I guess what I'm saying is this, if a simple air conditioner
built under ideal conditions in a factory develops leaks even under
warranty, why would anyone think burying tons of soil on top of
refrigerant
lines is a good idea?

Just my way of thinking, I'm sure there are many that are running well,
but
I don't know of any in our area to compare it too.

Rich

You make a powerful argument. One loop failure and it sounds like a new
compressor would be a very likely outcome. Likewise, the opportunity for
contaminents getting in during the installation is all too great. To me,
this is the best reason I've heard for avoiding the DX system.

While we're talking about contamination, here's another question for the
pros.
When they pulled my old evap/cond out, they kept the old lines in as they
said the sizing was fine and they seemed to be in good shape. However,
they also kept the old line dryer filter canister in the liquid line. I
really didn't feel qualified to tell them which way to go. The guy doing
the installation asked his boss who said something like "There's already
one in the unit so it's not necessary but couldn't hurt to have a second
one."

My old system was something close to 20 years old and I wouldn't be
surprised if the dryer was too.

Now, am I right in thinking that this was another 'hack' move? Won't this
dryer: a) risk releasing contaminents into the system; b) restrict the
refrigerant flow.

When they come back to fix up the system, should I insist that they remove
the extra dryer from the system?

 

[pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

While we're talking about contamination, here's another question for the
pros.
When they pulled my old evap/cond out, they kept the old lines in as they
said the sizing was fine and they seemed to be in good shape. However,
they also kept the old line dryer filter canister in the liquid line. I
really didn't feel qualified to tell them which way to go. The guy doing
the installation asked his boss who said something like "There's already
one in the unit so it's not necessary but couldn't hurt to have a second
one."

My old system was something close to 20 years old and I wouldn't be
surprised if the dryer was too.

Now, am I right in thinking that this was another 'hack' move? Won't this
dryer: a) risk releasing contaminents into the system; b) restrict the
refrigerant flow.

When they come back to fix up the system, should I insist that they remove
the extra dryer from the system?

Yes .... AND replace the one that is left with a new one.
This is mandatory, not optional.





Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/