A
Astro
see comments interspersed:
Actually, I came up with something shy of 35kBTU/hr not including
infiltration. As you note, there could be a big slop factor in there. I
wouldn't be surprised if the true load at a design temperature of 5F was
60kBTU/h. I actually wanted a slightly undersized system, designed more
for around 15F so that I'd get the reduced consumption of a smaller
compressor for the majority of the run-time. However, I wasn't planning on
the BTU output dropping to ~50% of the rated output after a day or two of
use!
I had them put the sensors 50ft down the holes along with the loops so
that I'm getting a good feeling for ground temperature change due to the
loops, not seasonal surface temperature variations.
You're good! the 18F rise is achieved when the loop field is right around
freezing.
I don't know the pressures. Was thinking of getting a set of gauges so
that I could measure them, but I don't want to screw with the system
without supervision of someone who is qualified.
The manufacturer wouldn't provide me with the output curve. However, based
on their literature and what I gather from emails from their tech people,
the 4-ton rating is for ~50F ground temp. This matches well with my
experience - on the first day of operation, there was a 30F rise, and that
was when the ground was 51F.
I've let it drop to ~30F. At that point, the output is so low (<15F temp
rise) that I turn it off for a day and run off oil until the ground
temperature recovers so I'm not blowing "cold" air. I'll try a long term
test to see if there what the point is at which the temperatures bottom
out.
Central return straight(goes thorough a 90 at the ceiling) into the
horizontal handler in the attic.
I've gone up and checked for input and output leaks and taped things up
carefully with metal tape. Probably should go around with mastic and seal
things up good. But at least for these measurements, I'm pretty sure that
I'm losing a minimal amount to return leaks.
Actually, I think you still do with the DX to some extent. Since the wet
sand still has to go through the phase change, there's definitely a
flattening of the curve where you draw for a while at freezing then drops
below. Likewise, it takes 6 hours to phase change back to water but only
an hour per degree after that.
Or am I misinterpreting your comment?
Not to my knowledge. But when the temperature rise drops down below 15
(i.e. output air < ~84F) the subjective comfort factor of the forced air
system is such that I switch over to oil.
Thanks again for your thoughts. It really sounds like you design your
systems realistically, whereas my company specs them out for best case
scenarios. Don't they realize that specing the system out like that will
just leave people dissatisfied? I would gladly have installed a 5 or 6 ton
system if I had known that the true operational temperature would be more
like 30F at which point the output would be 4 tons! I guess they just want
the initial sale and don't care about long term customer satisfaction.
That's certainly not how I ran my business.
So you came up with less than 48,000 Btu/hr but did not include
infiltration? Infiltration could be 40% to 50% of the heating load.
Actually, I came up with something shy of 35kBTU/hr not including
infiltration. As you note, there could be a big slop factor in there. I
wouldn't be surprised if the true load at a design temperature of 5F was
60kBTU/h. I actually wanted a slightly undersized system, designed more
for around 15F so that I'd get the reduced consumption of a smaller
compressor for the majority of the run-time. However, I wasn't planning on
the BTU output dropping to ~50% of the rated output after a day or two of
use!
The sensors are down the bore holes? You know what the temperature is
50 or 100 feet down?
I had them put the sensors 50ft down the holes along with the loops so
that I'm getting a good feeling for ground temperature change due to the
loops, not seasonal surface temperature variations.
18F rise sounds like a heat source near or slightly below the freezing
point of water. What is the suction pressure now? What was the suction
pressure when you were getting the 23 degree rise?
You're good! the 18F rise is achieved when the loop field is right around
freezing.
I don't know the pressures. Was thinking of getting a set of gauges so
that I could measure them, but I don't want to screw with the system
without supervision of someone who is qualified.
It does sound like you are shy on the pipe in the ground, however, I am
wondering what assumed earth temperature is the design of these systems
based on. Just going back to my closed lopp indirect systems where you
based it on 30 or 32F temperature source from which to extract heat.
The manufacturer wouldn't provide me with the output curve. However, based
on their literature and what I gather from emails from their tech people,
the 4-ton rating is for ~50F ground temp. This matches well with my
experience - on the first day of operation, there was a 30F rise, and that
was when the ground was 51F.
Does the temperature keep dropping more and more? Is the temperature
source 'bottoming out'?
I've let it drop to ~30F. At that point, the output is so low (<15F temp
rise) that I turn it off for a day and run off oil until the ground
temperature recovers so I'm not blowing "cold" air. I'll try a long term
test to see if there what the point is at which the temperatures bottom
out.
Would it work on a reduced output after a while with a relatively
constant 18F output?. Maybe put in a hot water heating coil for your
back up, to provide the extra 10,000 Btu/hr you seem to need.
Is the return air ducted to the air handler or is it a central return.
Is return air up in an attic? The return ducts not sealed drawing in
some cold air?
Central return straight(goes thorough a 90 at the ceiling) into the
horizontal handler in the attic.
I've gone up and checked for input and output leaks and taped things up
carefully with metal tape. Probably should go around with mastic and seal
things up good. But at least for these measurements, I'm pretty sure that
I'm losing a minimal amount to return leaks.
All of my systems had lots of wet soil, and were selected based on a
temperature source near the freezing point of water. It is unfortunate
that you cannot take a advantage of the latent heat of water.
Actually, I think you still do with the DX to some extent. Since the wet
sand still has to go through the phase change, there's definitely a
flattening of the curve where you draw for a while at freezing then drops
below. Likewise, it takes 6 hours to phase change back to water but only
an hour per degree after that.
Or am I misinterpreting your comment?
It gets down to a COP of one? All the heat you are getting out of it is
equal to the electrical energy consumed to run it?
Not to my knowledge. But when the temperature rise drops down below 15
(i.e. output air < ~84F) the subjective comfort factor of the forced air
system is such that I switch over to oil.
Thanks again for your thoughts. It really sounds like you design your
systems realistically, whereas my company specs them out for best case
scenarios. Don't they realize that specing the system out like that will
just leave people dissatisfied? I would gladly have installed a 5 or 6 ton
system if I had known that the true operational temperature would be more
like 30F at which point the output would be 4 tons! I guess they just want
the initial sale and don't care about long term customer satisfaction.
That's certainly not how I ran my business.