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Re: UK RICS report says solar takes 208 years to repay...nonsense! Help needed!

E

Eeyore

geoff said:
Mary Fisher writes
So how did you even manage to spend the amount you claim to have SAVED
on hot water in the first place ?

This was what puzzled me too.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Andy said:
Eeyore said:

Look, it's the *cause* that matters. The facts are unimportant.

With respect to the 'green religion' that is so, so true. They don't want to be
encumbered by mere facts when belief will suffice.

The genuinely sad thing is that most allegedly 'green' ideas for alternative
energy actually have a net negative impact when compared with a more measured
scientific approach of equivalent cost. It's the classic story of the road to
hell being paved with good intentions.

Graham
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Eeyore said:
With respect to the 'green religion' that is so, so true. They don't want to be
encumbered by mere facts when belief will suffice.

The genuinely sad thing is that most allegedly 'green' ideas for alternative
energy actually have a net negative impact when compared with a more measured
scientific approach of equivalent cost. It's the classic story of the road to
hell being paved with good intentions.

Graham
Once I met a fat girl turned thin. And pretty gorgeous with it.

"Whats the secret?"

EAT LESS. came the response.

No fancy diets. Just eating less.

We burn fuel because we can afford to.

And its easier to burn it than do the efficient thing.

Make fuel more expensive, and we will find ways to save it.
 
H

Huge

We burn fuel because we can afford to.

And its easier to burn it than do the efficient thing.

Make fuel more expensive, and we will find ways to save it.

We don't have to "make" fuel more expensive. It will become more expensive all
by itself.
 
A

Andy Hall

That's like helping to promote sex; some things don't require promotion,
or claiming credit for doing so.

I understand that he has done that as well.......
 
E

Eeyore

Jim said:
Ann Coulter wrote a marvelous article some time ago about all the new
mfg plants, mining, plastics, and transport costs of the new green tech
being implemented. What a nightmare!

Talking of which, are you familiar with the 'fallout' from the EU's demand for
lead-free electronics

Apparently no-one considered the impact of the additional tin mining. Mostly tin
mining isn't in the EU as it happens so they simply exported some new
environmental problems. Oh, except there weren't actually any 'environmental
problems' from leaded solder to begin with ! Well, actually let's say that
no-one (in the Comission) considered very much actually other than making a
supposedly 'green' statement. It's accepted that 'lead-free' will reduce the
reliability of electronics and hence its useful lifetime (which is rather
un-green to my way of thinking) but apparently that's OK as long an illusion of
'green-ness' is achieved.

And the next cracking joke is this one !

As the demand for green 'carbon neutral' bio-fuel increases, palm oil production
in Asia is being increased. To do this they BURN OFF more of their rainforest !
Carbon-neutral my ass !

So, a green political whim in Europe results in wholesale rainforest
destruction. BRILLIANT !

Graham
 
A

Andy Hall

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:52:13 GMT someone who may be John Stumbles


He did not have sexual intercourse with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
Apparently it is something to do with making words imply something
they don't mean.

Just like greenwash then.....
 
E

Eeyore

David said:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:52:13 GMT someone who may be John Stumbles


He did not have sexual intercourse with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
Apparently it is something to do with making words imply something
they don't mean.

Maybe the question he was asked should have been phrased better ?

'Have sex' demands we have a universal definition of what 'having sex' is.

Graham
 
M

Mary Fisher

David Hansen said:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:07:57 -0500 someone who may be "Jim"


Hot water is not free in Iceland. The hot water doesn't get into
buildings by magic and the heat exchanger in the house is not free
either.

And much is lost between source and destiny.

Great steel pipes run in open 'ditches' at the side of roads, they carry the
hot water. Much heat is lost to the atmosphere. Enclosing the pipes of
filling the ditches is pointless in earthquake areas, even the metalled
roads have only a thin skin of blacktop. Everything has to be repaired very
frequently ...
As a result the quantity of heat used is measured. I do
believe it is relatively cheap though, especially compared to the
cost of importing oil or gas.

It is cheaper than ours (all our energy is probably higher than most places)
but the cost of labour, machinery and import of all raw materials has to be
paid for.

Mary
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
My opinion is that
(a) the evidence seems to be that it is happening

I agree.

(b) it's quite possible that humany activities are contributing to, if not
causing, it

Contributing to I'd accept the possibility of at least in some small part.

(c) the consequences could be disastrous for all humankind

Potential consequences in hundreds of years time. There is no immediate danger
and absolutely no reason or excuse for ill-considered panic action which may be
either futile or even counter-productive and will certainly damage western
economies further at a time when they are already endangered.

(d) we're socially advanced[1] enough to act responsibly and ameriorate
the effects of our actions

And how would that be ?

(e) we're just about technologically advanced[2] enough to counter the
effects of naturally-occuring processes (cf threat of asteroid strike
which we're (i) beginning to watch out for (ii) beginning to plan how to
avert).

Yet more alarmism to keep the public afraid and malleable.

proposal to prevent it basically calls for a return to the Stone Age,
i.e., the destruction of Western Civilization as we know it.

so, you are really saying that non-western civilisations == stone-age?

I'd say some 'greens' would at least like us to return at least to the era of
the mud hut and subsistence farming.

Graham
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Jim said:
To clear the air, I believe it is happening, slowly and inexorably, man
has precious little to do with it, can't stop it if he tried, and every
proposal to prevent it basically calls for a return to the Stone Age, i.e.,
the destruction of Western Civilization as we know it.

Well I am half with you there.

RAPIDLY and inexorably, and man has everything to do with it, and
nearly every proposal to cure it is as ill informed as those who claim
its not happening or its not our fault.
Until you can get India and China on board to do something about it, you
are wasting your breath, IMO. =IF= it really even is something man can
affect at all......

I can assure yu if e.g. the USA developed a safe fusion generator the
size of a bicycle and gave the technology to the world, the Chines would
take it up faster than you can say 'chow mein'
Meanwhile, the Martian Ice caps continue to shrink and the sun keeps
hurling CME's at us.
Sure. I am sure the suns is not static in output.

And the reduction in smog due to using catalysts in our cars has
actually made things slightly worse in terms of global warming.

To pin all your faith on one aspect of a complex situation is the mark
of a very simple man.

There are far too many of those on BOTH sides of the argument.
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Eeyore said:
I agree.



Contributing to I'd accept the possibility of at least in some small part.



Potential consequences in hundreds of years time. There is no immediate danger

Tell that to to N Orleans.
and absolutely no reason or excuse for ill-considered panic action which may be
either futile or even counter-productive and will certainly damage western
economies further at a time when they are already endangered.

That s fair comment: Governments in the West are largely composed of
marketing people, whose function is to sell the latest load of bullshit
to the electorate: faced with a complex and real crisis they are
singularly crap at coming up with imaginative and constructive solutions.

If not marketeers they are generally ideologues, who have pinned their
faith in 'principles' with a sort of religious zeal.


Anyone who HAS any real competence is to be found outside government,
where they can excercise their competence to make decent lives for
themselves and un businesses.
(d) we're socially advanced[1] enough to act responsibly and ameriorate
the effects of our actions

And how would that be ?
Any one of a million ways.

(e) we're just about technologically advanced[2] enough to counter the
effects of naturally-occuring processes (cf threat of asteroid strike
which we're (i) beginning to watch out for (ii) beginning to plan how to
avert).

Yet more alarmism to keep the public afraid and malleable.
Hah! Always the case. Just because bad men use a good cause to promote
their grasp on power, desn;t mena the cause itself is invalid.

You must learn the basic principals of logic.
so, you are really saying that non-western civilisations == stone-age?

You would be surprised at how sophisticated stone age culture was
actually, but be that as it may, there is a grain of truth in the assertion.
I'd say some 'greens' would at least like us to return at least to the era of
the mud hut and subsistence farming.

I totally agree. Most of the religious zealots in the green movement
know as little and care less about the actual processes that keep them
alive as the zealots in the 'denial' movement.

You must rapidly come to a realisation of the massive ignorance on ALL
sides before you can actually work out what is a constructive way forward.
 
E

Eeyore

The said:
Tell that to to N Orleans.

The flooding of New Orleans was due to defective flood defences.

It was pure LUCK that N.O. hadn't been struck by a 'Katrina' before and their luck
finally ran out. If you live in an area that's prone to hurricanes you're taking
risks. The poor workmanship finished the job.

Graham
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Eeyore said:
Talking of which, are you familiar with the 'fallout' from the EU's demand for
lead-free electronics

Apparently no-one considered the impact of the additional tin mining. Mostly tin
mining isn't in the EU as it happens so they simply exported some new
environmental problems. Oh, except there weren't actually any 'environmental
problems' from leaded solder to begin with ! Well, actually let's say that
no-one (in the Comission) considered very much actually other than making a
supposedly 'green' statement. It's accepted that 'lead-free' will reduce the
reliability of electronics and hence its useful lifetime (which is rather
un-green to my way of thinking) but apparently that's OK as long an illusion of
'green-ness' is achieved.

And the next cracking joke is this one !

As the demand for green 'carbon neutral' bio-fuel increases, palm oil production
in Asia is being increased. To do this they BURN OFF more of their rainforest !
Carbon-neutral my ass !

So, a green political whim in Europe results in wholesale rainforest
destruction. BRILLIANT !

Yup.

Governementst should refrain from working out how to save energy:
Instead they should concentrate o making CO2 production an extremely
expensive option worldwide, and let the market sort out what happens next.

If the tax on home fuel and gas and on industrial fuel was te same as
that on road fuel, no one would accept a house that was anything else
than insulated to the sort of standard you might see in central Canada.
 
E

Eeyore

The said:
I can assure yu if e.g. the USA developed a safe fusion generator the
size of a bicycle and gave the technology to the world, the Chines would
take it up faster than you can say 'chow mein'

I dare say they would but it's not going to happen is it. Science is a bitch like
that !

So how about some meaningful statements ?

Graham
 
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