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R

Rod Speed

Morten Reistad wrote
In real life, the Open Source alternatives generally read
the MS formats reasonably well, and access the data
inside them better than any divergent MS version.

Thats a lie with the lastest version from MS and the free readers in spades.
The issues are with formatting and making stuff look good.

Nope, not with the lastest version from MS and the free readers in spades.
I see large organisatons getting hard-earned lessons
about the storage of old documents these days.

No you dont. They are always readable.
 
P

Peter Flass

I remember the "Works" and "Orifice" incompatability. Strange both were M$.

That was probably intentional. If "works" could read and write orfice
documents, how many would buy the more expensive option?
 
P

Peter Flass

How much odder that even Microsoft software fails to correctly interpret
Word documents across versions.

Once again, not odd. It's their way of forcing everyone to upgrade.
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

Morten Reistad said:
In real life, the Open Source alternatives generally read the
MS formats reasonably well, and access the data inside them better
than any divergent MS version. The issues are with formatting
and making stuff look good.

I've used openoffice for Word-like work for a long time. It used to be
that when I was doing something moderately-official I'd reboot into
Windows and use genuine Office; a couple of years ago I was at a meeting
and noticed that no two Windows laptops around the table were rendering
a document I'd generated (in Word) identically.

That was the last time I generated a document in Word. I do
occasionally get horribly-miswritten documents (people doing things like
setting a figure to have text render under it, and then using lots of
newlines to reserve the space they really want) that won't render even
vaguely reasonably in anything but Windows, but that's not even common.
I see large organisatons getting hard-earned lessons about the
storage of old documents these days.

Yeah. NMSU made an attempt to define Word as its "official" document
format, but thankfully nobody paid any attention and most everything is
archived in PDF.
 
W

Walter Bushell

Joe Pfeiffer said:
Yeah. NMSU made an attempt to define Word as its "official" document
format, but thankfully nobody paid any attention and most everything is
archived in PDF.

NMSU = New Mexico State University ?
 
R

Roland Hutchinson

No. I don't think I've seen OOXML word before. Something tells me I
don't want to know after the past 6 days in that other newsgroup.

It's Microsoft's latest success at making darkness the new standard.

As governments started to wise up and require that documents be preserved
in documented file formats, Microsoft decided that rather than embracing
the already established international standard for office documents, they
would subvert the ISO standards process by packing various committees
with new representatives from various nations whom they had coerced or
bought off and ram through a "fast-track" approval of their own newly-
devised proprietary format as a standard.

Needless to say, the proposed standard was of Byzantine complexity,
unnecessarily long (6000 pages), and yet not long enough, since it was
full of "documentation" that amounted to things like like "Do this the
way Excel 97 does" without further elaboration, all of which made it
impossible for anyone else to implement.

Even the bought-and-paid-for committees couldn't quite bring themselves
approve it as it stood over a sea of (inadequately heard) objections from
third parties, so some revisions were required. Result: a "standard"
that nobody supports, not even Microsoft, but with a "transitional"
version that (what a coincidence!) matches Microsoft's current Office
formats.

The whole episode has left the ISO itself in a very bad light indeed,
with calls for revising the procedures that let this happen.

But don't take my word for it. Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization_of_Office_Open_XML

--
Roland Hutchinson

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
.... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
 
A

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

Roland Hutchinson said:
It's Microsoft's latest success at making darkness the new standard.

As governments started to wise up and require that documents be preserved
in documented file formats, Microsoft decided that rather than embracing
the already established international standard for office documents, they
would subvert the ISO standards process by packing various committees
with new representatives from various nations whom they had coerced or
bought off and ram through a "fast-track" approval of their own newly-
devised proprietary format as a standard.

Needless to say, the proposed standard was of Byzantine complexity,
unnecessarily long (6000 pages), and yet not long enough, since it was
full of "documentation" that amounted to things like like "Do this the
way Excel 97 does" without further elaboration, all of which made it
impossible for anyone else to implement.

Even the bought-and-paid-for committees couldn't quite bring themselves
approve it as it stood over a sea of (inadequately heard) objections from
third parties, so some revisions were required. Result: a "standard"
that nobody supports, not even Microsoft, but with a "transitional"
version that (what a coincidence!) matches Microsoft's current Office
formats.

The whole episode has left the ISO itself in a very bad light indeed,
with calls for revising the procedures that let this happen.

But don't take my word for it. Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization_of_Office_Open_XML

slightly similar but different tale about ISO requiring that work on
networking standards had to conform to OSI model. I was involved in
taking HSP (high-speed networking) protocol to x3s3.3 (US iso chartered
committee for networking standards). It was rejected because:

1) it went directly from transport/level four to LAN/MAC ... bypassing
network/leve three ... violating OSI model

2) it supporting "internetworking" ... a non-existant layer
in the OSI model (approx. between transport/networking)

3) it went directly to LAN/MAC interface ... a non-existant interface in
the OSI model (sitting approx. in the middle of layer 3 networking).

one of the other differences between ISO and IETF that has been
periodically highlighted is that IETF (aka internet standards) requires
that interoperable (different) implementations be demonstrated before
progressing in the standards process. ISO can pass standards for things
that have never been implemented (and potentially are impossible to
implement).

misc. past posts mentioning HSP, ISO, OSI, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp

note that fed. gov. in the late 80s was mandating that internet be
eliminated and replaced with ISO (aka GOSIP).
 
C

Charlie Gibbs

Yes, that was good thing the EU did.


Instead Justice "forced" MS to put their shit in schools.
MS lawyers must have been peeing their pants from laughing
so hard.

"Oh please, don't throw me in the briar patch!"
 
A

Andreas Eder

Hi Rod,

Rod> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote
Rod> All *nix. More mindless hair splitting.

What about QNX? Definitely not a *nix!

'Andreas
 
R

Rod Speed

Andreas Eder wrote
What about QNX? Definitely not a *nix!

More mindless hair splitting.

I dont bother to write everything so no one can split hairs, makes it too unreadable.
 
R

Roland Hutchinson

Roland said:
It's Microsoft's latest success at making darkness the new standard.
[...]
Fuckers. another example of very, very short-term thinking.

Yes, I thought you'd be pleased to know about it.

--
Roland Hutchinson

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
.... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
 
P

Peter Flass

Yea, well, they have had a history.


Fuckers. another example of very, very short-term thinking.

Is it a standard if no one uses it?

If there is no one to hear a tree falling in the forest, does it make a
sound?

Maybe a thud a it's chopped up for paper to produce copies of a 6000
page standard no one will read.
 
G

greenaum

Nothing like a COPY of CP/M.

It wasn't a copy, it was very much like it. The two aren't the same.
Why are you so hostile and bitter over something as unimportant as
computer software? You're still alive! There's still a chance you
might get laid before you die!

Smell the flowers! Urinate on trees! Stupid fucking pigs-arse trees.
Standing there all photosynthetically. Trees are shit and have the
intellect of 2 year olds.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"hey let's educate the brutes, we know we are superior to them anyway,
just through genetics, we are gentically superior to the working
class. They are a shaved monkey. If we educate them, they will be able
to read instructions, turn up on time and man the conveyor belts,
sorted." #
 
G

greenaum

I believe Microsoft's decision to build a mail client which would
instantly execute code from incoming email without any sort of user
interaction was, in fact, a pure innovation. No one had ever done it
before that I know of.

I think that was their integrating their word processor into it where
a text editor would have been fine. All about making it "simple",
where to do one specific thing, requires no thought. To do anything
slightly different requires calls to tech support and reinstalling the
operating system. Usually.
Basically, Microsoft single-handedly invented the botnet and the email
virus. Actually, I'm not quite sure that's fair. Technically, the GOOD
TIMES jokers *invented* the email virus, as an abstract concept, but
Microsoft was by far the first company to actually implement the necessary
infrastructure.

This is true! And yet the news blamed it entirely on the virus
writers! If you walked through South Central LA with $100 bills stuck
to your T-shirt, you'd get robbed. The robber's to blame but you
couldn't really say you were being sensible.

I used to, when a friend got a new PC, try de-install Norton etc as a
first move. Which isn't as easy as it looks, it's like a fucking
cancer! Spreads branches all over the damn place.

Now, I leave it alone. Unfortunately slowing your computer down to
less than half-speed, turns out to be better than the alternative, on
Windows, the Typhoid Mary of things that come on shiny disks.

I have to wonder why there isn't a Norton for Linux. No I don't. It's
because they designed in security from the start. Security's almost a
side-effect of the structure of the thing. In Windows security is
something you add on. As an application with a few dark tendrils into
mysterious unknowable bits of the workings.

Maybe it's a plan. Perhaps one day the botnets will evolve
consciousness, as they integrate more semantic processing to get
through anti-spam measures. The perfect spam-sneaker would speak
English like a person, to get through protection. Markov chains have
already been used. Perhaps it already has happened, and a bunch of
computers are Bill Gates's dark master.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"hey let's educate the brutes, we know we are superior to them anyway,
just through genetics, we are gentically superior to the working
class. They are a shaved monkey. If we educate them, they will be able
to read instructions, turn up on time and man the conveyor belts,
sorted." #
 
G

greenaum

Thats a lie, there was a lot more too the later Wins than anything Xerox had.

Yes but they'd had 20 years! Prior to that, there was a lot less.

And it's not "a lie". If it is indeed wrong, it's "a mistake", or "an
error". Or in fact "an opinion".
Switch your brain over from pejorative mode.
Nope, not with networking that even stupid users could use.

Trumpet Winsock wasn't much of a challenge to use, but it was still
the days when you had to know what you were doing. Back on good ol'
3.1, where one program going wrong totalled the system. Anyway there's
more to networking than it's user interface. In fact they're
completely separate.
Nothing like how Win networking ended up.

Windows networking evolved from people using Novell under DOS, and
Windows 3.1 would use those same DOS calls. It evolved from there, but
isn't particularly revolutionary. And if Novell still existed, they
might well have done it better.

Anyway now the entire Internet and most internal networks use IP
anyway. Finally, something wins because it's better. That, and the
idea of mass-to-mass communication turned out more popular than The
Microsoft Network, their version of Compuserve just as Compuserve was
breathing it's last.
Quite a bit of the detail was nothing like either.

Apart from renaming "Bookmarks", oh, and bastardising HTML (admittedly
started by Netscape for similar reasons), what?

How odd that Linux has used so much of the UI seen with Win.

That's because they want to attract new users, who can move over much
easily if things work the way they're used to. Not necessarily the
best way, and that itself's another plague, locking people into
specific UI mindsets. Until recently it had a very different
interface, evolved directly from Xerox.

Linux is still a bit too complicated. Not as much as the nightmare of
Slackware years gone by, where I was expected to work out the timing
in milliseconds of my monitor's electron gun, then edit it into a text
file, just to get a frigging picture. Which I never got to work.

The Linux problem is it's written by people who use it, and obviously
being the system programmers, know every inch of it. They need to get
a bunch of newbies and old ladies in to user-test it, then take some
notes. Obviously this doesn't fit in well with their model of not
being a corporate behemoth.

I once read that computers crash less the longer you've used them.
Basically software is "training" it's users to subconsciously avoid
the things that make it go wrong, in the case of more adept users,
they barely notice they're doing it. Simpler users keep a notepad.

I think this is related to Linux's main problem. They speak the lingo
too fluently, confusing it with English for normal people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"hey let's educate the brutes, we know we are superior to them anyway,
just through genetics, we are gentically superior to the working
class. They are a shaved monkey. If we educate them, they will be able
to read instructions, turn up on time and man the conveyor belts,
sorted." #
 
G

greenaum

Irrelevant to what did the work once 9x was booted.

It's true, that 95 only used DOS as a bootloader. But in 3.1, drivers
for sound, networking, file access and pretty much everything else,
were loaded in DOS, and used by Windows through the usual DOS
interrupts.

There was the late addition of "32-bit disk access", which stopped the
processor needing to flick in and out of Protected Mode dozens of
times a second, whenever you needed to access the disk.

The exceptions are perhaps just printers and video.

Talking of protected mode, what was the thing where the PC had some
sort of hack to reset the CPU to get back into Real Mode from
Protected, and back again? Sounds a pain in the arse to program and
keep everything consistent. Especially lots of times a second,
flicking the reset line at audio frequencies. Is it still present now,
or did Intel do something to the processors?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"hey let's educate the brutes, we know we are superior to them anyway,
just through genetics, we are gentically superior to the working
class. They are a shaved monkey. If we educate them, they will be able
to read instructions, turn up on time and man the conveyor belts,
sorted." #
 
A

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:47:12 GMT
Talking of protected mode, what was the thing where the PC had some
sort of hack to reset the CPU to get back into Real Mode from
Protected, and back again?

The 80286 could enter protected mode but not exit it, so the
keyboard controller was used to yank on it's reset pin to drop it out of
protected mode. The reset code checked some location fr a magic number to
distinguish a real power on reset from being dropped into real mode.
Sounds a pain in the arse to program and
keep everything consistent. Especially lots of times a second,
flicking the reset line at audio frequencies. Is it still present now,
or did Intel do something to the processors?

It was only the 80286 that had this problem.
 
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