Planned Obselescence....A Good Thing?

[Too_Many_Tools]

In terms of energy efficiency, many new electronics are more energy
gluttons than the old ones they replace.

Many electronics today have "always on" features where they
continuously draw current even when shut off. Couple this with others
who use wall transformers that continuously draw current. If one wishes
to reduce your energy bill, the first thing you need to do is remove
all these parasitic power users. The irony is those of us who are
serious about cutting our power bills seek out the older electronics
because they do not siphon power when not used.

It is true that some refrigerators, freezers and air conditioners are
more efficient but you also need to consider the depreciation cost of
your money when replacing the unit. The push to replace older
appliances is a push to sell new ones and for power companies not to
have to build new power plants....it is not about you saving money.

TMT

 

[Mike Hartigan]

No...Dilbert is a real life expose as to how companies are run
everyday.

At every company I have worked over the years, it has taken only hours
to note which individuals would be right at home in the Dilbert
cartoon.

Try watching "The Office" for a few weeks and notice how you soon the
same qualities at your workplace.

Indeed! I'm celebrating my 28th year in Corporate America this month
and I've seen virtually every character from 'The Office' in every
one of the dozen or so corporations I've worked in over those years.

Yes, even Dwight.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Indeed! I'm celebrating my 28th year in Corporate America this month
and I've seen virtually every character from 'The Office' in every
one of the dozen or so corporations I've worked in over those years.

Yes, even Dwight.

LOL...Especially Dwight...many times over.

TMT

 

[Rod Speed]

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have replaceable batteries?

Its harder to design something as compact as that with standard replaceable batterys.

ipods too.

You have to toss a $60-$120 device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Indeed.

 

[Rod Speed]

While I respect your opinion, it sounds like you are reading straight
from a textbook.

After decades in manufacturing, I can tell you that I have never seen
it work that way.

Reality is much different than the academic BS model....see Dilbert
for a real life reference.

Nothing like real life.

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when
engineering says it can't make a product based on
the imaginary price point...who then decides?

Its never that black and white either.

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

And did I mention that the CEO's bonus is tied to this product?

No it isnt.

In the end, a company will produce the cheapest junk that it can sell...

Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.

and it will work very hard to insure that the consumer
needs to buy another new one from them...

Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

and have to get any and all support from them.

Plenty avoid products like that.

It is all about separating the consumer from as
much of their money as painlessly as possible.

Its never that black and white either.

And that is called a conspiracy.

Wrong again, its you silly little 'planned obsolescence'
thats a conspiracy, if it was actually possible.

 

[Rod Speed]

Is that why my dishwasher died after 8 years and it was cheaper to
buy a new one than to repair the old? Our previous one lasted 22
years without hiccup. Was still running but the tub rusted out and
started leaking...

The technical term for that is 'pathetically inadequate sample'

 

[Terrence Briggs]

From dozens of relatives and friends who had major problems from 4 to 6
years. My stepmother replaced a GE washer and dryer pair that was less
than two years old because they were crap. Not much to go wrong? cheap
parts, poor designs and sloppy assembly work. Something is making noise
and you find a broken weld, sheared off bolt or bad bearing that SHOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

7 percent of dryers purchased between 2002 and 2006 needed repair,
according to a survey of Consumer Reports subscribers and their 109,000
dryers.

Not sure how much it would cost to repair a dryer, however. I've seen
good performers from reliable brands selling in the $450 range.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Terrence Briggs using a coin-op machine for now. Bachelors don't have
that much laundry
Peace to you...

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence is standard practice in
the industry.

TMT

 

[Rod Speed]

In terms of energy efficiency, many new electronics are
more energy gluttons than the old ones they replace.

And plenty aint too.

Many electronics today have "always on" features where
they continuously draw current even when shut off.

And plenty take bugger all power in that mode now.

Couple this with others who use wall
transformers that continuously draw current.

Plenty use switch mode plug packs now too.

If one wishes to reduce your energy bill, the first thing
you need to do is remove all these parasitic power users.

Wrong again. I use electric for all heating and cooling
and that completely swamps any effect those have.

The irony is those of us who are serious about cutting our power bills seek
out the older electronics because they do not siphon power when not used.

Anyone with a clue, which obviously counts you out, has enough of a
clue to continue to use the current products and chooses those which
use switch mode plug packs and have minimal standby power use.

It is true that some refrigerators, freezers
and air conditioners are more efficient

All of them are, actually.

but you also need to consider the depreciation
cost of your money when replacing the unit.

Yes, but that usually pays for itself quite quickly because the improvements
are significant, particularly with the dinosaur stuff from the 50s etc.

The push to replace older appliances is a push to sell new ones and for power
companies not to have to build new power plants....it is not about you saving money.

Wrong again. Its actually about doing both.

 

[Terrence Briggs]

I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore the
fairy tales of academic circles.

In a real company, engineers are under the thumb of accountants. They
are to make whatever cuts need to be made to make the desired profit
margin. Products are manufactured with intentional end lifes and
without any possiblity of repair...all required by MBAs who have
dictated what the product life and quality will be.

It is done to extract as much of your cash as possible.

TMT

And what if the consumer tires of your company's product and moves on
to another brand?

As this thread proves, people take anecdotal evidence of a product's
failure and avoid all of that company's products in the future.

Poster A refuses to by a GE dryer because a family member had to repair
hers in less than 5 years.

Poster B avoids anything made by Panasonic because a vaccuum broke in
less than a year.

It would seem to work AGAINST a company's bottom line to make products
that piss off your customers. They'll move on to another company.

Terrence Briggs
Peace to you...

 

[Rod Speed]

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

 

[dpb]

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

(Actually, the following is what I wrote earlier but the attribution
seems to have been snipped...)

....

While I respect your opinion, ...

Maybe so, but the rest of your post certainly doesn't make it sound
that way...

But, then again, it wasn't opinion but experience...

After decades in manufacturing, I can tell you that I have never seen
it work that way....

All I can say is you obviously were with the wrong organizations or
missed the signs of how things _really_ were...if the former is
actually the case, sorry.

In the 30-yrs mentioned previously, the only really bad blunder
enforced by a large corporation ethic I experienced was in one of the
aforementioned purchases of a successful startup by a behemoth. Their
plan was to integrate the new product line into an existing one with
its third-part sales reps and distributors rather than retain the
smaller company's dedicated sales force. This, unfortunately for both,
turned out to be a blunder for both.

But, it had nothing to to w/ MBA's deciding to cut or pare the bottom
line, it was just the business model that had been quite successful for
the new owner that they assumed would be successful for this product
line as well. Similar sorts of "not so black-and-white" scenarios are
almost surely in play as Rod points out in the situations you've
encountered as well.

 

[Mike Hartigan]

[...]

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

Isn't "what really happens" the same as "true"? What am I missing
here? Perhaps "true" is not accurate since they don't deal with
actual events. "True to life" is probably a better characterization
of 'The Office' and 'Dilbert'.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

Caricatures make reality entertaining. But they still reflect
reality. They wouldn't be funny if they didn't. 'The Office' is a
caricature - that's why it's funny on the particular level that it is
funny. I find that people who have never worked in an office are
less likely to 'get it'. 'Scrubs', on the other hand, is farce. You
don't have to work in a hospital to enjoy it.

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

No it isnt.

Typically, it is. Particularly when the target price is
'impossible'.

Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

Are you suggesting that Apple did not try to minimize the production
cost of the iPod? Perhaps you could explain why they are made in
China?

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.


Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

Actually, you're both wrong. The objective is to sell a product NOW.
Given the rate of change, particularly with technology products,
repeat sales are no longer an objective. Build them as cheaply as
possible TODAY. This year's bottom line is what the CEO's bonus is
based on.

Plenty avoid products like that.

That's pure BS. Consumers are motivated, first and foremost, by
purchase price. That's the reason so many products have a 'Made in
China' label. Apple and a few other American companies have
successfully marketed a perception of quality (actually, hipness),
but still import the products.

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Wrong again, its you silly little 'planned obsolescence'
thats a conspiracy, if it was actually possible.

Actually, it has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It's simply using
a business model that works.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree. No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium
Polymer battery pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into
a device. That would look after all the ipods and ipodlikes,as well as
all kinds of PDAs etc. On the ipod nano it's just the simplicity of
assembly that counts - it's crimped together, but not sealed, so if it
gets wet it's finished, and it IS possible to take it apart - but the
battery is soldered on, rather than plug-in, because it's
simpler/cheaper. Could still replace the battery - but they are NOT
AVAILABLE. And if you get the beggars wet, the battery goes south.

 

[b]

Everett M. Greene ha escrito:

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

....and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables to
the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000€ tv!
they should hang the designers of that one! Crimes against the
environment.
-B.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Nothing like real life.


Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

That is what caricatures have always been about.


Its never that black and white either.


It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

Not stupid. It IS the bean counters - and for the pricepoint DICTATED
it is impossible to make a QUALITY product with any kind of
consistency. So the customer becomes the QC department.

No it isnt.


Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

Nobody said inexpensive. Cheap ain't the same. It is CHEAP OVERPRICED
JUNK.

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.


Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

No, it is an EXCELLENT way, because you add more "Gee Whizz" and
"gotta have it" in the next iteration (which comes out JUST BEFORE the
majority of the last version come off warranty). This way, a large
percentage of owners are salivating over the new product, and either
throw the cheap one in a corner to buy the new one, or, more often,
just figure when the old one fails it's a good excuse to buy the new
one.
Lots of us want to keep using the simple old unit - and cannot because
it fails.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

That would look after all the ipods and
ipodlikes, as well as all kinds of PDAs etc.

There's a reason cellphones dont all use the same standard battery.

On the ipod nano it's just the simplicity of assembly that counts
Nope.

- it's crimped together, but not sealed, so if it gets wet it's finished,

It would be anyway even if the case was sealed, just like with cellphones.

and it IS possible to take it apart - but the battery is soldered
on, rather than plug-in, because it's simpler/cheaper.

Its obviously still possible to replace the battery.

Could still replace the battery - but they are NOT AVAILABLE.

NOT YET.

And if you get the beggars wet, the battery goes south.

Same with cellphones. There is no evil conspiracy,
its about producing a cost effective product.

 

[Rod Speed]

Everett M. Greene wrote

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables
to the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000? tv!

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

they should hang the designers of that one!
Crimes against the environment.

It would **** the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed [email protected] wrote

Isn't "what really happens" the same as "true"?

Nope, Dilbert ain 'what really happens'

What am I missing here?

The exaggeration, stupid.

Perhaps "true" is not accurate since they don't deal with actual events.

Or because its exaggerated.

"True to life" is probably a better characterization of 'The Office' and 'Dilbert'.

Nope, its an exaggeration of reality.

Caricatures make reality entertaining.

So can Dilbert and The Office.

But they still reflect reality.

Nope, they exaggerate reality.

They wouldn't be funny if they didn't. 'The Office' is a caricature
- that's why it's funny on the particular level that it is funny.

And its not true to life, its a caricature/exaggeration of life.

I find that people who have never worked
in an office are less likely to 'get it'.

Sure, but thats not surprising.

'Scrubs', on the other hand, is farce. You
don't have to work in a hospital to enjoy it.

I dont work in a hospital and dont enjoy it either.

Its slapstick, nothing like reality.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

Typically, it is.
Nope.

Particularly when the target price is 'impossible'.
Fantasy.

Are you suggesting that Apple did not try
to minimize the production cost of the iPod?

Nope, that its clearly nothing like the cheapest junk that they can sell.

Perhaps you could explain why they are made in China?

Irrelevant to whether its actually the cheapest junk that they can sell.

Actually, you're both wrong.

Nope. He is.

The objective is to sell a product NOW.

Its much more complicated than that too.

Given the rate of change, particularly with technology
products, repeat sales are no longer an objective.

Bullshit, most obviously with Apple.

Build them as cheaply as possible TODAY.

Have fun explaining the ipods and countless
other products that are nothing like that.

This year's bottom line is what the CEO's bonus is based on.

Nothing like the original claim about the CEO's bonus.

And it aint necessarily true of quite a few CEOs either.

That's pure BS.

Nope. Even you should be able to find countless
examples of individuals doing that using groups.google.

Consumers are motivated, first and foremost, by purchase price.

Not all of them are. If they were, you wouldnt see so many ipods sold.

Or those stupid expensive brand name shoes in spades.

Or SUVs either.

That's the reason so many products have a 'Made in China' label.

Nope, the real reason is because it costs less to manufacture there.

Apple and a few other American companies have
successfully marketed a perception of quality
(actually, hipness), but still import the products.

Irrelevant to that silly claim that consumers buy on price.

If they did, they wouldnt be buying ipods.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

Actually, it has nothing to do with a conspiracy.
It's simply using a business model that works.

It isnt even possible to use planned obsolescence as a business model,
essentially because it isnt possible to design a product to fail just after
the warranty has expired, even if some operation was actually that stupid.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

In terms of energy efficiency, many new electronics are more energy
gluttons than the old ones they replace.

Bullcrap.The devices themselves are more power efficient (draw less
power to do the same job)and switch mode power warts draw VERY LITTLE
power. The power pack for my portable DVD shows no measurable draw on
my UPM E100 energy meter. Charging the battery, it draws about .02amp,
and running about .09 to .10 amps. The switchmode supply on my USP hub
draws .01 amp idle and the port draws another .03 for a total of .04
amps. My 20 year old TV draws.06 amps turned off, my daughter's new
one all of .02 and her 5 year old VCR draws .03. The old "instant on"
tube TV I used to have was over 20 watts when turned off, and it was
made 35? years ago. Not to mention it drew a WHOLE LOT more when
running than anything made today.

Many electronics today have "always on" features where they
continuously draw current even when shut off. Couple this with others
who use wall transformers that continuously draw current.

Cheap crap uses transformers. Cheap transformers dissipate about 4
watts. Virtually no QUALITY stuff uses transformers any more.
New Switchers dissipate significantly less than 1 watt idle. (my DVD)
Old switchers dissipate about 4 watts (old laptop) and 3 watts (cheap
chinese laptop supply and 2 watts for a better chinese laptop supply.

If one wishes
to reduce your energy bill, the first thing you need to do is remove
all these parasitic power users. The irony is those of us who are
serious about cutting our power bills seek out the older electronics
because they do not siphon power when not used.

Depends how much you use them. If they are used a lot, buy new quality
stuff - it uses a lot less power when in use. If it sits most of the
time, use the old stuff or disconnect when not in use.

It is true that some refrigerators, freezers and air conditioners are
more efficient but you also need to consider the depreciation cost of
your money when replacing the unit.

The difference in operating cost between a 25 year old fridge and a
new one will pay the depreciation cost and the financing charges at
today's rates.

The push to replace older
appliances is a push to sell new ones and for power companies not to
have to build new power plants....it is not about you saving money.

If power companies don't need to build new power plants, it saves YOU
money.

TMT

And I drive older vehicles and fix them myself. I don't put on a lot
of miles. If I did, I'd buy a newer more efficient vehicle - but for
me, at this point, it would never get close to paying for itself.

As for appliances, when I can no longer fix what I have, I buy the
best quality I can get for my money - knowing I will likely spend more
time and money fixing it over it's (shorter) lifespan than I spent on
what it is replacing, but less than if I buy the cheapest I can find.

My water heater is about 20 years old now. My friend is on his 4th in
15 years. Mine cost almost twice what his did.