B
blueman
doug said:Not really
I understand completely. Reverse engineering a protocol and simulating
it in Perl would be way beyond your pay grade
doug said:Not really
Robert Macy said:...snip...Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are supposed
to do according to their training.
Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically superior
to a crimp connection.
I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps. I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].
Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.
For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.
tourman said:...snip...
Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are supposed
to do according to their training.Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically superior
to a crimp connection.
...snip...
I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Â Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps. Â I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].
Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Â Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Â Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.
For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Â Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.
RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I don't
ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...)
A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the connection.
With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
question, far too many....
tourman said:RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education.
You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the
people in our trade.
It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process.
I don't know anything about this company you speak of;
however, if in fact they are soldering every connection, they are
widely wasting their time for little or no benefit. Plus in some of
the areas where we typically have to work, a hot soldering iron would
be a fire hazard in the extreme. Why would any company risk setting a
fire for no real gain. It sounds to me as if the management of this
company are stuck somewhere in the 1960's....
Good for you. I have far more degrees than that, though I would be thePS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees.
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.
I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....
tourman said:RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education.
You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the
people in our trade.
It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process.
I don't know anything about this company you speak of;
however, if in fact they are soldering every connection, they are
widely wasting their time for little or no benefit. Plus in some of
the areas where we typically have to work, a hot soldering iron would
be a fire hazard in the extreme. Why would any company risk setting a
fire for no real gain. It sounds to me as if the management of this
company are stuck somewhere in the 1960's....
Good for you. I have far more degrees than that, though I would be thePS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees.
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.
I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....
tourman said:RHC: Click on your profile "blueman" in one of your posts....I'm no
internet expert but what's with the "900,000 plus posts
blueman said:So, why pay 4 times as much????
blueman said:I understand completely. Reverse engineering a protocol and simulating
it in Perl would be way beyond your pay grade
Robert Macy said:...snip...Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught
to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation
were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections --
they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did
was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are
supposed
to do according to their training.Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near
the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection
should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are
connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are
still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a
'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you
are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold
solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a
properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical
twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job
crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert
the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically
superior
to a crimp connection....snip...
I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps. I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I
don't
ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...)A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the
connection.
With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
question, far too many....Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and
wrapped
in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it
is
the mark of a high quality installation.Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
connector.
RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education. You
seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the people
in our trade. It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process. I don't know anything
about this company you speak of; however, if in fact they are
soldering every connection, they are widely wasting their time for
little or no benefit. Plus in some of the areas where we typically
have to work, a hot soldering iron would be a fire hazard in the
extreme. Why would any company risk setting a fire for no real gain.
It sounds to me as if the management of this company are stuck
somewhere in the 1960's....
PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees. Most
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.
I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....
I STILL stand behind my claim that crimp [pressure gas seal]
connection is more reliable than a solder connection.
Based upon the following three items:
1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.
2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
that I worked with insisted it was so.
3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice, and believe me
I KNOW how to solder well. Clean copper wire, twisted 5 to 7 times,
[actually duplicating a pressure contact - not counting on the solder
for connection, rather counting on the copper to copper connection
with solder merely 'holding' the connection together] flux soldered
with fresh solder and beautiful wicking, and no crystalization visible
using 10X examination. Solder ALWAYS crystalizes as it cools, nature
of the process, but should not be allowed to cool with an excessive
gradient across the junction.
There must be some objective reliability data regarding this subject.
Any Environmental Test Labs out there that's done these tests and will
share results?
Robert said:Based upon the following three items:
1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.
2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
that I worked with insisted it was so.
3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice,
Frank said:Here on the "wet coast", we used to solder all our connections until GRI
came up with 3/8 mini-contacts with terminals. No more messing with
off-set in-line splices or trying to wrestle beanies into or out of a
3/8" hole.