need spring-energy-storage mechanism

[default]

For all we know, he may be making a mountain out of a molehill.

More likely the converse.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

More likely the converse.

That will take a LOT of moles! ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote: [...]

A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
(still only a fraction of that of gasoline).

Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?

Where you someone buy a 2 pound flywheel ?

donald

It's a standard physics formula.
Actual calc' from a 1910 motor car design hanbook. Also
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/2001/ph162/l8.html is one of the few sites
that bothers to do some sums.
There's also a number of really interesting research project sites
investigating details of materials, containments, bearings, hoop
stresses etc.
First interest in these things came from a 2 (1 ton each!), flywheel,
experimental, monorail railway system in a 1912 science book (UK).

 

[John S.]

...
I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
no further response.

]

John is disturbed, because the poser of the question has not
responded. This response in newsgroups is not in fact unusual.

It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
"Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
from the helper, to be in good form.

Yes, I realize that some newsgroup participants behave as though they
were born in a barn. Thank yous are not being looked for, but if
someone poses a technical question, I think that most of us living in
civil society would expect some response about whether the information
was useful.

Apparently expectations of behaviour and common courtesy are somewhat
lower Altus OK that the rest of the US.

But it is probably better to act as though one responds to requests
for input simply for one's own amusement or education.

If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters
message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
will generate some responses. Looking for attention as many trolls
are. That he failed to recognize any of the posts only served to
affirm that initial conclusion.

 

[Robert Adsett]

Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?

And what's a man-hour of energy?

Robert

 

[jim]

...
I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
no further response.

]

John is disturbed, because the poser of the question has not
responded. This response in newsgroups is not in fact unusual.

It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
"Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
from the helper, to be in good form.

But it is probably better to act as though one responds to requests
for input simply for one's own amusement or education.

Ha ha ha, one's own amusement and education? You mean there might not be
a mountain? No profitable sale of a commodity if only the transportation
can be worked out? Wait I suppose that also means the OP won't be making
a million dollars and coming back to share the wealth with all those who
provided assistance? Man what a disappointment.

-jim

 

[[email protected]]

[...]

And what's a man-hour of energy?

Robert

A more user friendly version of 0.05kWh

 

[[email protected]]

If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters

message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
will generate some responses.

that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
niche.


I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
geo setting. Hey, if a funicular or a tramway was indicated, there are
pro's out there who will build them for me. And not difficult to find,
either.

There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

. That he failed to recognize any of the posts only served to
affirm that initial conclusion.

I thought I was being polite, in not consuming bandwidth and
archive resources, to respond to not-on-point nonsense.


I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
by picking nickels up off the streets.

 

[[email protected]]

Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to

assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
- just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.

very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.

only slightly valuable cargo,

well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.

wouldn't demand a high
tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles,

is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
you sign the check.

He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?

If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
storage mechanism?

(and wants the location to remain a secret)

Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.


I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
of the time.


Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

 

[[email protected]]

It also has to run on frictionless bearings and in a vacuum to actually

store the energy.

that's apparently NOT a bridge too far:

http://www.pcorp.com.au/index.php?o...3&Itemid=132&gclid=COufjN28v4wCFQkBYAod6U2mxA

 

[brian a m stuckless]

$$ Where is spring energy POTENTiAL "stored"?
$$ (Dances with dimwits)

very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.


well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.


is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
you sign the check.


If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
storage mechanism?


Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.

I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
of the time.

Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

$$ Where is spring or fly-wheel POTENTiAL energy "stored"?

Subject: Re: is spacetime curvature the source of inertia?
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:51:53 -0230
From: brian a m stuckless <[email protected]>
Newsgroups:
sci.physics.relativity, sci.philosophy.tech, sci.math,
sci.astro, bit.org
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

ENERGY = FORCE*meter || iNERTiA = FORCE*meter*(sec)^2
||
iNERTiA || = ENERGY*(sec)^2
= ------- = Watt*sec ||
(sec)^2 || = Watt*(sec)^3
= Volt*Amp*sec ||
= Weber*Amp || = Volt*Amp*(sec)^3
(Volt)^2*sec ||
= ------------ || = Weber*CHARGE*sec
Weber*Volt Ohm ||
= --------- || = Volt*CHARGE*(sec)^2
Ohm ||
= Volt*CHARGE || = (CHARGE)^2*Ohm*sec
||
= LiNEAR momentum*Velocity || = (LiNEAR momentum pL)*rA*sec
||
LiNEAR momentum*radius rA || = ANGULAR momentum pA*sec
= ------------------------- ||
second || = ( Linear 'MOMENT' )*rA
||
[ The Angular 'MOMENT' ] || = [ The Angular 'MOMENT' ]
= ------------------------ ||
(second)^2 || = iNERTiA -> kilogram*meter^2.

$$ [Where spring, fly-wheel and bullet potential energy is "stored"].
$$ [Re: is spacetime curvature spring energy the source of inertia?].

 

[St. John Smythe]

The thing I don't think I recall hearing is weight or volume per load.
Your viable options could change quite a bit with variations in those.

Anyhow, since you had initially proposed a bicycle, I'd say you'd be
hard-pressed to improve on the cost-efficiency of a moped. Taking the
Eaton/Peterbilt approach, if you were able to drive your per-trip
operational cost down to $.05 by virtue of, say, $100K in development
costs, it would take a long time to amortize that start-up cost.

Do you have a business plan so you know your break-even point?

 

[me]

snip

I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
by picking nickels up off the streets.

Here's a freebie for you. If your commodity is higher up and you want to transpoert it down you already
have stored energy for "free". Throw/roll/slide it downhill....

 

[[email protected]]

that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
niche.

You could have answered 95% of the questions without doing that.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
geo setting.

Spring storage couldn't possibly work either. The energy density
isn't good enough, and if it was you would have a potential bomb.
You are an idiot who is so narrow minded that you won't accept any
solution other than the one you half-baked yourself.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
by picking nickels up off the streets.

Other people get good answers because they ask good questions.
You wrote a question that sucks and then ignore all requests for
clarification. You REALLY need to read the following!

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
http://www.montebello.k12.ca.us/Resources/Roadmap/map07.html

In the killfile you go:

*PLONK*

 

[[email protected]]

brian a m stuckless wrote:

(snip)

Brian, please read this:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/dont.html

I hope this helps.

 

[default]

very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.

Well, in all honesty, I wasn't entirely ruling out springs - just not
the way you envision them, and not for climbing mountains.

My own pet idea - take a "gas spring" - those things used to hold the
50 pound hatch on hatch back cars up? They are light in weight and
for a relatively small travel distance of the piston, have enormous
weight holding potential. Some with hundreds of pounds. Now take
that and mate it to something like a brake drum on a bicycle (bicycles
don't use brake drums but could). The rider actuates the brake and
the tendency is for the drum to want to grab the wheel and rotate
itself, shoes and all. Now that small movement (of say 4-6") could be
used to compress the spring. Then, when the brake is released, the
shoes hold the drum for a little while as the compressed spring
transfers its energy back to the wheel to get you started rolling
again. (versus having to stand on the pedals - just assists in stop
and go conditions and just to kick it into motion). All mechanical
and it would take learning some new habits to use - but could be
really useful in the city.

well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.




is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
you sign the check.

Yeah it would be high tech for me. A practical, lightweight enough
for a bicycle, with human power? A dump truck I can see hauling
around a high pressure accumulator or reservoir - a bicycle less so.

A bicycle rider can only supply about 100 watts of power to the pedals
for a short period of time 50-75 may be more reasonable. Now how does
one capture and store the small amount of energy, converting from
torsion to pressure or amp hours and back again and do it in something
that has to remain very light if a human is expected to provide the
energy input? I'm sure it will be done . . . someday. When it comes
to bicycles, weight is everything.

If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
storage mechanism?

Well, there are always more than one way to solve any problem. With
all the facts in evidence, other solutions may seem obvious. By
limiting the information, you narrow the scope of solutions. The
desired spring storage mechanism was a non-starter from the get-go.

Some clever people get on these newsgroups and solving problems in
novel and neat synergistic ways is often rewarding - we all learn
something.

Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.

But it wouldn't hurt to describe the terrain/topography in detail.
Type of road, type of grades encountered, length, other factors like
private or public access. Condition of valuable mineral or plant -
liquid, solid, density, or other factors like friability, solubility
that may be important to preserving its usefulness. For instance if
it is nearly liquid or easily soluble and miscible in water it may be
dissolved and piped down and recovered - depending on distance and
cost of plumbing etc..

Always look for the easy solution first - then embellish it if
warranted.

I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
of the time.

I get the feeling that silver isn't at issue. Here in the US they do
or did a lot of mining for copper up near Idaho and Montana. Zinc,
lead, and silver are some of the byproducts. I camped along the "Lead
Creek" near DeBorgia Montana and learned all about silver, or more
correctly, copper. I was bumming around on a motorcycle and getting a
real education.

Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

I'm not "shocked." The secrecy and lack of information and hit and
run style suggested someone trolling Usenet, not an actual real world
application for design.

 

[Trevor Jones]

is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
you sign the check.

The reality you seem unwilling to accept, is that physics does not
scale worth a shit.

Recovering a small amount of energy from slowing down a multi ton load
in a dump truck costs a fraction of the dump trucks weight and overall
cost. The dump trucks also have a big motherin' diesel engine to haul
their load (and the regen braking system) back up to speed. I have no
doubt that the payback period on the regen braking system on a dump
truck is measured in years, too.

Put a system on a bicycle, and you will not ever get back the energy
it takes to haul it around, nor will you recover the costs of purchase
or development.

I get the distinct feeling that you are a dreamer that is unwilling to
accept that there are a few real flaws in your whole line of investigation.

Throw money at Eaton. They will laugh all the way to the bank with it.
Get a granny gear on your bike too. You are going to need it to haul the
dead weight back up the hill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

 

[Edward Green]

That seems commercially feasible for the logging
industry but only a few bicycle sheds will accomodate
a blimp without knocking out a few walls.

What are the economics of taking a blimp up and down a mountain?

Now that I think of this, the question seems moot: if the economic
good is at the top of a mountain, it should be easy to get it down:
one only needs a method to control free-fall. If useable amounts of
power can be harvested, that's a side benefit. There's no energy cost
in lowering your commodity, the economics is in the start up and
maintenance costs.

 

[Edward Green]

You'd lose, on both counts. I'd anaesthetize the cat.

I've injected unanaesthetized cats with fluids (vet orders, not animal
cruelty).

Same method of holding down cat in sink, with helper, could no doubt
be applied to toast application.

 

[John S.]

that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
niche.

You are concerened about somone coming in on a low volume, low value
product that has significant transportation costs from the top of a
mointain? Assuming your description is anywhere close to reality, I
can only assume you are hallucinating. From your description you
would have to pay someone to horn in. Unless of course you are really
talking about trying to transport product from your marijuna or poppy
patch.

I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
geo setting. Hey, if a funicular or a tramway was indicated, there are
pro's out there who will build them for me. And not difficult to find,
either.

Anyone with a half an ounce of mechanical sense would realize that a
spring would not contain nearly enough energy to make it worthwhile.
Especially considering the substantial cosrts involved. And you know
that.

There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

That pretty much is the information you originally supplied.

I thought I was being polite, in not consuming bandwidth and
archive resources, to respond to not-on-point nonsense.

Bullshit. Your posts make me think you just crank out half-baked posts
in the hopes of attracting attention.

I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large.

Are you writing for self appreciation?

But as
Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
by picking nickels up off the streets.

And I'm sure Warren Buffet has thoughts about adults who continue to
look for the adolescent
pleasure of being the center of attention no matter how it is
obtained.