Maker Pro
Maker Pro

My trailer's electrical box design

R

Richard Henry

Wheres Lassie when you need him?

I guess Lassie really was a Scots girl, else the dialogue would have
gone:

Lassie: Woof! Woof! Woof!

Timmy's Dad: What's that Lassie?

Lassie: Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof-woof!

Timmy's Dad: Timmy fell down the good? What does that mean?
 
J

jasen

I think that I received some meaningful comments from him in the
past. Anyways, this thread has veered a little away from where I
wanted it to go, specifically I would like to hear if these LEDs are a
sensible idea or not.

over here it's illegal to have forwards-facing red lights
(maybe go with blue, or amber instead?)

by reading the manufacturers data sheet you can tell what current is
acceptable by the led.

for a 12V system if you want more brightness put more LEDs in series,

painting the back of the led and the front of panel it's fitted to
black helps with visibility.
I left them powered with 15V overnight, so far
they have not burned out

I ran an ordinary 20ma red LED off a 5v supply once, with no series
resistor, just to see what would happen. It passed about 100ma and
lasted more than an hour.
 
I

Ignoramus3585

Do you really need them to run at ~ 25 mA ?
I assume these are standard 30 mA @ 25C LEDs.
In my view, it would be better to run them
a lot lower. I'm thinking of times when the
sun is beating down and it is really hot.
Running them at a lower current might be
beneficial.

I doubt they will burn out in the amount of time I tow the
trailer. They need to be visible in my rearview mirror. I did measure
the current, it is indeed 25 mA, as you stated.

i
 
I

Ignoramus3585

Iggy has engaged in some truly ambitious
projects, far more complex than this.
I'd be willing to bet his trailer will be
safer than *many* when he is done.

Thanks. Wiring up trailer lights is not complicated and does not allow
for any mistakes (they either work right, or they do not and it is
obvious).

What I want, is, first, to have a nice box with terminals, second, an
ability to add a trailer mounted battery that can be charged in
different ways, and third, LED lights that show me status of brakes
and trailer, so that I can double check that everything is working,
from my truck's cabin, using a rearview mirror.

i
 
R

Rich Grise

I think that I received some meaningful comments from him in the
past. Anyways, this thread has veered a little away from where I
wanted it to go, specifically I would like to hear if these LEDs are a
sensible idea or not. I left them powered with 15V overnight, so far
they have not burned out, so perhaps 500 ohm resistors are
acceptable. I will keep them on until tonight. The series resistors
are hot, but still they can be touched without getting my fingers
burned.

The "plugged in" idea is a good one, but I wouldn't use LEDs to
indicate "brake light powered", because it doesn't tell you about
the condition of the actual brake light bulb itself. A little current
sensor in one of the leads, and a comparator, and drive the LEDs with
that. :)

Or mount little reflectors so you can see the actual brake lights. :)

Good Luck!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

English is not my native language, so do not consider me a standard of
American English!

Would you mind my asking what your first language is?

Just curious, is all. :)

Thanks,
Rich
 
I

Ignoramus3585

The "plugged in" idea is a good one, but I wouldn't use LEDs to
indicate "brake light powered", because it doesn't tell you about
the condition of the actual brake light bulb itself. A little current
sensor in one of the leads, and a comparator, and drive the LEDs with
that. :)

This is for brakes, not for brake lights. My trailer's axle has
electric brakes.

i
 
M

mpm

Fine. May I make a few suggestions then?

1- Ring terminals would provide more security than spade terminals.
Especially, if the box is going to be vibrating all over the roadways.

2 - Soldering the crimp terminals is another good idea. I can't tell
if you've done that from the images or not. It does not appear so.

3 - The barrier strip can probably be double-nutted, (or nylon captive
nut) so it won't swing in the breeze should one side vibrate loose.
At least you could dab it with Lock-tite.

4 - I can't quite read the NEMA nameplate, but with this many holes in
it, that rating is completely irrelevant anyway. Still, the inside
appears pretty rusty. Perhaps it was out of service for a long
time.? Or maybe it's not as airtight as you image?. (Think rust,
oxidation, poor conductivity, ice pooling, etc...)

5 - I see you have cord protection, but no strain relief.
Interesting choice.

Now, let's get to the electroncis:

6 - Many automobiles use a system that causes a more rapid flashing if
one of the filaments burns out. Do you plan on implementing such a
system with the LED's or some other POSITIVE indication of a
malfunction?

7 - The LED soldering job leaves a little to be desired (if the view
is the final version, that is..). You have simply lapped the resistor
and LED leads side-by-side and soldered them. This should be a FIRM
mechanical connection first, THEN a solid soldering job. (Again,
think vibration!!.)

8 - The resistors appear to be simple carbon film resistors. Probably
OK, but for another penny you could get flameproof resistors. (Always
a nice consideration around fuel.)

9 - I cannot see the rating on the 110V cable. It "looks" like
standard "SO-type" cord, which of course is an indoor cable and not
rated for outdoor or UV exposures. Of course, that's an NEC rating,
not DOT, or whatever Standard might be applicable here(?).

10 - Will the transformer be fused, and will the 110V ground connect
to the vehicle's 12V ground? In other words, is the isolation of these
two systems totally dependent on the HiPot testing of whatever
transformer you are using, and do you know what that rating actually
is? I don't even want to think about the condition of a hot chasis
and a weak ground, or a loop if the trailer happens to touch the
building structure while charging under fault conditions. Or, if the
trailer is somehow grounded to earth and a fault doesn't clear on the
charging circuit branch breaker. (Or, if the neutral to the building
lifts, etc...)

11 - Speaking of DOT, who cares if the bulbs & fixtures are DOT
rated? Everyone here knows the DOT has never laid eyes on this
thing..., so it's totally unfair to intimate their seal of approval.
At least on a systems-level.

12 - The idea of dual use (i.e., electronics & glove box / storage) is
a novel idea. Ideally, this would have separate access doors or
panels, etc... At the very least, there should be a non-conductive
cover (and appropriate warning signage) on all exposed 110V. As well
as a rigid divider of some sort between the compartments. Possibly
something fire rated, depending on what you might want to store inside
this thing. Which brings up another issue:

13 - Have you considered the possibility of liquids being stored and
what might happen if they leak on the unprotected barrier strip
terminal block? Like a lead-acid battery or...[use imagination]

Anyway, I think you get the point.
I completely agree that wiring trailer lights is trivial.
And probably well within the skill set of everyone here.

My point is:

I've seen enough injury accidents, fatalities and "near-misses" to
CONVINCE me that things are NEVER as trivial as they first seem to
be. And further, that when one of these "gotcha's" does bite you in
the _ _ _, you can always go back and figure out what you could have
done differently to better protect life and property.

I've said my peace. You can agree or disagree.
And I'm truly not looking for royalties on any of my above
suggestions! (Feel free to incorporate!.)

Oh, one more thing.
When you do mount the transformer, you might want to use a shock-
absorbing mount (rubber bumbers, pads, etc...) Those things are
pretty dense. You wouldn't want it flying around inside the cabinet
when you hit a pothole (or a deer, elk moose, etc...)

Oh, and of course, the forces involved in an accident are tremendous.
So the obligatory statement about making certain it's affixed
permanently....

Sorry. One more thing. You mentioned there would be a battery in the
trailer box too.
If this is a standard lead-acid battery, the charging space needs to
be ventillated.
(Was this going in the cabinet too?) And of course, the charge would
need to be regulated somehow to prevent overcharging, loss of
electrolyte, release of explosive gases, etc... But I'm sure you knew
all that.

Sorry. One more: What if you have to jump start the truck with the
trailer connected?
Is this a problem? (From a harness current-carrying point of view.)

Good luck with the project!!

-mpm
 
I

Ignoramus3585

[5~OBOn 5 Feb 2007 20:55:44 -0800 said:
Fine. May I make a few suggestions then?

Thanks, great points, see my replies.
1- Ring terminals would provide more security than spade terminals.
Especially, if the box is going to be vibrating all over the roadways.

good point.
2 - Soldering the crimp terminals is another good idea. I can't tell
if you've done that from the images or not. It does not appear so.

I believe that proper crimps done with proper tools, do not need
soldering.
3 - The barrier strip can probably be double-nutted, (or nylon captive
nut) so it won't swing in the breeze should one side vibrate loose.
At least you could dab it with Lock-tite.

There are lock washers under the nuts.
4 - I can't quite read the NEMA nameplate, but with this many holes in
it, that rating is completely irrelevant anyway. Still, the inside
appears pretty rusty. Perhaps it was out of service for a long
time.? Or maybe it's not as airtight as you image?. (Think rust,
oxidation, poor conductivity, ice pooling, etc...)

No, it was not at all rusty, it was very dirty but not rusty. Lots of
oil grime, most of which I took out.
5 - I see you have cord protection, but no strain relief.
Interesting choice.

The 110v cable is going to be almost completely inside the box, with
only a couple of inches outside.

The cables going to truck will be tied to the frame, they will not
flop around.
Now, let's get to the electroncis:

6 - Many automobiles use a system that causes a more rapid flashing if
one of the filaments burns out. Do you plan on implementing such a
system with the LED's or some other POSITIVE indication of a
malfunction?

My LEDs indicate status of electric brakes, not brake lights.
7 - The LED soldering job leaves a little to be desired (if the view
is the final version, that is..). You have simply lapped the resistor
and LED leads side-by-side and soldered them. This should be a FIRM
mechanical connection first, THEN a solid soldering job. (Again,
think vibration!!.)

Yes. That was not a final version.
8 - The resistors appear to be simple carbon film resistors. Probably
OK, but for another penny you could get flameproof resistors. (Always
a nice consideration around fuel.)

I will check it out, the resistors seem to be at about 70 degrees C.
9 - I cannot see the rating on the 110V cable. It "looks" like
standard "SO-type" cord, which of course is an indoor cable and not
rated for outdoor or UV exposures. Of course, that's an NEC rating,
not DOT, or whatever Standard might be applicable here(?).

The 110v cable will be only used for battery charging, not when riding
the trailer.
10 - Will the transformer be fused, and will the 110V ground connect
to the vehicle's 12V ground? In other words, is the isolation of these
two systems totally dependent on the HiPot testing of whatever
transformer you are using, and do you know what that rating actually
is? I don't even want to think about the condition of a hot chasis
and a weak ground, or a loop if the trailer happens to touch the
building structure while charging under fault conditions. Or, if the
trailer is somehow grounded to earth and a fault doesn't clear on the
charging circuit branch breaker. (Or, if the neutral to the building
lifts, etc...)

The transformer acts as a counterweight so that the box does not fall
off the table. :) It has no place in the finished product.
11 - Speaking of DOT, who cares if the bulbs & fixtures are DOT
rated? Everyone here knows the DOT has never laid eyes on this
thing..., so it's totally unfair to intimate their seal of approval.
At least on a systems-level.

I am not sure, here, but all clearance/rear lights on the trailer are
DOT approved.

12 - The idea of dual use (i.e., electronics & glove box / storage) is
a novel idea. Ideally, this would have separate access doors or
panels, etc... At the very least, there should be a non-conductive
cover (and appropriate warning signage) on all exposed 110V.

No exposed 110V.
As well
as a rigid divider of some sort between the compartments. Possibly
something fire rated, depending on what you might want to store inside
this thing. Which brings up another issue:

13 - Have you considered the possibility of liquids being stored and
what might happen if they leak on the unprotected barrier strip
terminal block? Like a lead-acid battery or...[use imagination]

Anyway, I think you get the point.
I completely agree that wiring trailer lights is trivial.
And probably well within the skill set of everyone here.

My point is:

I've seen enough injury accidents, fatalities and "near-misses" to
CONVINCE me that things are NEVER as trivial as they first seem to
be. And further, that when one of these "gotcha's" does bite you in
the _ _ _, you can always go back and figure out what you could have
done differently to better protect life and property.

I've said my peace. You can agree or disagree.
And I'm truly not looking for royalties on any of my above
suggestions! (Feel free to incorporate!.)

I appreciate.
Sorry. One more thing. You mentioned there would be a battery in
the trailer box too. If this is a standard lead-acid battery, the
charging space needs to be ventillated. (Was this going in the
cabinet too?) And of course, the charge would need to be regulated
somehow to prevent overcharging, loss of electrolyte, release of
explosive gases, etc... But I'm sure you knew all that.

I guess it is proper to put the battery outside the box.
Sorry. One more: What if you have to jump start the truck with the
trailer connected? Is this a problem? (From a harness
current-carrying point of view.)

Should not be a problem, worst case, disconnect a trailer.


u
 
G

Gunner

The "plugged in" idea is a good one, but I wouldn't use LEDs to
indicate "brake light powered", because it doesn't tell you about
the condition of the actual brake light bulb itself. A little current
sensor in one of the leads, and a comparator, and drive the LEDs with
that. :)

Or mount little reflectors so you can see the actual brake lights. :)

Good Luck!
Rich


or a short bit of fiber optic cable fed into the back of the lamp
housing

Gunner

Political Correctness

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority and
rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible
to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 
M

mpm

u -

Is there any 110 inside the box?
If not, you might consider a different style connector.
People see a standard cord and immeditely think house current.

Just a thought.

-mpm
 
M

mpm

u -

For the 110 cord, you might also consider one of those NEMA style
twist lock receptacles.
These could be flush mounted to the box, and then you'd have no cord
hanging out!!

I'm thinking a NEMA L5-20R twist lock here.....
That's still 110V, but much less common in a residential environment,
and thus, much less likely that someone is accidentally going to
connect 110 volts to this thing. (I would still search out a low-
voltage connector if that's what the design calls for - even if low-
voltage / high current.) It is just safer in my opinion.

If you did go with a twist-lock, you could make-up a small adapter
cord if you needed to charge it away from "home base".
I did not realize the xfmr was not going inside the box.

-mpm
 
I

Ignoramus799

I am going to use 110v for one purpose only, to run a hardwired (no
exposed wires) battery "smart trickle charger" when the trailer is in
my driveway. So I cannot see much risk of damage here.

i
 
M

mpm

I am going to use 110v for one purpose only, to run a hardwired (no
exposed wires) battery "smart trickle charger" when the trailer is in
my driveway. So I cannot see much risk of damage here.

I don't understand...

In the photo, the box has a standard (110-volt) type plug hanging out
about 10-12 inches or so, clamped with a Romex fitting. You later
state the transformer is not going in the box.

So what "IS" in the box? And is it going to run on 110 or something
else?

And "IF" it's something else, what will happen when some idiot
(unknown to you or I) tries to plug this thing into the nearest wall
socket.

That is my (safety-related) concern & question.

-mpm
 
I

Ignoramus799

I don't understand...

In the photo, the box has a standard (110-volt) type plug hanging out
about 10-12 inches or so, clamped with a Romex fitting. You later
state the transformer is not going in the box.

So what "IS" in the box? And is it going to run on 110 or something
else?

I am going to put in a small 1.5A 110v battery smart charger, in the
box, and hardwire it to that 110v cable. Nothing else is going to be
connected to 110v. If some idiot plugs it into 110v, the small smart
charger will be activated. That's all.

i
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

The "plugged in" idea is a good one, but I wouldn't use LEDs to
indicate "brake light powered", because it doesn't tell you about
the condition of the actual brake light bulb itself. A little current
sensor in one of the leads, and a comparator, and drive the LEDs with
that. :)

Or mount little reflectors so you can see the actual brake lights. :)

Good Luck!
Rich
Put a light activated transistor switch in the tail-light that
switches the "monitor" led on the box, or get a bunch of Fibre cable
and run fiber optics monitors instead of LED.
 
C

Curt Welch

jasen said:
I ran an ordinary 20ma red LED off a 5v supply once, with no series
resistor, just to see what would happen. It passed about 100ma and
lasted more than an hour.

I've seen LEDs run at 500 ma and not burn out. I didn't keep it running to
see how long it would last - but they can accept a lot more current than
what they are rated for - at least for short periods.
 
E

ehsjr

Ignoramus3585 said:
Thanks. Wiring up trailer lights is not complicated and does not allow
for any mistakes (they either work right, or they do not and it is
obvious).

What I want, is, first, to have a nice box with terminals, second, an
ability to add a trailer mounted battery that can be charged in
different ways, and third, LED lights that show me status of brakes
and trailer, so that I can double check that everything is working,
from my truck's cabin, using a rearview mirror.

i

Nice welding job. I wonder where you got the welder.
:) :) :)

How did you flip the trailer body over & back?

I like the pictures!

Ed
 
I

Ignoramus799

Nice welding job. I wonder where you got the welder.
:) :) :)

I have a hobart cyber tig that I modified and installed a
microcontroller programmed in BASIC.

The source code is GNU copyrighted.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/11-New-Rectifier/source.txt

How did you flip the trailer body over & back?

When I brought it in, I used just a chain hoist. When I made a frame
on the upside down bed, I used a shop crane to lift the tongue, and
chain hoist to lift the rear, and two sheave block to keep it stable.
I like the pictures!

thanks

i
 
Top