Looking for schematics for Fire-Lite MS-424A

[alarman]

In Pa. we have a catch all law called risking a catastrophe.
and if he did put such a board in service and it failed and caused
major damage ,injury or death he would be facing felony charges if AHJ
so desired.
This law also effects professionals who fail to notify or otherwise
fail to stop a problem from happening that is with in there power.
So yes it is other peoples buisness who posts what on this board .
So as a professional I posted the approriate response with out getting
nasty.


I still repair industrial electronic boards mostly power supplies for
equiptment no longer made or supported but nothing which is lifesafety
oriented or would pose a hazard when it fails.,

Oh, jeez. Get over yourself.

 

[Doug]

I still repair industrial electronic boards mostly power supplies for
equiptment no longer made or supported but nothing which is lifesafety
oriented or would pose a hazard when it fails.,

So how exactly do you accomplish that Nick, you repair an obsolete PSU,
(which is one of the things the OP wants to do). Six months later the PSU
fails, overheats and sets the building on fire, how do you determine that
you haven't caused or contributed to that hazard?

Doug

 

[Crash Gordon]

It will get pointed, but the last one making the unauthorized repairs will
probably get the worst whippin'.



--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Doug]

It will get pointed, but the last one making the unauthorized repairs will
probably get the worst whippin'.

It'll be the one with the deepest pockets.

Doug

 

[Jim]

So how exactly do you accomplish that Nick, you repair an obsolete PSU,
(which is one of the things the OP wants to do). Six months later the PSU
fails, overheats and sets the building on fire, how do you determine that
you haven't caused or contributed to that hazard?

Doug

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Mr Kotta, Mr. Kotta.

I know, I know ......

You don't, because the evidence gets burned up in the fire ?? ;-)

 

[nick markowitz]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Mr Kotta, Mr. Kotta.

 I know, I know ......

You don't, because the evidence gets burned up in the fire ??  ;-)

The boards I repair are with in metal cans very little chance of a
fire getting out. even if it does still not much to catch fire on shop
floor and chance of board burning up is nill when properly fused and
grounded thats the way these machines are designed to be repairable .
power surges are a bigger risk.Its try and fix a board or spend
$300,000 for a new CNC machine.
Machinery repair with in industry is an accepted practice and has been
going on as long as machines have been built
when a contactor or motor starter goes bad should we relace the coils
and heaters or should we throw the whole unit out. i think not. how
about motor should we send it out to a rewind shop or throw it out.
some factorys have electronic techs that all they do is trouble shoot
and repair machines and there boards.
and believe it or not many times it can be forensically be told what
went wrong in a machine. remember i also work as an fire
investigator.

Now in a plant would i repair a board on a crane / hoist or a furnace
or heater no way. a production machine on the floor yes and the
newer equipment
we no longer do. The boards are replaced becuase they are getting too
complicated and expensive to repair like the new generation of mig /
tig welders and plazma cutters. many have SMD components and Im not
spending $3000.00 for a soldering outfit.

 

[JoeRaisin]

In Pa. we have a catch all law called risking a catastrophe.
and if he did put such a board in service and it failed and caused
major damage ,injury or death he would be facing felony charges if AHJ
so desired.
This law also effects professionals who fail to notify or otherwise
fail to stop a problem from happening that is with in there power.
So yes it is other peoples buisness who posts what on this board .
So as a professional I posted the approriate response with out getting
nasty.

Good point - I let my emotion carry the day - I probably could have said
the same thing without getting personal. For that I would apologize for
the way I said what I said. But the sentiment stands.

 

[Patrick Finnegan]

No, he wants to experiment so he can more readily troubleshoot the board
later.  Why would he need to do that if he wasn't planning on field repairs?

Because some idiots like me collect these things for the fun of it.
If you don't believe me, try searching YouTube for videos of people
demonstrating them. These panels are discontinued, and hardly state-
of-the-art, it's not like I'm asking for schematics on a Simplex 4100,
which is a current product (and much more complex).

He said he had repaired fire alarm systems for a past job - how do you
know he wasn't the maintenance man at some church?

FWIW, I've installed and repaired systems (down to board-level repairs
when we could obtain schematics) while working for Purdue University
as a student. If that scares you, well, I don't know what to say.
What I've got is the "bad" systems that I purchased from Purdue's
surplus outlet. I'll probably go talk to my old coworkers to see if
there are any schematics in the shop, considering that it seems like
I'm not going to get anything useful out of here.

Yeah, a solder job done on a garage work-bench is always as solid as one
done in a factory setting.

Who says that I don't have the proper tools like a temperature
controlled iron, proper DVM and o'scope, and other tools that they'd
have in the factory. And, if we pretend that I were going to use
these in a "life safety" situation (which I've already said that I'm
not), who's to say that the person at the factory is going to do a
better job at the repair that I am? I certainly would rather trust my
own life to something that I repaired than something that was repaired
by a $2/day worker in the far-east. I've worked with crappy, lazy
repair techs, and am just as disgusted by them as Frank said he is.

The only thing they have over me is insurance, and troubleshooting
experience (and the appropriate service manuals). If I get service
manuals, and am insured (I don't know, maybe if I were doing this as a
business and finished getting my PE), that would put me basically on
the same level as a factory repair, wouldn't it?

I'll admit I assumed the worst case scenario, so if the OP can assure us
that I have it wrong and these refurbished boards will NEVER end up
installed in a life-safety situation then I'll be happy to apologize.

But it's kind of a sad statement that someone risking the lives of
people we don't know is no concern of ours.

Ok, but you have no evidence that I was going to use this information
in such a way, you just blindly assumed it..

Pat

 

[alarman]

Because some idiots like me collect these things for the fun of it.
If you don't believe me, try searching YouTube for videos of people
demonstrating them. These panels are discontinued, and hardly state-
of-the-art, it's not like I'm asking for schematics on a Simplex 4100,
which is a current product (and much more complex).


FWIW, I've installed and repaired systems (down to board-level repairs
when we could obtain schematics) while working for Purdue University
as a student. If that scares you, well, I don't know what to say.
What I've got is the "bad" systems that I purchased from Purdue's
surplus outlet. I'll probably go talk to my old coworkers to see if
there are any schematics in the shop, considering that it seems like
I'm not going to get anything useful out of here.


Who says that I don't have the proper tools like a temperature
controlled iron, proper DVM and o'scope, and other tools that they'd
have in the factory. And, if we pretend that I were going to use
these in a "life safety" situation (which I've already said that I'm
not), who's to say that the person at the factory is going to do a
better job at the repair that I am? I certainly would rather trust my
own life to something that I repaired than something that was repaired
by a $2/day worker in the far-east. I've worked with crappy, lazy
repair techs, and am just as disgusted by them as Frank said he is.

The only thing they have over me is insurance, and troubleshooting
experience (and the appropriate service manuals). If I get service
manuals, and am insured (I don't know, maybe if I were doing this as a
business and finished getting my PE), that would put me basically on
the same level as a factory repair, wouldn't it?


Ok, but you have no evidence that I was going to use this information
in such a way, you just blindly assumed it..

Pat

Forget it. These guys apparently feel threatened by you.

 

[Gordonjcp]

Yeah, a solder job done on a garage work-bench is always as solid as one
done in a factory setting.

In almost all circumstances, yes. Roughly 50% of the equipment that
comes across
my workbench (mostly fairly delicate medical instrumentation, some
audio equipment)
has failed due to dodgy soldering at the factory. I have *never* had
a repair bounce because
of my soldering. Actual component failures are rare, except where the
equipment has been
severely abused.

I'll admit I assumed the worst case scenario, so if the OP can assure us
that I have it wrong and these refurbished boards will NEVER end up
installed in a life-safety situation then I'll be happy to apologize.

But it's kind of a sad statement that someone risking the lives of
people we don't know is no concern of ours.

How do you know he's risking the life of *anyone*? Perhaps he wants a
fire alarm panel for his garden shed, or something.

I would be deeply unhappy about an alarm "engineer" who was not
familiar with the equipment right down to component level coming
anywhere near my house ;-)

If you're content to be a part-swapper, that's fine. Just don't call
yourself an engineer.

Gordon

 

[JoeRaisin]

Because some idiots like me collect these things for the fun of it.
If you don't believe me, try searching YouTube for videos of people
demonstrating them. These panels are discontinued, and hardly state-
of-the-art, it's not like I'm asking for schematics on a Simplex 4100,
which is a current product (and much more complex).




FWIW, I've installed and repaired systems (down to board-level repairs
when we could obtain schematics) while working for Purdue University
as a student. If that scares you, well, I don't know what to say.
What I've got is the "bad" systems that I purchased from Purdue's
surplus outlet. I'll probably go talk to my old coworkers to see if
there are any schematics in the shop, considering that it seems like
I'm not going to get anything useful out of here.




Who says that I don't have the proper tools like a temperature
controlled iron, proper DVM and o'scope, and other tools that they'd
have in the factory. And, if we pretend that I were going to use
these in a "life safety" situation (which I've already said that I'm
not), who's to say that the person at the factory is going to do a
better job at the repair that I am? I certainly would rather trust my
own life to something that I repaired than something that was repaired
by a $2/day worker in the far-east. I've worked with crappy, lazy
repair techs, and am just as disgusted by them as Frank said he is.

The only thing they have over me is insurance, and troubleshooting
experience (and the appropriate service manuals). If I get service
manuals, and am insured (I don't know, maybe if I were doing this as a
business and finished getting my PE), that would put me basically on
the same level as a factory repair, wouldn't it?




Ok, but you have no evidence that I was going to use this information
in such a way, you just blindly assumed it..

Pat

And I said as much in my second to last paragraph. I also said that I
would apologize if I were wrong - So I apologize.

 

[JoeRaisin]

In almost all circumstances, yes. Roughly 50% of the equipment that
comes across
my workbench (mostly fairly delicate medical instrumentation, some
audio equipment)
has failed due to dodgy soldering at the factory. I have *never* had
a repair bounce because
of my soldering. Actual component failures are rare, except where the
equipment has been
severely abused.




How do you know he's risking the life of *anyone*? Perhaps he wants a
fire alarm panel for his garden shed, or something.

I would be deeply unhappy about an alarm "engineer" who was not
familiar with the equipment right down to component level coming
anywhere near my house ;-)

If you're content to be a part-swapper, that's fine. Just don't call
yourself an engineer.

Gordon

1: The sad statement I referred to was one that basically dismissed the
idea of human lives being at risk and reduced the issue to one of
insurance coverage.

2: I never claimed to be an engineer - so get over yourself.

3: While in the Marines I worked in shops where we repaired our
equipment (and the associated test equipment) at the component level
(The MOS I was in was one of the last in the military to do so). I also
worked in the anti-tank units that used that equipment. When a piece
failed out in the field I often had a good idea of just what was wrong
but did I try to replace components out in the field? - No.

There is a time and place for component repair. In the field isn't one
of them. If you can pump UL Approved equipment out of your garage then
good on you - go for it. If not - don't.

Personally, I wouldn't want an engineer anywhere near my home. A solid
installation is one best kept simple. Something engineers have a hard
time doing.

 

[JoeRaisin]

Forget it. These guys apparently feel threatened by you.

Not really. I just know what it feels like when one's actions (or
inaction) cause someone to be hurt. In my case it was someone close to
me that was hurt but that doesn't make it okay just because you don't
personally know the folks you are putting at risk.

Thankfully, that isn't the case here so once again, I offer my apology
to the OP.

 

[Petem]

What happens if a brand new board, power supply, smoke detector or any
other component fails?
The same thing, the finger gets pointed at everyone.

Doug

And then we can turn to UL that stated the panel/power supply/ smoke
detector or any other component good to go..

But how many time did that happen? and is it a good reason to let someone
play with poeple life?

 

[alarman]

Not really. I just know what it feels like when one's actions (or
inaction) cause someone to be hurt. In my case it was someone close
to me that was hurt but that doesn't make it okay just because you
don't personally know the folks you are putting at risk.

Thankfully, that isn't the case here so once again, I offer my apology
to the OP.

I know about your loss, Joe, and I'm sorry for that. I know that you are a
lot more sensitive to fire alarm issues that most of us.

 

[Crash Gordon]

UL doesn't inspect every piece sold, it just give listing to one unaltered
design that passes their inspections.

--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Petem]

exactly we have at least the chance to say that since it was ul listed it
should have worked..

but what can we say when someone tamper with a panel? NOTHING...

 

[Crash Gordon]

I agree...I guess I misread your Spanish



--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Frank Olson]

I agree...I guess I misread your Spanish

Now ya done it!

 

[Petem]

Sorry, I'll go practicing my German, maybe it will help a bit.. ;-)