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Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries

R

Roy L. Fuchs

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

...


...

Hardening doesn't reduce steel's coefficient of thermal expansion.

There are reasons that steel is used in the making of a ball
bearing, dumbass. Low thermal expansion rates is only one reason.
 
F

Floyd L. Davidson

Jerry Avins said:
You're right, of course, but it hadn't occurred to me. Parallel
batteries are as iffy as parallel diodes. Ballast resistors can force
load sharing, but that's lousy design.

More ignorance. Parallel strings are *common* with large
capacity systems. No "ballast resistors" needed.

It is a very effective design.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

...


It has less rise over ambient when the weather is cold, that's all.

It also has ENOUGH rise internally such that all these claims of it
being a better conductor when cold get nullified.

Get a clue.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

...


And from your remote armchair, you do? You seem like one of those who
say, "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts."

As soon as you express some valid facts, you may find me in
agreement with them.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

So have I. Did you miss "spontaneous"? A sustained /external/ short will
often explode one.

Yet your retarded ass wants to have us believe that placing a short
on a battery in the cold is going to have a benefit, and is safe?

You are beyond left field, dude.
 
J

JoeSP

Roy L. Fuchs said:
There are reasons that steel is used in the making of a ball
bearing, dumbass. Low thermal expansion rates is only one reason.

Nearly a total lack of knowledge in this exchange.
 
F

Floyd L. Davidson

Wow, somebody agrees with me :)

That is a meaningless agreement! Compared to the internal
resistance (see below for a nice round figure), the load
resistance provided by a set of pliers will not remain low for
very long. The heat dissipated internally to the battery will
be dispersed (granted at a relatively slow rate) to the entire
battery, and will have relatively small effect. The
significantly higher heat dissipated in the pliers does not have
a large mass to absorb it, and will quickly result in a *very*
*large* temperature rise for the pliers.

In essence, before the battery gets warm, you'll burn your
hands, which will cause your grip on the pliers to loosen,
allowing higher resistance and possibly even a loss of
continuity. That would result in arcing and a possible
explosion added to the burnt hands.
The Exide site says their ORB78DT84 auto battery can deliver 770
"cold cranking amps" for 30 seconds at 0 F at 1.2 volts per cell,
ie 7.2 volts at the terminals. That makes the internal resistance
about (12-7.2)/770 = 0.00623 ohms... 770^2x0.00623x30/3600x3.412
= 105 Btu, which might warm the battery up to 0+105/15 = 7 F...

7 degrees at 0F is of no significance, even if that were an
accurate calculation. But it isn't, because that heat would
be distributed throughout the large mass of the battery, not
some unit sized portion of it (which is assumed by that faulty
equation).
 
J

Jerry Avins

Roy said:
You obviously know nothing about the term conventions used in motor
manufacture or mag wire manufacture.

When I worked at RCA, it was the largest consumer of magnet wire in the
world. The wire we bought was either varnished, or double varnished.
Calling it "shellac" is as illiterate as calling aluminum foil "tin
foil", or sheet iron "tin". http://www.empireindny.com/Main/pumps.html's
item #3 illustrates a typical manufacturer's usage. ("Windong" aside.)

http://www.essexgroup.com/Products_Services/Magnet_Wire/glassfib.asp has
another reference to varnish. Show me one to shellac or a spec that
allows it.

Jerry
 
J

Jerry Avins

Roy said:
There are reasons that steel is used in the making of a ball
bearing, dumbass. Low thermal expansion rates is only one reason.

You snipped your claim that I responded to:
"A ball bearing is hardened steel, and it will NOT shrink significantly
in this scenario... at all."

You're getting too worked up. For your own good: plonk.

Jerry
 
J

Jerry Avins

Floyd said:
More ignorance. Parallel strings are *common* with large
capacity systems. No "ballast resistors" needed.

It is a very effective design.

The operative word is "large". Ballast resisters, constituting lousy
design, are not used. Frequent maintenance inspections are the rule,
with individual strings being taken off line and their terminal voltages
checked. In very large systems, a coulomb meters is in series with each
string. Parallel battery packs are a bad idea in a closet in the back
office, where somebody comes around once a month to make nice.

Jerry
 
F

Floyd L. Davidson

Jerry Avins said:
The operative word is "large". Ballast resisters, constituting lousy
design, are not used. Frequent maintenance inspections are the rule,
with individual strings being taken off line and their terminal voltages
checked. In very large systems, a coulomb meters is in series with each
string. Parallel battery packs are a bad idea in a closet in the back
office, where somebody comes around once a month to make nice.

What a bunch of mumbo jumbo!

It is a very effective design, and commonly used, even for
unattended locations where someone comes around every few
months...
 
F

Floyd L. Davidson

Two facts stated,

1) the composition of a ball bearing is hardened steel,
and

2) hardened steel will not shrink significantly in this
scenario.

An unrelated fact that has nothing to do with the above facts,
or with this discussion.
You snipped your claim that I responded to:

You posted no valid response, and instead stated an unrelated
fact that was never in contention and has no logical
significance for the discussion.
"A ball bearing is hardened steel, and it will NOT shrink significantly
in this scenario... at all."

You're getting too worked up. For your own good: plonk.

You should have run away long before this. It's too late,
you've already made too many statements that cannot be backed
out of.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

Nearly a total lack of knowledge in this exchange.
I'd say that you eccentricity in this matter far exceeds mine.

Ever heard of Cincinnati Milacron?

I knew about 100,000th inch fits and tolerances at age 8, way back
in 1968. I think I can handle Crazy Mr. Cold Bearing Boy.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

You snipped your claim that I responded to:
"A ball bearing is hardened steel, and it will NOT shrink significantly
in this scenario... at all."

You're getting too worked up. For your own good: plonk.

The only thing more retarded than your position on this pliers across
the battery thing is the fact that you think that your kill filter
edit announcement means a goddamned thing.

You are truly retarded.
 
R

Roy L. Fuchs

The operative word is "large". Ballast resisters, constituting lousy
design, are not used. Frequent maintenance inspections are the rule,
with individual strings being taken off line and their terminal voltages
checked. In very large systems, a coulomb meters is in series with each
string. Parallel battery packs are a bad idea in a closet in the back
office, where somebody comes around once a month to make nice.

What a dope, you are.

Coulomb meters? Hahahaha!
 
N

no one that you know

Trus me when it's minus forty it takes more than a few seconds to cook a
starter.........but thank you for your concern
 
D

Don Klipstein

You do not know what you tried, nor did you observe the results
correctly enough to know what occurred.

Is this "disinformation" by someone who not long ago had as an argument
a complaint of top posting by an opponent where the arguments are supposed
to be technical and based on scientific facts and scientific observations?

This lends credence to a past post maybe last month claiming that
Roy L. Fuchs is/was actually someone that I found to be so low that I only
found the cretin to look good when his/its opponent was the lower-still
infratroll Rod Speed!

Otherwise, post test methods and results that others can reproduce.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

I agree, and I'm not going to comment on whether it works or not.

That said, I would NEVER do such a thing. It's dangerous for numerous
reasons (big sparks under a hood are never good, grease can burn quite
easily).

I hope you would have found a better example...

Grease is not ignitable by sparks (not even microdroplets of molten
metal) until warmed past its flash point which is usually over 150 degrees
C. Heck, diesel oil has a lower flash point than grease in general, and
diesel oil has a higher flash point than kerosene, and kerosene is
supposed to have its flash point above 100 degrees F (37 degrees C to the
nearest degree).

Ever drop a lit match into a bucket of diesel oil? I would bet my life
that the match flame drowns!

If I was forced at gunpoint to drop a lit match into a fuel tank of a
diesel-fueled truck, my thoughts would be along the lines of disarming the
perpetrator while he is shocked by lack of catastrophic explosion! And I
would surely not complain about the cost of a replacement fuel filter for
the truck owner!

(Gasoline is a different story...)

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
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